The great AAS / PED's Debate

[tinytraps]

A friend of mine (who is against the use of AAS) once said the following to me, "I don't mind getting beating by someone on gear in Strongman, because I have the option to do the same. I would never do that but its up to me. But if someone beat me in Powerlifting and they were using I'd be pissed off". That statement kind of stuck with me given it came from a lifetime drugfree athlete.

Nate

And its a helluv alot more sweeter if you beat someone thats taking!!

Agreed, but it don't always go that way.....

Wikipedia states Coan won the IPF World Championships in 1996.

I'm sure Derek didn't enjoy standing on the second place dias and getting the silver medal in 1996 only to have it upgraded to gold further down the track. Not quite the same celebration for the win eh? :?

Have to agree with that, its a black mark on the sport. Great as Coan was his IPF world titles should be revoked after his positive test (I beleive he had 3 before he was banned??) . IMO if derek had stayed injury free eventually he would of out totalled the top guys fair and square.

[ThePman]

There's a whole lot that could be said about the incentives to use among competitive athletes in any sport. I won't bore everybody with the psychology and economics and game theory behind all of it; what it comes down to is that when there are big stakes, any and every advantage that can be used will be used.

It's like putting a steak in a tiger's pit, and then telling the tiger it's wrong to eat it. The tiger doesn't particularly care how moral it is to eat your steak. He can, so he will. The morality of cheating doesn't even enter the decision-making process. For humans, sub that with, say, a multi-million dollar sponsorship.

There's plenty of folks that apply the same thought process (knowingly or not) to any sort of contest you can name. Obviously it's not everybody, but sports being competitive by nature, it's not surprising to find that mindset to be very common.

[rimma]

Interesting you say that, as it reminds me of the "prisoner's dilemma" which is what I suspect you are alluding to Pman.

1. The best situation for everyone would be no-one cheating.

2. But like the prisoners in seperate cells, you don't know if everyone else is honouring the agreement.

3. So the best* option is to cheat just in case someone else is, and therefore level the playing field.

*in this hypothetical situation

[Riccardo]

Where are all the bodybuilders in this thread?

:pfft:

[tomsammce]

Riccado, there are no federations in NZ which drugtest, so no one is a drugcheat in nz bodybuilding. peter hardwic runs an inba show in taupo every year which is promoted as a natural event, i think its probably economically impossible for him to run a drug testing progrmme for his small event so there is no testing. still in pictures and through people i hear he esults ofthis competition every year and knowfor fact tht ther is always one or two people who do thisshow who are not natural. drug users do natural shos because they are not good enough to win against there peers so this the only way or thm to get a fist place.

you guys know who u are....

but no one can prove they are cheaing as there isno drug test.... so arethey cheating? it isone perons word aganst another with no drug test.

also the people on this thread saying they are natural... maybe they are not, have they been drug tested? if you have been drug tested an passed all it means is that you passed the drug test, deosnt mean u havnt used gear before that or aint using it now ortha you are natural..... define natural....

this is a never ending subject

[thatwaslight]

I though most bodybuilders were natural?

[ThePman]

Interesting you say that, as it reminds me of the "prisoner's dilemma" which is what I suspect you are alluding to Pman.

1. The best situation for everyone would be no-one cheating.

2. But like the prisoners in seperate cells, you don't know if everyone else is honouring the agreement.

3. So the best* option is to cheat just in case someone else is, and therefore level the playing field.

*in this hypothetical situation

That's it more or less.

Drug testing isn't 100% certain and drugs are easily available to anyone that wants them; therefore, if you want to compete in that pool of athletes, it's in your best interest to assume everyone is using them (judge based on capability, not intentions) and to act in your own best interest given that information (use drugs in spite of rules in place).

[Mrbig]

just on perfromance enhancers why is it that people can use all the equipment they want i.e skins,lifting aids, wrist bands that are meant to improve "performance" think of tiger woods who spent thousands on lasic eye surgery,michael phelps with the swim suits, bolts shoes etc

but aas,ped's which only aid to improve performance are fround upon plus as tom was saying just because you pass a test doesnt mean your clean all the time

[Ronin]

Just to take a slight tangent (but only slight, we're still talking about enhancing performance, just in a different arena).

Are your opinions regarding AAS the same as your opinions regarding the use of so-called "smart drugs" in schools? I realise that academic pursuits aren't exactly within the purview of this site, but I also know that there are several people on here with an academic/scientific background. And, like I said, we are discussing performance enhancement.

[ThePman]

Personally speaking, I'm all for human enhancement in the broadest sense. The issues with AAS and other PEDs in sport is a bit more complex and entangled as these things always are, but in the widest scope I don't have any problems with people improving themselves above and beyond the norm. That's the entire point of technology in the first place, and I don't see any particular reason for the body or mind to be off-limits.

