Have I improved? Before After pics

[james123]

Yeah ive been eating quite a bit more ay same general food though

[samoan_muscle]

200gms of protein a day.........with that physique,........holy crap!!!!!

You don't give your body weight, but 200gms of protein a day is appropriate for someone with some serious muscle mass in the 100kg+ zone.

Cut back before you do your liver some serious damage. 1gm/kg of body mass is more than adequate for your first 3-5 months until you start developing some perceptible mass.

I bet your training regime involves every excercise ever publishes for 5 or more sets every day, or something just as extreme.

I'm not a particular proponent of DC training (Doggcrapp if you want to do a google search), but I'd say if you just use 3 straight sets (not rest -pause or drop sets) per muscle group following the DC programme & excercise selection, you'll probably make some noticable gains in the next 16-20 weeks or so.

Thats BS in my opinion...Liver damage??? Dude what have you been reading???? You mean kidneys right?

200gms of protein is f*ck all - I eat close to 500g a day most days and more if I can...

[Cammo]

I call BS on Oros's post as well ... pfft :roll:

[Oros]

Actually I have an enlarged liver with reduced liver function with regular bloods done to cover my point.

From the photos I figured about 50-55kg max - no info was given to indicate otherwise, so that would be approx 4gm/kg BW/day.....you tell me the possible health issues

200gms of protein a day has gone somewhere - definitely not to his gut/abs & obviously not to any noticable increase in muscle mass either.

It's quite easy to see why the general public don't take this sport seriously, when the majority of plonkers out there directly claiming to be BBers know FA about some of the effects of sustained overload on the human system.

But who knows you could be right, it could all be bs, it could have just been genetic, or it could have been due to me drenching my system with 300-500gm of protein per day for 3 years trying to hit the 100kg @ sub 10%BF mark, but either way I was fortunate, the reduced liver function showed up before permanent kidney damage/failure. Not all of us are Jono with a spare kidney on standby.

Next time you pull a sickie & visit the doc - actually ask for advice & info. You'll probably find their advice is as good, and definitely cheaper as an hourly rate, than that over priced sports nutritionalist.

Besides the occasional bloods, just to check, never harmed anyone

[samoan_muscle]

Actually I have an enlarged liver with reduced liver function with regular bloods done to cover my point.

From the photos I figured about 50-55kg max - no info was given to indicate otherwise, so that would be approx 4gm/kg BW/day.....you tell me the possible health issues

200gms of protein a day has gone somewhere - definitely not to his gut/abs & obviously not to any noticable increase in muscle mass either.

It's quite easy to see why the general public don't take this sport seriously, when the majority of plonkers out there directly claiming to be BBers know FA about some of the effects of sustained overload on the human system.

But who knows you could be right, it could all be bs, it could have just been genetic, or it could have been due to me drenching my system with 300-500gm of protein per day for 3 years trying to hit the 100kg @ sub 10%BF mark, but either way I was fortunate, the reduced liver function showed up before permanent kidney damage/failure. Not all of us are Jono with a spare kidney on standby.

Next time you pull a sickie & visit the doc - actually ask for advice & info. You'll probably find their advice is as good, and definitely cheaper as an hourly rate, than that over priced sports nutritionalist.

Besides the occasional bloods, just to check, never harmed anyone

Ah well sad one for you I guess - I suppose you were just unfortunate.

I on the other hand have been following this practice (300-500g Pro per day) for around 3 years now and am currently weighing 116kgs at 8.9% bodyfat...

so james123 - up to you what advice you chose to follow...obviously educate yourself through personal research on any health risks involved and make your own decision.

[james123]

Im taking your advice Samoan Muscle you have the pics to prove it and respect on this forum. Oros is talking shit everywhere ive read it says 1-1.5grams of protein to each pound of bodyweight. Thats just for beginners.

[Paul]

Too much protein fucked your liver No way I call BS as well ,Last time I spoke to a doctor regarding anything I do BB she told to much protein powder could give me problems with my eyes.Most Docs dont know shit about nutrtion f*ck half of them are hang up on BMI's and the like.

[2guns]

Oros is talking shit everywhere ive read it says 1-1.5grams of protein to each pound of bodyweight. Thats just for beginners.

im sure oros knows wat hes talking bout... and u are just a beginner

but u need carbs!!!!! look at u u are skinny! eat carbs! if yr just concerned about yr protein ull eat so much then shit yrself bud

also if u are taking lots of protein then drink lots of water too

[2guns]

Most Docs dont know shit about nutrtion f*ck half of them are hang up on BMI's and the like.

lol :pfft:

[Mike Zero]

Oros is talking shit everywhere ive read it says 1-1.5grams of protein to each pound of bodyweight. Thats just for beginners.

No need to say that...

[Oros]

Not an issue MZ.

Thats what forums are all about.

Atleast this forum is relatively friendly - some can be detrimental to your health!!!

People ask opinion, but give out limited info.

So others respond to inform of possible issues based on that limited info - but get shot down in a ball of flames.

Not everyone is going to agree with the responces, but atleast some might read, think and CONSIDER if it is an issue worth investigating

One good thing (for me anyway) - I received a pm suggesting I consider excessive intake of concentrated protein AND aminos as contributing to increased liver toxicity.

Can't help but wonder what type of response that could initiate?!!!

And TRUE,.......sometimes doctors do know shit, but they're always good to go to for that FREE REFERAL to the SPECIALIST

[Cammo]

Oros - were you taking any kind of liver aid while consuming all your protein (Milk thistle etc.)?

Was it the protein in your diet alone causing the problem or other factors as well?

I'm not being an ass here - just curious.

I know quite a few people that have been taking in stupid amounts of protein every day for years & I've never come across this problem (maybe if they're on gear & haven't covered pct properly but not nattys).

[Oros]

The potential possibilities are quite numerous,.....and this is where my "lack of info" comment comes back to bite me in the butt.

I've been training since the mid 80's, developments in producing whey protein powder concentrates & isolates, in fact all concentrated protein forms has come along in enormous leaps & bounds.

When my liver issue developed (early 90's) it COULD have been caused by the relatively large amounts of fat content still remaining in the whey,who knows...as I mentioned, also possibly genetics.

If you're a smoker, and you develop some form of cancer.......what is the first thing you & the docs are likely to blame?........For me, high protein intake causing "fatty liver syndrome" was the only thing the doc's could target as a probable cause.

People (BBers) were not fully aware until relatively recently, that protein breakdown required substantially higher water intake because of the increased water loss due to excretion of nitrogen. (as protein metabolism increases, so does the risk of dehydration).......hell, it's highly likely I was'nt drinking enough water...(or my ratio of Jack Daniels & ice was wrong)..

As a matter of interest, female BBers should be aware that excessive consumption and breakdown, and thus excretion of protein, has been shown to increase calcium loss, thus bone health is a risk consideration.

[Pseudonym]

Oros is talking shit everywhere ive read it says 1-1.5grams of protein to each pound of bodyweight. Thats just for beginners.

No need to say that...

Agreed. I've always been really proud of how you guys can disagree with each other without being rude. Sure, the forum's getting bigger now, but let's keep that friendly attitude going. Play nicely everyone.

Also, there are sure to be tons of studies on this proving or disproving your arguments. Let's see some evidence to back up the claims on both sides!

[Mo250]

just a couple of comments.

heavy resistance training elevates liver enzymes ( particulary ALT, AST).Only way to make that go away is to stop lifting.

When you tear down tissues you elevate enzymes from both heavy training and or cardio. if you're going to do some LFT take 2-3 days OFF lifitng and cardio and be OFF all supplements especially creatine for at least a week or more to get a baseline of what's normal without any thing skewing it and continue to get your followup draws done the same way.

when you're taking in a high protein in your diet you need to take in plenty of water. I think this was discussed before.

high protein intake causes increased calcium excretion, but there is no evidence- at least to my knowledge- that net calcium balance becomes more negative... which may indicate that a high protein diet increases calcium absorption in the small intestine.

[Mo250]

The potential possibilities are quite numerous,.....and this is where my "lack of info" comment comes back to bite me in the butt.

I've been training since the mid 80's, developments in producing whey protein powder concentrates & isolates, in fact all concentrated protein forms has come along in enormous leaps & bounds.

When my liver issue developed (early 90's) it COULD have been caused by the relatively large amounts of fat content still remaining in the whey,who knows...as I mentioned, also possibly genetics.

If you're a smoker, and you develop some form of cancer.......what is the first thing you & the docs are likely to blame?........For me, high protein intake causing "fatty liver syndrome" was the only thing the doc's could target as a probable cause.

People (BBers) were not fully aware until relatively recently, that protein breakdown required substantially higher water intake because of the increased water loss due to excretion of nitrogen. (as protein metabolism increases, so does the risk of dehydration).......hell, it's highly likely I was'nt drinking enough water...(or my ratio of Jack Daniels & ice was wrong)..

As a matter of interest, female BBers should be aware that excessive consumption and breakdown, and thus excretion of protein, has been shown to increase calcium loss, thus bone health is a risk consideration.

