Rest days, How many are required for optimum growth ?

[splinter]

another point worth mentioning here is "enhanced" trainers will recover quicker than natural trainers.

Definately, its in the middle of my last post.

[2guns]

ok i see yr point, good luck with yr training and hope u keep seeing results!

[ExpensiveUrine]

What's your interpretation of 'high volume'? What's your interpretation of 'low volume'? Make no mistake about it, no one is forcing you to do a high volume rountine.

When you say low volume, are you referring to HIT? You mentioned modifications but left us with no specifics about the routine. What is your routine?

I don't understand what you mean by this:

Building a better body is all about lifting a weight that is heavy enough for youre body type to stimulate growth....

What if my nanna is a mesomorph, what is a heavy weight for her? If Big MAC is a endomorph, what is a heavy weight for him? What if I'm a combination of the two?

I'll agree with you that building a better body is not about proving how much weight we can all lift (I don't think Big MAC challanged you to a snatch/cj competition, or did he?), but there's a relationship between strength and hypertrophy. A guy who ultimately lifts more next year than the year before will be bigger than the guy who still does the same weights every year. Although, I'll have to say that there's only so much intensity (% of 1RM) that can be increased weekly, there will come a time where you will have to manipulate other training variables and ultimately drop the training load.

I have nothing against HIT and the like, if they are used for a short period of time, preferably after high training load (with respect to volume). But I don't see the point in doing them for longer period of time (>4 weeks).

[splinter]

What's your interpretation of 'high volume'? What's your interpretation of 'low volume'? Make no mistake about it, no one is forcing you to do a high volume rountine.

When you say low volume, are you referring to HIT? You mentioned modifications but left us with no specifics about the routine. What is your routine?

I don't understand what you mean by this:

Building a better body is all about lifting a weight that is heavy enough for youre body type to stimulate growth....

What if my nanna is a mesomorph, what is a heavy weight for her? If Big MAC is a endomorph, what is a heavy weight for him? What if I'm a combination of the two?

I'll agree with you that building a better body is not about proving how much weight we can all lift (I don't think Big MAC challanged you to a snatch/cj competition, or did he?), but there's a relationship between strength and hypertrophy. A guy who ultimately lifts more next year than the year before will be bigger than the guy who still does the same weights every year. Although, I'll have to say that there's only so much intensity (% of 1RM) that can be increased weekly, there will come a time where you will have to manipulate other training variables and ultimately drop the training load.

I have nothing against HIT and the like, if they are used for a short period of time, preferably after high training load (with respect to volume). But I don't see the point in doing them for longer period of time (>4 weeks).

Dude, I realize no one is forcing me do a high volume routine, but some have questioned the effectiveness of my routine, and its obvious from my post that my type of training is heavy & intensive HIT style training.

Its not 1 rep max style training, its rest pause type training, 3 sets each muscle group to failure initial set failing in the 6-8 rep range.

If Big Mac challenged me to a snatch competition he would fry my ass, i dont dispute that fact, and if your grandma is a mesomorph then she is genetically gifted so her type of training wont work for me.

What i should have said in my last post was "Building a better body is all about lifting a weight that is heavy enough for "your body" to stimulate growth, i wasnt referring to wether your an ecto,meso, or endomorph.

[splinter]

ok i see yr point, good luck with yr training and hope u keep seeing results!

Thanks for the encouragement, but if the gains stop, im not telling ya. :pfft:

[ExpensiveUrine]

I think the genetics are a little overblown here, IMO. Plus, people's somatotypes tend to change throughout their training career.

Anyway, how did you modify your program and how many sets does it take you to warm to your working weight?

[waldo]

I just use the phrase 'crap white-man genetics' as a throw away line, not as an excuse.

I have average white-man gentics. :pfft:

[big MAC]

For some reason I like this thread. Interesting.

[splinter]

I think the genetics are a little overblown here, IMO. Plus, people's somatotypes tend to change throughout their training career.

Anyway, how did you modify your program and how many sets does it take you to warm to your working weight?