[ohjoshua]

Interesting topic.

The funny thing is most users begin to think its all them after they have been on for a while.

[startinfromscratch]

do the westies who inject straight grapeseed oil instead of gear count as enhanced?

[thatwaslight]

do the westies who inject straight grapeseed oil instead of gear count as enhanced?

lmao! :clap:

[Mrbig]

Im all for getting to the top in anything however you can, but if something is banned because it enhances performance why are other things allowed even tho they wont enhance performance to the same extent the morals are the same

I mean it would be nice to know what the pros are taking not that thats the only reason their pro but just to put the claims people make about their drug use to rest also for top sports players to get off the dont take drugs bullshit when 95% of top athletes are all using some form of performance enhancer

[Daz69]

Are they a scourge on society, perhaps a gateway drug?

Steroid use has become very prevalent over the course of my lifetime... Certainly from when I started training back in the 70's & you knew of some one, that knew someone that took em.... Up to the present day, when just about everybody is taking something or other....

Up until the early 80's there were only about 5 of us taking stuff, in a town bigger than Wellington & Hamilton combined.......... (I'm in the UK)..... :cry:

Now you cant go in a gym without the majority being on, or off about to go on...

We have more Steroid users than Heroin adicts, although a massive difference on the social impact between the two. The want for another course of gear is nowhere near the craving for the next shot of Smack..

But social problem we have.... All those young lads out on a friday & saturday full of testosterone, fuelled with alcahol, or even worse GHB... Have a massive impact on our violent crime statistics.............

I've seen poor rookie cops straight out of college, late at night struggling to deal with some 17st deranged monster & his mates...........No bloody chance until a great big nightclub doormen comes over..!!!

So then the Riot van turns up...... The bloody Riot Police are Huge (yep they're on gear too)...!! So in a professional sense someone may have to consider a moral/career changing/threatening "Do I pin" decision, just to keep a level playing field.... without bringing sport into the equasion...

I dont think they are a gateway drug, as with common media perceptions all drugs are bad, if you do one you're gonna do em all.... I think if you'll stick a needle in your leg, there's a likelyhood you'll try other things...

But you don't have to do everything...

There is a massive difference between hard/soft recreational drugs... I think people can understand the difference between Crack Cocaine & Cocaine ...... Heroin & Marajuana.......... Methamphetamine & Speed....

Well thats another 20c.................

:wink:

[PeterDolan]

Are they a scourge on society, perhaps a gateway drug?

Steroid use has become very prevalent over the course of my lifetime... Certainly from when I started training back in the 70's & you knew of some one, that knew someone that took em.... Up to the present day, when just about everybody is taking something or other....

Up until the early 80's there were only about 5 of us taking stuff, in a town bigger than Wellington & Hamilton combined.......... (I'm in the UK)..... :cry:

Now you cant go in a gym without the majority being on, or off about to go on...

We have more Steroid users than Heroin adicts, although a massive difference on the social impact between the two. The want for another course of gear is nowhere near the craving for the next shot of Smack..

But social problem we have.... All those young lads out on a friday & saturday full of testosterone, fuelled with alcahol, or even worse GHB... Have a massive impact on our violent crime statistics.............

I've seen poor rookie cops straight out of college, late at night struggling to deal with some 17st deranged monster & his mates...........No bloody chance until a great big nightclub doormen comes over..!!!

So then the Riot van turns up...... The bloody Riot Police are Huge (yep they're on gear too)...!! So in a professional sense someone may have to consider a moral/career changing/threatening "Do I pin" decision, just to keep a level playing field.... without bringing sport into the equasion...

I dont think they are a gateway drug, as with common media perceptions all drugs are bad, if you do one you're gonna do em all.... I think if you'll stick a needle in your leg, there's a likelyhood you'll try other things...

But you don't have to do everything...

There is a massive difference between hard/soft recreational drugs... I think people can understand the difference between Crack Cocaine & Cocaine ...... Heroin & Marajuana.......... Methamphetamine & Speed....

Well thats another 20c.................

:wink:

Quality post Daz

[Pseudonym]

Now you cant go in a gym without the majority being on, or off about to go on...

Do you really think so, Daz? Maybe things are different in the UK, but I doubt that would be case in most gyms here. Or am I taking you too literally? Was that just an exaggeration for dramatic effect?!

[Dubble_D]

Now you cant go in a gym without the majority being on, or off about to go on...