I persume they did an ultrasound to your liver. Did you have some sort of fatty liver diagnosed? it's common in heavy drinkers and people who eat a ton of junk .

[james123]

Diet and Your Liver

Overview

Poor nutrition is rarely a cause of liver disease, but good nutrition in the form of a balanced diet, may help liver cells damaged by hepatitis viruses to regenerate, forming new liver cells. Nutrition can be an essential part of treatment. Many chronic liver diseases are associated with malnutrition.

Beware of "Nutritional Therapies"

Herbal treatments and alternative liver medicines need to undergo rigorous scientific study before they can be recommended. "Natural" or diet treatments and herbal remedies can be quite dangerous. Plants of the Senecio, Crotalaria and Heliotopium families, plus chaparral, germander, comfrey, mistletoe, skullcap, margosa oil, mate tea, Gordolobo yerba tea, pennyroyal, and Jin Blu Huan are all toxic to the liver.

Watch the Protein

To quickly determine your daily protein in grams, divide your weight in pounds by 2. Too much daily protein may cause hepatic encephalopathy (mental confusion). This occurs when the amount of dietary protein is greater than the liver's ability to use the protein. This causes a build up of toxins that can interfere with brain function. Protein is restricted in patients with clinical evidence of encephalopathy. However, controversy exists regarding the type of protein a diet should contain. Vegetable and dairy protein may be tolerated better than meat protein. Medications, such as lactulose and neomycin, may be used to help control hepatitis-related encephalopathy. Due to the body's need for proteins, protein restriction should only be undertaken with a doctor's advice.

Watch the Calories.

Excess calories in the form of carbohydrates can add to liver dysfunction and can cause fat deposits in the liver. No more than 30% of a person's total calories should come from fat because of the danger to the cardiovascular system. To figure out your daily calorie needs, you'll need a minimum of 15 calories a day for each pound you weight. Watch the Salt Good nutrition also helps to maintain the normal fluid and electrolyte balances in the body. Patients with fluid retention and swelling of the abdomen (ascites), or the legs (peripheral edema), may need diets low in salt to avoid sodium retention that contributes to fluid retention. Avoiding foods such as canned soups and vegetables, cold cuts, dairy products, and condiments such as mayonnaise and ketchup can reduce sodium intake. Read food labels carefully as many prepared foods contain large amounts of salt. The best-tasting salt substitute is lemon juice.

[Small]

As a matter of interest, female BBers should be aware that excessive consumption and breakdown, and thus excretion of protein, has been shown to increase calcium loss, thus bone health is a risk consideration.

can you jus explain this in a little more depth please? w articles would help too..

[Mo250]

Diet and Your Liver

Overview

Poor nutrition is rarely a cause of liver disease, but good nutrition in the form of a balanced diet, may help liver cells damaged by hepatitis viruses to regenerate, forming new liver cells. Nutrition can be an essential part of treatment. Many chronic liver diseases are associated with malnutrition.

Beware of "Nutritional Therapies"

Herbal treatments and alternative liver medicines need to undergo rigorous scientific study before they can be recommended. "Natural" or diet treatments and herbal remedies can be quite dangerous. Plants of the Senecio, Crotalaria and Heliotopium families, plus chaparral, germander, comfrey, mistletoe, skullcap, margosa oil, mate tea, Gordolobo yerba tea, pennyroyal, and Jin Blu Huan are all toxic to the liver.

Watch the Protein

To quickly determine your daily protein in grams, divide your weight in pounds by 2. Too much daily protein may cause hepatic encephalopathy (mental confusion). This occurs when the amount of dietary protein is greater than the liver's ability to use the protein. This causes a build up of toxins that can interfere with brain function. Protein is restricted in patients with clinical evidence of encephalopathy. However, controversy exists regarding the type of protein a diet should contain. Vegetable and dairy protein may be tolerated better than meat protein. Medications, such as lactulose and neomycin, may be used to help control hepatitis-related encephalopathy. Due to the body's need for proteins, protein restriction should only be undertaken with a doctor's advice.

Watch the Calories.

Excess calories in the form of carbohydrates can add to liver dysfunction and can cause fat deposits in the liver. No more than 30% of a person's total calories should come from fat because of the danger to the cardiovascular system. To figure out your daily calorie needs, you'll need a minimum of 15 calories a day for each pound you weight. Watch the Salt Good nutrition also helps to maintain the normal fluid and electrolyte balances in the body. Patients with fluid retention and swelling of the abdomen (ascites), or the legs (peripheral edema), may need diets low in salt to avoid sodium retention that contributes to fluid retention. Avoiding foods such as canned soups and vegetables, cold cuts, dairy products, and condiments such as mayonnaise and ketchup can reduce sodium intake. Read food labels carefully as many prepared foods contain large amounts of salt. The best-tasting salt substitute is lemon juice.

I think they have to be clear on the type of fats they are talking about. Also 30% is a very random number.

[Mo250]

Phytomedicine. 2005 Sep;12(9):619-24.Links

The efficacy of Liv-52 on liver cirrhotic patients: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled first approach.

Huseini HF, Alavian SM, Heshmat R, Heydari MR, Abolmaali K.

Department of Pharmacology, Institute of Medicinal Plants, No. 97, Bozorgmehr St., Ghods St., Enghelab Ave., Tehran, Iran. huseini_fallah@yahoo.com

Cirrhosis is the irreversible sequel of various disorders that damage liver cells permanently over time. Presently, the use of herbal medicines for prevention and control of chronic liver diseases is in the focus of attention for both the physicians and the patients; the reasons for such shift toward the use of herbals include the expensive cost of conventional drugs, adverse drug reactions, and their inefficacy. In the present study, the efficacy of herbal medicine Liv-52 (consisting of Mandur basma, Tamarix gallica and herbal extracts of Capparis spinosa, Cichorium intybus, Solanum nigrum, Terminalia arjuna and Achillea millefolium) on liver cirrhosis outcomes was compared with the placebo for 6 months in 36 cirrhotic patients referred to Tehran Hepatic Center. The outcome measures included child-pugh score, ascites, serum alanine aminotransferase (ALT), aspartate aminotransferase (AST), total billirubin, albumin, prothrombin time, platelet and white blood cells counts. The indices were recorded in all patients before and after 6 months of drug or placebo treatment. The results demonstrated that the patients treated with Liv-52 for 6 months had significantly better child-pugh score, decreased ascites, decreased serum ALT and AST. In placebo administered patients all the clinical parameters recorded at beginning of the study were not significantly different than after 6 months. We conclude that Liv-52 possess hepatoprotective effect in cirrhotic patients. This protective effect of Liv-52 can be attributed to the diuretic, anti-inflammatory, anti-oxidative, and immunomodulating properties of the component herbs.

PMID: 16194047 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Flex]

Diet and Your Liver

Overview

Poor nutrition is rarely a cause of liver disease, but good nutrition in the form of a balanced diet, may help liver cells damaged by hepatitis viruses to regenerate, forming new liver cells. Nutrition can be an essential part of treatment. Many chronic liver diseases are associated with malnutrition.

Beware of "Nutritional Therapies"

Herbal treatments and alternative liver medicines need to undergo rigorous scientific study before they can be recommended. "Natural" or diet treatments and herbal remedies can be quite dangerous. Plants of the Senecio, Crotalaria and Heliotopium families, plus chaparral, germander, comfrey, mistletoe, skullcap, margosa oil, mate tea, Gordolobo yerba tea, pennyroyal, and Jin Blu Huan are all toxic to the liver.

Watch the Protein

To quickly determine your daily protein in grams, divide your weight in pounds by 2. Too much daily protein may cause hepatic encephalopathy (mental confusion). This occurs when the amount of dietary protein is greater than the liver's ability to use the protein. This causes a build up of toxins that can interfere with brain function. Protein is restricted in patients with clinical evidence of encephalopathy. However, controversy exists regarding the type of protein a diet should contain. Vegetable and dairy protein may be tolerated better than meat protein. Medications, such as lactulose and neomycin, may be used to help control hepatitis-related encephalopathy. Due to the body's need for proteins, protein restriction should only be undertaken with a doctor's advice.

Watch the Calories.

Excess calories in the form of carbohydrates can add to liver dysfunction and can cause fat deposits in the liver. No more than 30% of a person's total calories should come from fat because of the danger to the cardiovascular system. To figure out your daily calorie needs, you'll need a minimum of 15 calories a day for each pound you weight. Watch the Salt Good nutrition also helps to maintain the normal fluid and electrolyte balances in the body. Patients with fluid retention and swelling of the abdomen (ascites), or the legs (peripheral edema), may need diets low in salt to avoid sodium retention that contributes to fluid retention. Avoiding foods such as canned soups and vegetables, cold cuts, dairy products, and condiments such as mayonnaise and ketchup can reduce sodium intake. Read food labels carefully as many prepared foods contain large amounts of salt. The best-tasting salt substitute is lemon juice.

Goddamn, who wrote this drivel? I'm guessing this information is intended for people who already have liver dysfunction not someone with a normal healthy liver.

[severe]

damn, too many scare tactics... I will stick to the advice of KFC! the colonel cant be wrong.