Trust me when i say my genetics are crap, im not referring to my level of current lifts or measurements as i know there are others here that wouldnt have reached my level yet and there are also those that will laugh at them.

I was referring to what it takes for my body to grow, meaning, absolute 100 % intense style training, i met a guy in his twenties a few months ago who had an incredible build using 3x10 rep set routine, typical 3-4 day split, no set routine just working out when he can.

He admitted His style of training was nowhere near my level of intensity and even his eating was hit and miss. (didnt know how many calories he was eating daily)

Now this is what i mean about genetics, his body obviously responds to lifting a weight that doesnt require his cns to be taxed to the point mine does, so growth at this point in his training is relatively easy for him.

I have tried this type of training in the past and it simply isnt enough to stimulate growth for me.

My nephew is another example, he is in his 20's and has been working out for 1 and 1/2 years, he does no squats, no deds (cause he hates them) his routine consists of, are you ready............. 4-6 x bench press to failure (current lift 50kg) 4-6x pullups once a week, THE END, his shoulders get wider and more rounded every time i see him, his arms are ripped, his chest is expanding, his back is wider, he throws a banana in his whey shake after a workout and eats what hes given each day. WHAT THE .....??????????

Heres another example of someone with above average genetics when it comes to building a better body, unlike myself.

I also have to eat big and count every calorie to insure i keep growing on a weekly basis, when gaining mass i have to gain fat, clean bulking doesnt work for me, Its just too damn expensive to eat too clean and the gains are just too slow, i want to reach my maximum growth potential as soon as i can, so eating purely clean foods is not an option.

I think alot of people with high metabolisms would benefit more from this type of eating anyway, if you are a classic ectomorph (narrow shoulders, raging metabolism) youre waisting so much growth potential if you are on a high volume routine, eating clean.

(uh oh, i hear some clean bulkers grinding their teeth)

Before you start having a go, there is more to this type of eating, its not just eating crap food all day, its incorporating wholesome nutritous food with a little of the bad stuff thrown in there each day to up your caloric intake, but im not going to get into that this post.

Anyway, when i say my genetics suck that is what i am referring to, not my current level of growth or lifts, i got to where i am slowly but surely, with progressive overload each training session that is still improving on a weekly basis.

If you want me to post my routine on push day i will, just laying out a rough idea of this routine can lead to injury (ive done it myself) so i would rather be thorough.

[ohjoshua]

yeah post your routine : :nod:

[frogie2001]

wow this is a touchy subject. Honestly I have given it a go both ways, low volume high intensity and vice versa.

the high intensity i was in and out in 40min, going 4 times a week and sitting on my arse feeling sore until the next. honestly i got pretty big, got some good pumps, and felt like i had a work out, however I was eating a lot and putting on some chub with it too. injuries and strains were starting to mount. than I switched to the "other way" now spending 1.5 hours at the gym for 5 days a week. honestly i noticed more with the heavy short burst. the only reason i changed was teh weight loss. otherwise I'd switch back. hmmm let the debate continue

[ohjoshua]

Its just not possible to train intensly giving every lift 100% if you are training in this manner for 90 -120 mins and not overtrain, anyone who says otherwise is either on the juice (roids) or just plain arguing for the sake of well.....arguing.

First of all, good job being brave and not just conforming with popular opinon.

but,

not possible = impossible

"impossible is a word used by small men" M.Ali

here are some points to keep in mind.

-when an indivdual first begins training they can train with 100% intensity for how long before they begin to overtrain? 20min?

-as the indivdual develops and trains regularly with 100% intensity for a period(6months , 1 year, 10 years) the indivdual can train at 100% intensity for longer before they begin to over train.

-now can that same indivdual train at 100% intensity for 90-120min before they begin to over train?

-If this indivdual continues to train regularly with 100% intensity for a period (6months, 1 year...what ever) will they be able to train for a duration longer then 120min before they begin to over train?

+This example is only 1 indivdual.... If you take into account the bell shaped curve of normality (people have varying degrees of performance).

Then it is incredibly foolish to attempt to put a figure on the amount of time which an indivdual can train at 100% intensity for without over training.

Hope that came across right...

No offence ment to any one.

Oh and splinter, keep up with your high intensity training if you think its working.

I am a DOMS based trainer and no one here agrees with my methods of training.

as they say, each to his own.

[splinter]

Its just not possible to train intensly giving every lift 100% if you are training in this manner for 90 -120 mins and not overtrain, anyone who says otherwise is either on the juice (roids) or just plain arguing for the sake of well.....arguing.

First of all, good job being brave and not just conforming with popular opinon.

but,

not possible = impossible

"impossible is a word used by small men" M.Ali

here are some points to keep in mind.

-when an indivdual first begins training they can train with 100% intensity for how long before they begin to overtrain? 20min?

-as the indivdual develops and trains regularly with 100% intensity for a period(6months , 1 year, 10 years) the indivdual can train at 100% intensity for longer before they begin to over train.

-now can that same indivdual train at 100% intensity for 90-120min before they begin to over train?

-If this indivdual continues to train regularly with 100% intensity for a period (6months, 1 year...what ever) will they be able to train for a duration longer then 120min before they begin to over train?

+This example is only 1 indivdual.... If you take into account the bell shaped curve of normality (people have varying degrees of performance).

Then it is incredibly foolish to attempt to put a figure on the amount of time which an indivdual can train at 100% intensity for without over training.

Hope that came across right...

No offence ment to any one.

Oh and splinter, keep up with your high intensity training if you think its working.

I am a DOMS based trainer and no one here agrees with my methods of training.

as they say, each to his own.

No offence taken. :phear:

But the argument that encouraged me to write that post was based on whether high intensity training would lead to over training if performing up to 2 hrs each session 7 days a week.

I also wrote another post in this thread somewhere about the negative effects of physical exercise that cortisol has on your body, it was a little abreiviated so ill expand on it now.

Some of will already know the adverse effects of cortisol, for those that don't, then youre about to get a short lesson. :discussion:

Cortisol is a bodybuilders worst nightmare, It is a hormone produced by our adrenal gland that is released into the blood stream when an individual is either physically or mentally stressed, among other negative effects cortisol has on the body, it breaks down bone, tendons and muscle tissue.

Its can also cause headaches, fatigue, depression, insomnia etc as well as supress testosterone.

So would you agree that once this hormone is released into the bloodstream that it is detrimental to anyone trying to gain mass? after all it is breaking down what you are desperately trying to build, right?.

Of course it is.

Well the window of opportunity when performing intense physical exercise is believed to be 45-60 minutes before damaging amounts of cortisol are released into your bloodstream, wreaking havoc on your body.

So would you say that any longer than 45-60minutes spent in the gym is overtraining?,

Typical signs of overtraining are sore joints, tendonitis, fatigue, headaches, low immune system, loss in mass, stagnant strength and mass gains, lack of desire to train, shortness of breath, eye twitches, muscle spasms, insomnia etc

Yet most of these symptoms can stem from adverse amounts of cortisol in your system !

If you are suffering from any of these symptoms and you lift weights, chances are, “you are overtraining”.

So why do so many of us train for long periods in the gym each week thinking more training is better?, well for a start, anything in life worth achieving takes hours of comitemnt and dedication in order to succeed, so if you are a driven individual then its only natural to think the more we train the more well gain, right?, its not a bad thing in fact it shows you are committed to your task of building a better body in as little time as possible so it only makes sense to spend hours in the gym training each week.

I know it defies all logic but unfortunately when it comes to building a better body, unless you are drug assisted, the opposite is true.

Another reason we train long and hard is because that’s what all the muscle mags recommend, after all some of these guys in these mags are 300 +pound monsters, and they train this way so its gotta work for us right?, wrong, they are using drugs that suppress the release of cortisol, elevate their natural growth hormone and testosterone levels so their recovery ability is mindblowing.

So anytime spent above that 60 minute window of opportunity to train, unless you are drug assisted will ultimately lead to overtraining.

A natural bodybuilders anabolic is short intense training, BIG FOOD and plenty of rest and sleep.

Okay, now that’s one example of how long training sessions can lead to overtraining, but what about intensity, Is it really possible to maintain high levels of intensity when lifting weights for 60 minutes to 2 hours?

For the purposes of this illustration we will use two types of athletes.

Olympic sprinters

Olympic long distance runners

Now who do you think out of these two groups of athletes gives 100% intensity when they leave the blocks?

Its the sprinters, right?

So why not just put the sprinters on the long distance blocks, it would be a hell of show to see them sprinting around the track fighting it out for the next few minutes instead of the few seconds they normally run?.

The answer is simple, it is physically IMPOSSIBLE for them to maintain 100% intensity for the duration needed to cover the distance that a long distance runner covers.

Officials and organizers of the olympic games are aware of these basic physical laws and measure the distances for these types of events accordingly.

It doesn’t matter how long these sprinters continue to train, whether it be for 6 months

Or 10 years, they are never going to condition their body to maintain 100% intensity for this distance, its physically impossible.

That’s why long distance runners pace themselves.

The exact same principles apply to weight training, it is physically impossible to maintain 100% for a 90-120 minute training session, and, no matter many years you train, you’re never going to improve this basic physical law.

Another Question: How many Big muscular long distance runners have you seen in your lifetime?

They are generally very skinny, why?

Because when running long distances for long periods, massive amounts of cortisol are released into their bodies when training and competing.

Apply that to any individual who is involved in professional long distance type events, marathon runners, tri athletes etc, you will never see a sprinters physique (big an muscular) in a long distance event, because a sprinters form of training and competing is based on short intense bursts of physical energy, their cortisol levels never reach a long distance runners levels so they are able to preserve any mass they currently have.

Again heres proof of the negative effects that endurance type training has to muscle tissue etc, so why would these physical laws somehow be turned around because someone is lifting weights for over 1-2 hour sessions.

Theyre not, the same rules apply, no matter who you are, unless you are drug assisted long sessions of lifting weights(over the 1 hour mark) will have you spinning your wheels.

Its like trying to fill the bath when your pulling the plug out every 5 minutes............"Put the plug in, turn the tap on and walk away"

(Promote growth through short intense training, then get out of the gym to recover and grow!!)

The facts are here in black and white, its not my opinion or ideas, studies on the negative effects that cortisol has on anyone trying to gain mass were not conducted by myself, they are simple facts, you can either choose to believe them or ignore them, but if you are spending hours in the gym each week and are experiencing some of the symptoms presented above, you would be foolish to ignore it.

Okay ive had my say, and I hope I havn’t offended anyone either, I know i can come across as a bit of a hothead but thats because im 100% convinced that the type of training ive discovered (literally by accident) will build a better body for anyone, especially for the hardgainer in as little as 40-60 minutes a week, (im actually in the anvanced stage which is one training sesion 20-30 min every 8 days, i kid you not).in fact im so confident that this type of training will benefit so many individuals who are struggling to gain mass that I am in the process of writing an ebook that I hope to have ready to hit the shelves early next year, its mindblowing how I can grow with such little work each week, this is coming from someone who has struggled to build muscle for the last 7 years using typical 10-12 rep scheme in the 5-8 set sets per muscle group.

It has turned me into a believer that less volume with extreme intense lifting and a lot of rest (recovery time) is key to growth and will work for anyone wanting to gain mass on their entire frame.

I was going to post the routine but theres alot more to it than just the lifting set,rep, routine in order for it to be effective, and it can be kinda dangerous if you are relatively new to heavy Intense aerobic type training, or new to bodybuilding, so ill have to have a think about how i can abbreviate it safely, judging from some of the photos ive seen of alot of you guys, you dont need any help gaining muscle (lucky bastards, im starting to wonder if coming in here was a good idea. lol) but if someone here can relate to my dilemma of struggling to gain muscle then this may just be the answer.

Anyway thanks for reading this post, I hope I havn’t bored ya!

Oh yea thought i would mention bout the doms thing, i agree with you, but thats a whole nother post......... :pfft:

[Paul]

Sounds great post a pic up so i can see the proofs in the pudding

[splinter]

Sounds great post a pic up so i can see the proofs in the pudding

Haha, youre a funny guy,I dont profess to be a monster yet all im saying is im growing, why do you think im going to wait until the beginning of next year before even contemplating releasing the book.

If you have read my previous posts youll know im a hardgainer so growth

has been minimal over the last 7 yrs (is 4kg over the last 7 yrs good) :pfft:

I only resumed training mid dec last year due to injury but since then i have gained back the 2cms i lost on each arm (muscle memory) and have added an additional 2cms of new mass to each arm, and added mass to my entire frame.

Total time spent in the gym has been 5.4 hours over this time frame.

My normal total training time over this period using high volume would be 13+ hours, with nothing to show for it, yet here i am using less than half that volume and growing, and because of the added mass im constantly eating just to maintain it, so im going to have to up the food bill, to continue growing !!

It defies all logic but after months of research i finally understand the logic behind HIT type training although i think even some of the hit routines can still cause overtraining, but im not going to get into that here.

If progress slows then i may hold off the book until i feel results justify releasing it, or i could just be one of those guys who sell them without the pics,..hmmm. NAH

I might post a pic of my arms in the next month or so, depends how brave im feeling, just go easy on the comments if i do, remember its work in progress. :boohoo:

[waldo]

It's been too long a day to read your post splinter, but I want to alert you to a couple of points.

a) You can block cortisol release by ingesting carbs and protein before a workout, and carbs during a workout.

b) Long distance runners are skinny because they work aerobically requiring stored glycogen and adipose (fat) tissue and oxygen to create the energy for their work. Cardiovascular exercise burns fat.

Apologies if you had aluded to these points in your post.

[splinter]

It's been too long a day to read your post splinter, but I want to alert you to a couple of points.

a) You can block cortisol release by ingesting carbs and protein before a workout, and carbs during a workout.

b) Long distance runners are skinny because they work aerobically requiring stored glycogen and adipose (fat) tissue and oxygen to create the energy for their work. Cardiovascular exercise burns fat.

Apologies if you had aluded to these points in your post.

Hey Waldo, thanks for the information, there are a few stratagies that i am aware of that can aid in keeping cortisol levels at their minimum when training, and im sorry but i dont agree with you that cardiovascular excerise only burns fat, because i have personally experienced loss in muscle tissue while weight training and performing cardio.

There are different forms of cardio, some are better at targeting fat that others, but for the sake of keeping this post short theres alot of good information regarding these issues on the link below.

http://bodybuilding.about.com/od/supple ... rtisol.htm

[waldo]

I would hasard a guess and say you probably weren't eating enough while doing cardio and lifting weights. Jo Stewart (4x Ms NZ) runs for an hour a day leading up to comp time, and reckons adequate protein intake maintains her muscle mass.

We'll agree to disagree on the cardio issue...having spent a good few years as a road cyclist I have my own opinions on the subject.

[splinter]

wow this is a touchy subject. Honestly I have given it a go both ways, low volume high intensity and vice versa.

the high intensity i was in and out in 40min, going 4 times a week and sitting on my arse feeling sore until the next. honestly i got pretty big, got some good pumps, and felt like i had a work out, however I was eating a lot and putting on some chub with it too. injuries and strains were starting to mount. than I switched to the "other way" now spending 1.5 hours at the gym for 5 days a week. honestly i noticed more with the heavy short burst. the only reason i changed was teh weight loss. otherwise I'd switch back. hmmm let the debate continue

Hey dude, its nice to have some positive things said about hit style training.

The reason you were eating alot would have been because of your added mass, the more mass you add to your frame the more its gonna ask back from you in caloric intake.

But the fact is you were gaining mass, right?

As for the injuries i completely understand, if you are training heavy constantly you need more rest than someone using higher reps and lighter working weight.

There are alot of hit routines that if used regularly will still lead to overtraining becasue their training frequency recomendations are still too close for the natural bodybuilder.

4x40min is way to much time to spend in the gym each week lifting intense and heavy if you are a drug free bodybuilder, thats 2.6 hrs per week spent crushing your spine, shoulders knees and elbows. It's no wonder you became overtrained? (sore joints etc)

I have experienced similar symtoms, aching joints and wicked tendonitis in both elbows. I kept training thinking they would somehow miraculously repair themselves and..........It ultimately led to an extended layof period to recover.

So after numerous trials I eventually developed a system that still enables you to train Heavy with intensity thus stimulating maximum growth while giving your body more than enough time to recover and add mass.

This can be achieved in as little as 40-60 minutes max per week with an extended layoff period after an 8 week cycle to ensure maximum recovery and growth ready for the next heavy cycle.

I have discovered the advanced training frequency can add mass to your frame using one 20-30 min session every 9 days (trust me it is possible)

This allows ample time for your joints and connective tissue to repair and as long as your caloric intake is enough to promote growth, you wil go into every session refreshed and ready to go for your next heavy cycle.

Anyway, I hope I've given you something to think about :think:

[splinter]

I would hasard a guess and say you probably weren't eating enough while doing cardio and lifting weights. Jo Stewart (4x Ms NZ) runs for an hour a day leading up to comp time, and reckons adequate protein intake maintains her muscle mass.

We'll agree to disagree on the cardio issue...having spent a good few years as a road cyclist I have my own opinions on the subject.

You guessed wrong my friend i was eating between 3000-3500 calories a day, it was the type of cardio that was the culprit, the fact is based on my metabolism at the time, i shouldnt have been performing any cardio at all, but i had faith at the time that my personal trainer knew what he was doing, 4 months later i had lost 3kg in mass and looked like id just stepped out of a concentration camp. I never paid him for the last session.

As for the cardio, like you said......well just agree to disagree.

[big MAC]

If I eat 3500 cals a day I lose weight. Jagshemash!

Obviously size differences account for that.

[waldo]

I would hasard a guess and say you probably weren't eating enough while doing cardio and lifting weights. Jo Stewart (4x Ms NZ) runs for an hour a day leading up to comp time, and reckons adequate protein intake maintains her muscle mass.

We'll agree to disagree on the cardio issue...having spent a good few years as a road cyclist I have my own opinions on the subject.

You guessed wrong my friend i was eating between 3000-3500 calories a day, it was the type of cardio that was the culprit, the fact is based on my metabolism at the time, i shouldnt have been performing any cardio at all, but i had faith at the time that my personal trainer knew what he was doing, 4 months later i had lost 3kg in mass and looked like id just stepped out of a concentration camp. I never paid him for the last session.

As for the cardio, like you said......well just agree to disagree.

Lets say you need 2500 cals to maintain your bodyweight, and you spend an hour lifting and another 20 mins cardio, thus burning another 1200 cals, you will be in deficit if you were eating 3-3500 cals per day. You will certainly lose mass/weight. Calories in, calories out.

As for not paying your pT for the last session, that's pretty sad man, if you agree to employ him, you pay. That's like doing a runner from a taxi.

If you aren't happy with a PT's performance, let him know, and he will be happy to work something out.

[splinter]

If I eat 3500 cals a day I lose weight. Jagshemash!

Obviously size differences account for that.

Yep, definatley, ive progressed to the stage where 2500-2800 is my mass building intake (not maintenance) and i eat between 3500-3800 on lifting days which is only once a week but ive got a feeling the the time i check my stats on mon, im going to have to up it.

[frogie2001]

sorry does that mean you vary your calorie intake day to day?

[splinter]

sorry does that mean you vary your calorie intake day to day?

No i eat just slightly above my maintenace level to gain, daily, obviously training day requires more caloreis because of the extra energy expended.

I measure each week, if i havnt gained any mass i up my caloric intake, if i am gaining however i stick to my current intake until measurements let me know its time its time to increase, etc.

If i go to far above my daily tdee i gain too much fat.

I am messing around with a higher hit of carbs after the 4-5th day of training as this seems to be the days when my body demands more food, (cause im always hungry) with this type of training especially carbs.

I then resume my normal intake the next day.