Do you really think so, Daz? Maybe things are different in the UK, but I doubt that would be case in most gyms here. Or am I taking you too literally? Was that just an exaggeration for dramatic effect?!

Those you see at the gym every day (the usuals), wouldn't be surprised.

[Daz69]

Now you cant go in a gym without the majority being on, or off about to go on...

Do you really think so, Daz? Maybe things are different in the UK, but I doubt that would be case in most gyms here. Or am I taking you too literally? Was that just an exaggeration for dramatic effect?!

I'm talking about the UK.... I didnt see a Monster all the time I was in NZ...

Well I did actually, he was called Grant, in a protein shop in Hamilton, he asked me what I wanted? I said "I want what you're on" ... He tried to sell me protein powder..... :pfft: :pfft: :pfft:

Yeh.... Immage seems to be everything here, fast cars, designer clothes, with a body to match... Most young lads dont want to put the years in at the gym & think Roids are a quick fix... Most dont train properly, so you see some lumps & bumps, but little symetry & definition....

But we have our Monsters, most gyms have a few, they generally work in Security, or Nightclub doors... (or the Riot squad)... Massive and phenominaly strong...... I've seen a lad leg press 1020kgs in our local gym..

Makes my 500kgs look embaracing....

You can go out in any major citys night clubs & be garanteed to see literally hundreds of lads definately enhanced on something........

Most with tempers to match.....

:nod:

[Mrbig]

Now you cant go in a gym without the majority being on, or off about to go on...

Do you really think so, Daz? Maybe things are different in the UK, but I doubt that would be case in most gyms here. Or am I taking you too literally? Was that just an exaggeration for dramatic effect?!

you will be surprised at the number of people that are on stuff in nz gyms the thing is tho they dont train or eat properly so all they really get is stronger

but it called be all that grapeseed oil being sold :naughty:

[tinytraps]

Now you cant go in a gym without the majority being on, or off about to go on...

Do you really think so, Daz? Maybe things are different in the UK, but I doubt that would be case in most gyms here. Or am I taking you too literally? Was that just an exaggeration for dramatic effect?!

you will be surprised at the number of people that are on stuff in nz gyms the thing is tho they dont train or eat properly so all they really get is stronger

but it called be all that grapeseed oil being sold :naughty:

If they dont train or eat properly all there going to get is shrunken balls and bitch tits with nothing to show for it!!

[nate225]

Do you really think so, Daz? Maybe things are different in the UK, but I doubt that would be case in most gyms here. Or am I taking you too literally? Was that just an exaggeration for dramatic effect?!

you will be surprised at the number of people that are on stuff in nz gyms the thing is tho they dont train or eat properly so all they really get is stronger

but it called be all that grapeseed oil being sold :naughty:

If they dont train or eat properly all there going to get is shrunken balls and bitch tits with nothing to show for it!!

Thats a naive view Tinytraps...... they could get so much more...... like acne & male pattern baldness! :grin:

Where do I sign up?! :pfft:

[tomsammce]

Do you really think so, Daz? Maybe things are different in the UK, but I doubt that would be case in most gyms here. Or am I taking you too literally? Was that just an exaggeration for dramatic effect?!

you will be surprised at the number of people that are on stuff in nz gyms the thing is tho they dont train or eat properly so all they really get is stronger

but it called be all that grapeseed oil being sold :naughty:

If they dont train or eat properly all there going to get is shrunken balls and bitch tits with nothing to show for it!!

a little off topic, but if you sell to absolute tools who have been a member at a gym for a month, dont know what da f*ck they doing and think 2 bowls of chicken and rice, 1 mcdonalds combo a day and a shake b4 bed is how u get results then you can expect your gear to be called fake. these guys think they will look like kai greene and jay cutler just from popping a few pills and having a few shots.... fucking idiots.

[Daz69]

a little off topic, but if you sell to absolute tools who have been a member at a gym for a month, dont know what da f*ck they doing and think 2 bowls of chicken and rice, 1 mcdonalds combo a day and a shake b4 bed is how u get results then you can expect your gear to be called fake. these guys think they will look like kai greene and jay cutler just from popping a few pills and having a few shots.... fucking idiots.

Say it, how it is Tom.......

:pfft: :pfft: :pfft:

[Dontrunwithknives]

a little off topic, but if you sell to absolute tools who have been a member at a gym for a month, dont know what da f*ck they doing and think 2 bowls of chicken and rice, 1 mcdonalds combo a day and a shake b4 bed is how u get results then you can expect your gear to be called fake. these guys think they will look like kai greene and jay cutler just from popping a few pills and having a few shots.... fucking idiots.

Say it, how it is Tom.......

:pfft: :pfft: :pfft:

I lol'ed too :pfft: