Rest days, How many are required for optimum growth ?

[big MAC]

I'm proud to say I know expensiveurine. :pfft:

I could a set of 100 reps to failure on whatever exercise. I would feel the burn, fatigue, maybe have a heart attack in the between....does that mean I'm training at a sufficient INTENSITY (a function of 1RM) to induce muscular hypertrophy?

Best quote of that all.

[Andrew]

I think I'll write a book about SHIT. Super-high-intensity-training

[2guns]

OMG!!!....... BORING!!

i think this thread has done its dash aye :roll:

[Marcus]

People will debate about the merits of one type of training over another, and it makes interesting reading. However at the end of the day everyone trains differently & ou just have to stick with what works for you.

This thread could be debated for years as there is no correct answer.

As you were...

[poos_n_wees]

:ditto:

IMO whatever your training program, as long as you progressively overload, manage fatigue/recovery and be consistent, you'll get results.

This is a kewl thread :grin:

[Cammo]

BEST THREAD EVER!!! :pfft:

[liftnbighurts]

Some of will already know the adverse effects of cortisol, for those that don't, then youre about to get a short lesson.

Cortisol is a bodybuilders worst nightmare, It is a hormone produced by our adrenal gland that is released into the blood stream when an individual is either physically or mentally stressed, among other negative effects cortisol has on the body, it breaks down bone, tendons and muscle tissue.

Its can also cause headaches, fatigue, depression, insomnia etc as well as supress testosterone.

So would you agree that once this hormone is released into the bloodstream that it is detrimental to anyone trying to gain mass? after all it is breaking down what you are desperately trying to build, right?.

So if I have a near miss car accident or some drunken idiot tried to fight me on saturday night, should I have a protein shake with carbs straight after? Cortisol is released regardless if you exercise or not. I doubt it would have a lot of impact on someone who is in positive calorie balance and has a positive nitrogen balance. If you're SO worried about cortisol release, just eat some freaken pro/carbs before you train.

Well the window of opportunity when performing intense physical exercise is believed to be 45-60 minutes before damaging amounts of cortisol are released into your bloodstream, wreaking havoc on your body.

Like BigMac said, we're often pulling 12hrs+ in the gym (that's 1hr-30mins during average single session with an average training loads) and we aren't getting smaller. No, we aren't using any "supplements".

Another Question: How many Big muscular long distance runners have you seen in your lifetime?

They are generally very skinny, why?

Because when running long distances for long periods, massive amounts of cortisol are released into their bodies when training and competing.

Apply that to any individual who is involved in professional long distance type events, marathon runners, tri athletes etc, you will never see a sprinters physique (big an muscular) in a long distance event, because a sprinters form of training and competing is based on short intense bursts of physical energy, their cortisol levels never reach a long distance runners levels so they are able to preserve any mass they currently have. Again heres proof of the negative effects that endurance type training has to muscle tissue etc, so why would these physical laws somehow be turned around because someone is lifting weights for over 1-2 hour sessions.

Theyre not, the same rules apply, no matter who you are, unless you are drug assisted long sessions of lifting weights(over the 1 hour mark) will have you spinning your wheels

Lol. Have you seen a high level sprinter train? Have you seen a high level distance runner train? Distance runners are skinny because they use a lot of kilojoules during (using different substrates for energy) their training and the fact there are different training adaptations between a sprinter and a long distance runner. (ie What Waldo said). Comparing those athletes and saying one is skinnier because of cortisol is dumb. Their training programs are different to suit their own sport, the adaptations will be different because adaptations are very specific to the training you're doing. Then you go comparing endurance training to resistance training.....what?!?!

Your eating is just as important if not more so than your training, you need to have a log that you use each week to monitor your progress, you will find that if you are growing and getting stronger each week

then its a good indication you are eating enough, if your strength has stagnated and your gains are non existent then its a good indication you are either overtraining or undereating or both.

So if one week I'm doing PB's in my training and then next week I can not even attempt the weight I did for a PB, am I overtrained? Come on man. There's more to progressive overload than just increasing your weight on a weekly basis. There will come a time where you won't be able to increase the weight on the bar.....will this mean that you're overtrained again? Or that you're just not eating enough? Or maybe you don't get enough sleep? By HITers logic, if my squat now is 185kg for 1RM, after a year if I use 2.5kg increase per week, then it would be 315kg at the end of the year. Somehow I'm starting to doubt that it will be.....MAYBE if I increased my calories intake by 1000 kcal each week I'd still get there and if not then I guess I'll be overtrained right?

And yet you don't post your training, because it's too dangerous or maybe because our eyes aren't intense enough to see it. HIT's been around for years and recieved it's share of critics, the main principles behind it are flawed.

It cant utililze any glycogen or glucose regardless of wether you manipulate carb,protein, fat ratios because it isnt there, eventually throughout the day your body will use it as fuel.

So now you are left with fat stores and muscle tissue.

Fat contains 9 cal per gram

Protein contains 4 cals per gram

Your body will tap into what is easier for it to break down and utilize which is protein that it derives from muscle tissue in the form of amino acids.

So…

You have just lost 500 cal worth of fuel in muscle tissue, if you continue training for weeks in this way then you will continue to loose muscle, not gain it.

Where are you getting all of this info from? Glucose isn't there? What?! If it wasn't "there" we'd be dead. Why would the emphasis of catabolism be on muscular protein, which has less energy (4kcals) compared to fat which has (9kcals)? Fat yields twice as much energy and is easier to break down metabolically than protein.

On another note, you mention training "intensely". When you're training using 6-8 reps to failure, it's not "intense". Intensity is a function of 1RM, to work out intensity you multiply your 1RM for a given lift by a given percentage that you want to attempt in your training. Intensity, in sport science, is NOT a feeling you get from doing a set of 6-8 reps to failure. I could a set of 100 reps to failure on whatever exercise. I would feel the burn, fatigue, maybe have a heart attack in the between....does that mean I'm training at a sufficient INTENSITY (a function of 1RM) to induce muscular hypertrophy?

Just because you tried so and so program, which was supposedly "high volume" (which you still haven't defined for me) and it didn't make you hyooge. Well gee, maybe it's not the high volume per se that's making you/keeping you small but the retard that wrote the program.

Again, HIT isn't something that came out last month in your muscle mag or whatever, it's been around for years and the philosophy behind it is flawed.

I think I'll write a book about SHIT. Super-high-intensity-training.

it was a typo i meant to put excess before the word glycogen...lol

as for the rest, do more research my friend...as for your attitude...you need to get out more, you are spending way too much time in that room of yours... :pfft:

I know for a fact that if we were face to face, you wouldnt be half the smartass you have been here

You should choose your words a little more wisely in future. :phear:

current goal: To get as big as humanly possible by october this year, then cut up for summer.

My aim is to get big, not pretty, hence the undefined arms.

total time spent in gym 5.8hrs over 3months

new gains on arms 2.5cm

total gains in this period including muscle memory on arms 4.5cm

total muscle gains overall 4.6 kg

total arm fexed high 42cm

weight 101.5kg

in kg (6 rep max)

current deds 120

squat 120

dbell curls 30

flat dbell press 30

shoulder press bbell 58

and still growing

splinter

[ExpensiveUrine]

it was a typo i meant to put excess before the word glycogen...lol

as for the rest, do more research my friend...as for your attitude...you need to get out more, you are spending way too much time in that room of yours... :pfft:

I know for a fact that if we were face to face, you wouldnt be half the smartass you have been here

You should choose your words a little more wisely in future. :phear:

splinter

LOL!! Can you point out where I have gone wrong and what exactly do I need to research. I critiqued your "facts" and all I get is an internet threat from someone who's in his 40's. Can you support your internet threat with something a bit more substatial, like a critique of my post.

P.S. I train at Gillies Ave in NewMarket, you're welcome to visit me anytime you like.

[big MAC]

Hilarious.

[Cammo]

it was a typo i meant to put excess before the word glycogen...lol

as for the rest, do more research my friend...as for your attitude...you need to get out more, you are spending way too much time in that room of yours... :pfft:

I know for a fact that if we were face to face, you wouldnt be half the smartass you have been here

You should choose your words a little more wisely in future. :phear:

current goal: To get as big as humanly possible by october this year, then cut up for summer.

My aim is to get big, not pretty, hence the undefined arms.

total time spent in gym 5.8hrs over 3months

new gains on arms 2.5cm

total gains in this period including muscle memory on arms 4.5cm

total muscle gains overall 4.6 kg

total arm fexed high 42cm

weight 101.5kg

in kg (6 rep max)

current deds 120

squat 120

dbell curls 30

flat dbell press 30

shoulder press bbell 58

and still growing

splinter

First of all I'd like to know the reason for the 2 log in names? :?

Do you have any 'before' pics - that one you posted really doesn't do you any justice - considering you're the expert on diet & nutrition, I would have thought you'd have worked out a diet plan that would give you the most lean muscle gains sparing fat gains - are these gains that you've been making lean muscle or Mcdonalds muscle? :pfft:

I'd like to know where you get all your info from......... actually, no I wouldn't

[ExpensiveUrine]

Watch out Cammo, splinter and Mike Mentzer are coming to your house for some INTENSE (in this case is NOT a function of 1RM) beating.

[juddy]

You should choose your words a little more wisely in future. :phear:

current goal: To get as big as humanly possible by october this year, then cut up for summer.

My aim is to get big, not pretty, hence the undefined arms.

total time spent in gym 5.8hrs over 3months

new gains on arms 2.5cm

total gains in this period including muscle memory on arms 4.5cm

total muscle gains overall 4.6 kg

total arm fexed high 42cm

weight 101.5kg

in kg (6 rep max)

current deds 120

squat 120

dbell curls 30

flat dbell press 30

shoulder press bbell 58

and still growing

splinter

Watch out EU, a man who ways over 100kg and squats 120kg lol :pfft: (hopefully its a front squat) is proberly worth keeping an eye on :grin:

[Andrew]

total time spent in gym 5.8hrs over 3months

do you like train once every blue moon or something?

[Paul]

hence the size he put on is more than likely fat

[poos_n_wees]

total time spent in gym 5.8hrs over 3months

new gains on arms 2.5cm

total gains in this period including muscle memory on arms 4.5cm

total muscle gains overall 4.6 kg

total arm fexed high 42cm

weight 101.5kg

How did you figure that 4.6kg you got for the overall muscle gains?

Sorry if you mentioned it somewhere else here.. but whats your diet like right now?

[waldo]

Agreed P+W, I don't see any bodyfat tests to help determine fat and lean mass levels.

[ExpensiveUrine]

:grin:

[ohjoshua]

Ok so if splinter didnt get a BF% test done before his 4.6kg muscle gains then im guessing he didnt get one done before his "lean mass loss" which he didnt pay his PT for.

It seams he is taking a quantative measure (body weight) and drawing qualative conclusions from this (body fat %) by his self perception.

Im not saying old look in the mirror test is rubish, but when attempting to prove or disprove a hypothesis perception should not be used to decifer qualative infomation.

ok some things to think about.

"In all aspects of life we are quick to form hypothesis. We will systmaticly find 'evidence' which confirms it and disregard 'evidence' which contridics it." pysc 104

keep in mind what one person preceives to be 'evidence' for there hypothesis may be preceived by another to be evidence for a contridictory hypothsis ( eg evidence against).

-nothing is certain

There is an exception to every rule (execpt this one)

(just a wee joke to finish)

mmm phylosiphy.

[Cammo]

it was a typo i meant to put excess before the word glycogen...lol

as for the rest, do more research my friend...as for your attitude...you need to get out more, you are spending way too much time in that room of yours... :pfft:

I know for a fact that if we were face to face, you wouldnt be half the smartass you have been here

You should choose your words a little more wisely in future. :phear:

current goal: To get as big as humanly possible by october this year, then cut up for summer.

My aim is to get big, not pretty, hence the undefined arms.

total time spent in gym 5.8hrs over 3months

new gains on arms 2.5cm

total gains in this period including muscle memory on arms 4.5cm

total muscle gains overall 4.6 kg

total arm fexed high 42cm

weight 101.5kg

in kg (6 rep max)

current deds 120

squat 120

dbell curls 30

flat dbell press 30

shoulder press bbell 58

and still growing

splinter

I think I found one of your training videos ........ nice 6 pack :pfft:

j/k :wink:

[Paul]

Ok so if splinter didnt get a BF% test done before his 4.6kg muscle gains then im guessing he didnt get one done before his "lean mass loss" which he didnt pay his PT for.

It seams he is taking a quantative measure (body weight) and drawing qualative conclusions from this (body fat %) by his self perception.

Im not saying old look in the mirror test is rubish, but when attempting to prove or disprove a hypothesis perception should not be used to decifer qualative infomation.

ok some things to think about.

"In all aspects of life we are quick to form hypothesis. We will systmaticly find 'evidence' which confirms it and disregard 'evidence' which contridics it." pysc 104

keep in mind what one person preceives to be 'evidence' for there hypothesis may be preceived by another to be evidence for a contridictory hypothsis ( eg evidence against).

-nothing is certain

There is an exception to every rule (execpt this one)

(just a wee joke to finish)

mmm phylosiphy.

WTF Speak england bro

[Marcus]

Splinter, why start a thread asking for everyones opinions & then try to prove everyone wrong? It just doesn't happen mate.

And now you've fucked yourself.

[juddy]

it was a typo i meant to put excess before the word glycogen...lol

as for the rest, do more research my friend...as for your attitude...you need to get out more, you are spending way too much time in that room of yours... :pfft:

I know for a fact that if we were face to face, you wouldnt be half the smartass you have been here

You should choose your words a little more wisely in future. :phear:

current goal: To get as big as humanly possible by october this year, then cut up for summer.

My aim is to get big, not pretty, hence the undefined arms.

total time spent in gym 5.8hrs over 3months

new gains on arms 2.5cm

total gains in this period including muscle memory on arms 4.5cm

total muscle gains overall 4.6 kg

total arm fexed high 42cm

weight 101.5kg

in kg (6 rep max)

current deds 120

squat 120

dbell curls 30

flat dbell press 30

shoulder press bbell 58

and still growing

splinter

I think I found one of your training videos ........ nice 6 pack :pfft:

j/k :wink:

LOL :pfft: :pfft: :pfft: :pfft: :pfft:

[Paul]

Splinter/liftingbighurts were are u mate we no your not training so how bout some rebuttal

[2guns]

WTF Speak england bro

:pfft:

ok, i think he gets the picture now tht no one agrees with his training style or what have you.

Splinter/liftingbighurts were are u mate we no your not training so how bout some rebuttal

hes probably created a new account and is hiding, this is wat i would have done :pfft: :pfft:

[liftnbighurts]

Hi guys, how’s your day going?

I’ve been on holiday and have just had a chance to read your replies to my post.

(O….M…..G) somebody hand me an anti anxiety tablet, my arms are shrinking. :oops:

Listen before you go on, I don’t claim to be an expert in any field of bodybuilding, what I write in these posts is not LAW you can either choose to agree with what I have written or you can disagree, the principles I discuss here are based on my personal years of research, applying different strategies through various programs I have purchased and through personal experience.If I feel there is a valid argument when someone questions what I have posted then I will respond accordingly.

But if you feel the need to be a smart-ass or use foul language when replying then im not interested in continuing to post in here.

I’ve got better things to do.

I am a family man and I often sit here when reading responses to my posts with my kids, so please use a bit of common sense.

And no im not hiding as someone suggested I think they blocked my username splinter so I couldn’t post anything under that name, hence the new name, and I was in a shopping mall (on holiday)so I couldn’t write to them to ask why it had been blocked.

Firstly expensiveurine, I actually put a smiley face where the guy spinning the stick is; it was my daughter that changed it before I had a chance to check it before she closed it down, (we were in a shopping mall) to teach you guys not to mess with her dad. :pfft:

And EU your original post was “way more abusive” but I guess the administrator had you edit it; I didn’t realize you had changed it, so I just quickly quoted it and posted my reply.

And if I was really trying to threaten you do you think I would have put “Lol” or any smiley faces in there at all ?

And as for your request to meet me at your gym…you’re a funny guy, I like you man..

If I wanted a street-fight I would grab a baseball bat and head off to the local pub and look for one, that’s not why I am here.

The fact is its just too easy to smack talk someone you know nothing about or cant see face to face, and in my opinion, its cowardly, so choosing your words wisely when posting a reply is common sense, you are dealing with people here, not a computer screen..

Looking back on my previous posts ill admit I was on the defensive when you guys were questioning my training, but that’s just me, unlike a lot of you guys in here, I have never been abusive or just pulled out part of someone’s post and put a smiley face next to it

, that would be childish and STUPID…

EU’s argument.

Admitly the post on cortisol regarding sprinters and long distance runners is a little over the top as obviously certain body types suit the particular type of sport but cortisol has a definite negative impact on endurance type sports, that’s all I was trying to say.

And yes if you get in a fight or a car crash etc cortisol can wreak havoc on your gains, because of a severe family crisis that lasted 2 yrs my stress levels went through the ceiling

My doctor advised me to use anti anxiety medication (but it just made me tired) to lower my stress levels to combat anxiety, anxiety can cause stress, stress whether physical or mental releases cortisol.

Even now I am aware of the negative impact cortisol has on my body and take the necessary preventative measures to insure my gains are protected.

Yes, it can be that detrimental to your mass building goals if you struggle to build muscle.

The truth is that most natural bbs just don’t realize the negative impact cortisol can have on their gains, especially when under extreme mental stress.

As for your comment on fat and how it is easier for it to be broken down for energy than muscle ?

Your body will tap into muscle before it will start burning fat, why do you think so many bodybuilders loose muscle when on a fat burning cycle?

In order to preserve as much muscle as possible they have to manipulate caloric intake combined with an effective form of cardio and weight training to preserve as much muscle as possible and burn fat, if it was that easy to burn just fat when on a cutting phase then getting ripped would be easy.

That’s why so many trainees turn to fat burning supplements to help with definition when cutting.

Your fat stores are your bodies natural defense mechanism against starvation, it is more desirable for your body to break down muscle than it is to breakdown fat because for survival reasons its preferred form of energy is muscle if there are no excess amounts of glucose present.

Muscle is metabolically active tissue, requiring a great deal of caloric energy just to maintain it. That's why your body will shed muscle if it thinks you are starving, not fat.

The original post was when a trainee asked about remaining on the same caloric intake on training day when trying to build muscle, my advice was to eat more on training day.

Andrew questioned it.

Remember this is an eating strategy to gain as much muscle as possible, not a strategy to keep fat at a minimum.

The more intense your training the more calories will be required on that day.

My training day is brutal hence the 1000cal extra on that day.

If I didn’t up my intake on this day I would loose muscle.

And no I don’t claim to be an expert on nutrition as someone else stated I just follow the universal law of energy in = energy out

If im wrong Andrew then please explain why.

And EU ,as for your post on 1 rep max and intensity ?

Intensity is just that, you can use intensity using 1 rep and you can use intensity performing 4-8reps, any higher than that and your intensity levels will begin to drop because of the energy expended on the first 8 reps.

So you can construct an amazingly brutal training session that centers around 4-8 reps.

And your comment on progressive overload, huh?

If you are not adding a least 1 more rep or at least ½ kg more each training session

then you are either undereating, overtraining or both, the only trainees who wont see progress on a regular basis are those who are either hovering at or have reached their true genetic potential. Which takes years to achieve anyway and by this stage you would be muscular.

Isolation exercises max out before compound movements because obviously the muscles are a lot smaller so exercise selection needs to be cycled in order to avoid stagnation when lifting heavy.

However your heavy compound movements will take you to your true genetic potential as long as form is correct and you apply progressive overload principles correctly.(gradually)

My current squat is 120kg I believe my potential squat is around 220-250kg so I have a long way to go, but as long as my training frequency, rest, and eating are on the money I will pick up plenty of muscle along the way.

If your goal is to stack on as much muscle as soon as humanly possible then progressive overload should be applied with every workout session, at least ½

kg or 1 rep more more depending on what you are training that day.

If you try to add too much in each session your gains and lifts will stagnate it has to be a gradual process, if you get too greedy results will suffer and could possibly lead to injury. (been there)

It is possible to gain strength and muscle with every training session, we all seem to settle for less thinking that lifting the same weight every week will induce growth but your body has no reason to grow if the overload is not progressive so it will remain at its current mass level.

Because my program centers mainly around compound movements its possible to add either more weights or reps each training session, it is also a great way to fuel your workouts because with every training session you enter the gym with a goal in mind, to beat your previous lifts.

My lifts obviously show more than 1 rep or ½ kg more each session but I push the boundaries when I train, this is not recommended because it can lead to spinal injury especially when performing squats and deds.

But I had a goal to reach within a 3 month period and I achieved it.

And I am well aware that my current growth and lifts are nothing spectacular but it’s the improvement that I have made in such a short time that is.

my best 6 rep max 3 months ago was 94kg squat, its now 120kg,

My best 6 rep DB bicep curl was 24kg its now 30kg each arm.

I have no before pics because I didn’t think that the growth I am experiencing would be so explosive, I have gained 4.5 cms (2cms from muscle memory) on each arm in 5.8 hrs of training and remember Im 41 my hormone levels are far less than someone in their 20’s –30s?

And yes I am well aware of my fat gains, but who cares my goal is to build as much muscle as possible in the next few months then cut up for summer.

If you had read some of my previous posts I explained this.

And who’s the guy who said the gains in my arms are all fat, if you knew anything about the male anatomy you would realize that large deposits of fat are not stored in the arms (unless grossly overweight) yes my arms have added fat but not 4.5 cms worth.

I posted “im not interested in looking pretty hence the undefined arms’ could I be any more clear on the fact that I am aware of my fat gains.

And im in the process of writing an e book so why the hell would I just back into a corner because you guys mock my pics or posts….cmon guys… I believe 100% in this form of training and eating that will benefit 1000’s of trainer worldwide, do you honestly think im going to just disappear because you don’t agree with what im saying here ?,

Do you think Im writing this from the comfort of my padded cell ??

lol

A lot of you guys are either gifted genetically, medically assisted or both, so you wouldn’t understand how tough it is for someone who struggles to build muscle.

There have been hundreds of views in this thread, it’s the trainees that relate to my dilemma with gaining muscle that I am interested in helping in the future.

You dont need to be an expert to help others gain muscle, its a basic understanding of what type of training induces muscle growth in all body types combined with proper eating and training frequency.

I am considering training 3-5 younger trainees ranging from noobs to experienced

lifters to compare results as this will give a better indication as to how this type of training/eating will effect different body types etc.

Its finding the time at the moment to train them that will be the problem.

This training is nothing revolutionary, I haven’t just snatched it out of the air and thrown it together, it is based on sound principles and training methods that have been proven to work for decades.

If you find it necessary to post something negative about this post then use a bit of wisdom and actually post a valid argument don’t just use it as an opportunity to abuse someone who’s obviously taken the time to write something informative, that’s just stupid and cowardly.

I have never boasted that my form of training or ideas are the only way to build muscle because they aren’t, but I do believe that this form of training is one of the best ways for someone who has family commitments and isn’t interested in living in the gym to build a more muscular body.

My gains are modest, I believe that someone in their 20-30;s have the potential to literally bust out of their skins (no not through fat gains) depending on their mental strength…….. (body-buildings a mind game)

I don’t know how long I can keep posting in here because of my work commitments (back to reality) so if you don’t hear from me for awhile its not because Im hiding, as some have suggested,…lol its because I’m busy.

splinter