Tren and gyno

[tomsammce]

well, i am running 0.25mg of letrozole ed to prevent gynocomastia from the tren. this isnt really a high enough amount to kill sexdrive and put joints at risk, though it is definitly good enough to prevent water retention and prevent the gyno.

too many ppl are too quick to bag femara/letrozole saying its bad and nasty stuff... at 2.5mg ed for a long period of time of course it is... low doses are fine and can be run for a long period of time. when you consider its a very low cost option when used at these low dosages and its current availablity not to mention its number of uses, destroying gyno, preventing estrogenic related sides and its use for pct... it really is a pretty good drug.

also while im at it, neither proviron of masteron is an anti estrogen. neither has been shown to have this effect and if they do have any such effect it would be weak as piss.

[I Declare War]

well, i am running 0.25mg ed to prevent gynocomastia from the tren. this isnt really a high enough amount to kill sexdrive and put joints at risk, though it is definitly good enough to prevent water retention and prevent the gyno.

too many ppl are too quick to bag femara/letrozole saying its bad and nasty stuff... at 2.5mg ed for a long period of time of course it is... low doses are fine and can be run for a long period of time. when you consider its a very low cost option when used at these low dosages and its current availablity not to mention its number of uses, destroying gyno, preventing estrogenic related sides and its use for pct... it really is a pretty good drug.

also while im at it, neither proviron of masteron is an anti estrogen. neither has been shown to have this effect and if they do have any such effect it would be weak as piss.

Sorry to say it - but, go back to the drawing board bro! Letro for Tren gynocomastia? That's almost ridiculous.

Letrozole will only help to reduce estrogen levels that are a result of the testosterone aromatising - or changing into - estrogen. Trenbolone does not aromatise to estrogen like testosterone does - the structure of the trenbolone molecule is different, it does not fit into the aromatase enzyme.

In your case, reducing the estrogen in your system using Letrozole may help somewhat, at least you've got the estrogen in control. It is possible that there may be a synergistic effect, where the effects of prolactin and estrogen combine together and exert a greater effect than either alone would, when you've got high levels of both prolactin and estrogen in your system.

Letrozole will not do anything to help lower prolactin levels that cause the type gynocomastia associated with Trenbolone usage. Have a look into bromocriptine or cabergoline if you want to reduce your prolactin levels.

Also, have a read of this article, it's about the differences between the antiestrogens, anti-aromatases versus estrogen antagonists - there's also some info there about Proviron and its effects. I know it's a bit old and it's definitely not a peer-reviewed study, but it's still good info and the author has a pretty nice list of qualifications.

[Riccardo]

Check out Clin Biochem 2001 Nov;38(Pt 6):596-607. Prolactin itself isn't enough to stimulate breast tissue formation it requires at least moderate amounts of estrogen with which it works in a synergistic manner. By killing estrogen to low enough levels you are able to prevent this. So yes Letro will help with gyno related to progestin use. Dostinex and other drugs while inhibiting prolactin don't have anti estrogen capability and it would be possible to still develop gyno due to estrogen only. Plus they generally have less tolerable side effects.

[thatwaslight]

Check out Clin Biochem 2001 Nov;38(Pt 6):596-607. Prolactin itself isn't enough to stimulate breast tissue formation it requires at least moderate amounts of estrogen with which it works in a synergistic manner. By killing estrogen to low enough levels you are able to prevent this. So yes Letro will help with gyno related to progestin use. Dostinex and other drugs while inhibiting prolactin don't have anti estrogen capability and it would be possible to still develop gyno due to estrogen only. Plus they generally have less tolerable side effects.

couldn't be fucked getting into this one but. ^^this.

as i'm aware prolactin cannot metabolize in the absence of estrogen anyway so buy taking letro you stop it at its root. no estrogen no prolactin.

[musclenz]

Check out Clin Biochem 2001 Nov;38(Pt 6):596-607. Prolactin itself isn't enough to stimulate breast tissue formation it requires at least moderate amounts of estrogen with which it works in a synergistic manner. By killing estrogen to low enough levels you are able to prevent this. So yes Letro will help with gyno related to progestin use. Dostinex and other drugs while inhibiting prolactin don't have anti estrogen capability and it would be possible to still develop gyno due to estrogen only. Plus they generally have less tolerable side effects.

Listen to this Man he knows what hes talking about.

[I Declare War]

Thanks Riccardo. I did allude to this partly in my reply to Tom in the first place - the synergistic effect of high estrogen and prolactin levels, that is. The problem here is that you (and the others who have chimed in) are not taking the context of the situation into consideration. The question I ask you, and others who may chance upon this thread, is whether it is a wise decision to use these ancillaries for the duration of a cycle?

I do not know Tom's history regarding gear use but, due to his proactive approach against it (which is not necessarily a good approach as I will explain) I can guess that he's had problems with gyno in the past; it's possible that he has already developed lumps (I know TWL has from previous discussions on this forum) and that he's worried that they might flare up. If that is the case, then the question becomes - is it not better to have gyno surgery undertaken and get rid of the problem at it's root rather than going ass backwards about it (by using Letro for the duration of a cycle)?

Yes - Letro will cut estrogen out of the equation... but the problem is that Letro reduces estrogen to below normal levels, this is not a good thing. Estrogen is required to be above a certain level for the body to function normally. Excess levels are bad, but low levels are also as bad. One notable side effect of Letro is that it is harsh on the joints - I know this from first hand experience. Furthermore, it's also common knowledge among gear heads that you need a certain amount of estrogen for optimal gains.

The above taken into consideration leads me to conclude that using Letro for the duration of a cycle is the wrong way to go about this issue. I'd argue that it is not a sensible option to use Letro for the whole duration of a cycle - It's drug misuse and there are much smarter options available.

In my opinion - if you haven't already developed lumps - it is better to attack the prolactin issue at its cause, use Prami (Pramipexole) if you can get it... the sides aren't bad at all when used as needed.

Common sense applied sensibly - or not?

[samuelNZ]

Is it possible to use Letro at dosages so low that they do not fully deplete the levels of estrogen? In theory saving your joints?

[I Declare War]

Is it possible to use Letro at dosages so low that they do not fully deplete the levels of estrogen? In theory saving your joints?

I've even thought of that... good to see you're thinking outside of the box aswell.

That may be possible, but I'm not experienced enough with Letro to be able to say how easily it could be done... even if I used it alot it'd still only be anecdotal evidence that I could provide... unless estrogen levels were tested regulary in response to Letro dose. It'd be easier with Arimidex.... But, this is not the path I'd follow... it makes more sense, to me, to keep cycles as simple as possible and use ancillaries only as needed. If something hinders gains or needlessly contributes to side-effects it ain't in a cycle of mine.

I've got several mates who've had their glands removed... makes this whole issue redundant. If I have any issues with gyno myself; I'll be on a plane to Thailand to get it done with no hesitations.

[Chemo]

I've got several mates who've had their glands removed... makes this whole issue redundant. If I have any issues with gyno myself; I'll be on a plane to Thailand to get it done with no hesitations.

Extreme but not a bad idea to just get an op.

Is it possible to use Letro at dosages so low that they do not fully deplete the levels of estrogen? In theory saving your joints?

Titan do a 1mg/ml formula that would suit that mild use of the substance.

Even half a mil would add some nice estro control. 2.5 ED sounds like its a killer

(inb4 Titan flame) "Dont hate, celebrate"

[Daz69]

IDW.. trying to answer your original question regarding whether it is a wise decision to use ancillaries (femara) for the duration of a Tren cycle to combat the issue of gyno?

Tren being a progestin binds to the progesterone receptor (PgR), and as we know high progesterone can cause prolactin release from the pituatary, but only in the presence of moderate amounts of estrogen.

Femara is a very strong AI and has been shown to reduce Estrogen by as much as 98%... You have stated previously the benefits of some estrogen.....

Tren doesn't aromatise, but the Test taken with the Tren could do...

Rather than address the issue of prolactin with Caber, or cut out Estrogen almost completely with Femara, couldn't Proviron be taken in moderate amounts throughout the Tren cycle, keeping aromatised test in check, and freeing up more test from SHBG....

Plus I've read the presence of Androgens decrease Prolactin....

If Tren is causing gyno, why use it there's plenty more to go at, if any compounds give you serious issues.... Don't use them....!!!

[musclenz]

Thanks Riccardo. I did allude to this partly in my reply to Tom in the first place - the synergistic effect of high estrogen and prolactin levels, that is. The problem here is that you (and the others who have chimed in) are not taking the context of the situation into consideration. The question I ask you, and others who may chance upon this thread, is whether it is a wise decision to use these ancillaries for the duration of a cycle?

I do not know Tom's history regarding gear use but, due to his proactive approach against it (which is not necessarily a good approach as I will explain) I can guess that he's had problems with gyno in the past; it's possible that he has already developed lumps (I know TWL has from previous discussions on this forum) and that he's worried that they might flare up. If that is the case, then the question becomes - is it not better to have gyno surgery undertaken and get rid of the problem at it's root rather than going ass backwards about it (by using Letro for the duration of a cycle)?

Yes - Letro will cut estrogen out of the equation... but the problem is that Letro reduces estrogen to below normal levels, this is not a good thing. Estrogen is required to be above a certain level for the body to function normally. Excess levels are bad, but low levels are also as bad. One notable side effect of Letro is that it is harsh on the joints - I know this from first hand experience. Furthermore, it's also common knowledge among gear heads that you need a certain amount of estrogen for optimal gains.

The above taken into consideration leads me to conclude that using Letro for the duration of a cycle is the wrong way to go about this issue. I'd argue that it is not a sensible option to use Letro for the whole duration of a cycle - It's drug misuse and there are much smarter options available.

In my opinion - if you haven't already developed lumps - it is better to attack the prolactin issue at its cause, use Prami (Pramipexole) if you can get it... the sides aren't bad at all when used as needed.

Common sense applied sensibly - or not?

All good points raised I agree that its not a great approach to use an AI like Letro right thru a cycle unless you have existing lumps or a very gyno prone. In this case you trade off the lower estrogen levels & lower muscle growth with controlling existing gyno. In this case a dose around .25-.50mg E3D can be sufficient. Depends on whether yr using Pharma Grade or Research. UGL can be nearly as good as Pharma. In my opinion it is better to control estrogen than prolactin as anyone that knows how excess prolactin in a male body works will testify. So I believe its easier to use AI's than dopamine agonists like Prami & Cabergoline & much cheaper too.

With regard to gyno surgery. This is only a cosmetic treatment. It does not stop the body producing high levels of estrogen or prolactin. Sure if its done correctly you can avoid the puffy breast growth & the lumps but other estro issues can & do arise when the test/esro axis is out of wack.mThis I believe is what many fail to address after gland removal.

[I Declare War]

IDW.. trying to answer your original question regarding whether it is a wise decision to use ancillaries (femara) for the duration of a Tren cycle to combat the issue of gyno?

Tren being a progestin binds to the progesterone receptor (PgR), and as we know high progesterone can cause prolactin release from the pituatary, but only in the presence of moderate amounts of estrogen.

Femara is a very strong AI and has been shown to reduce Estrogen by as much as 98%... You have stated previously the benefits of some estrogen.....

Tren doesn't aromatise, but the Test taken with the Tren could do...

Rather than address the issue of prolactin with Caber, or cut out Estrogen almost completely with Femara, couldn't Proviron be taken in moderate amounts throughout the Tren cycle, keeping aromatised test in check, and freeing up more test from SHBG....

Plus I've read the presence of Androgens decrease Prolactin....

If Tren is causing gyno, why use it there's plenty more to go at, if any compounds give you serious issues.... Don't use them....!!!

There's some logic! Thanks Daz. And now we're back to the initial message from me to Tom, that started all this off, where I said "Get some Proviron or Masteron, you'll thank me later bro!".

All good points raised I agree that its not a great approach to use an AI like Letro right thru a cycle unless you have existing lumps or a very gyno prone. In this case you trade off the lower estrogen levels & lower muscle growth with controlling existing gyno. In this case a dose around .25-.50mg E3D can be sufficient. Depends on whether yr using Pharma Grade or Research. UGL can be nearly as good as Pharma. In my opinion it is better to control estrogen than prolactin as anyone that knows how excess prolactin in a male body works will testify. So I believe its easier to use AI's than dopamine agonists like Prami & Cabergoline & much cheaper too.

With regard to gyno surgery. This is only a cosmetic treatment. It does not stop the body producing high levels of estrogen or prolactin. Sure if its done correctly you can avoid the puffy breast growth & the lumps but other estro issues can & do arise when the test/esro axis is out of wack.mThis I believe is what many fail to address after gland removal.

Cheers for the input as well musclenz - that's good info right there as well.

[thatwaslight]

if mnz said it, its true.

/thread

[I Declare War]

if mnz said it, its true.

/thread

lol wtf, this thread aint gonna close till I give up bbing.

[thatwaslight]

if mnz said it, its true.

/thread

lol wtf, this thread aint gonna close till I give up bbing.

lol im just saying MNZ speaks the gospel bro, hes like the aas oracle

[musclenz]

if mnz said it, its true.

/thread

lol wtf, this thread aint gonna close till I give up bbing.

lol im just saying MNZ speaks the gospel bro, hes like the aas oracle

Haaaa! No Guru here twl. I just been doing it for a long time & I did my degree in AAS 1 in the US on several boards but eventually I got kicked off them all for being to much of a know it all Actually Riccardo is the most qualified on here to ask questions of.

[I Declare War]

musclenz, I'd have to disagree with you there. Yes, Riccardo is a Medical student. I used to train at Auckland University Gym myself when Riccardo showed up on the scene (this was around 2008/2009). He must have a bit of smarts given he's gained entry into a Medical degree, and made it through a few years of it and he does seem quite articulate in (some) of his posts.

I agree, his studies enable him to be able to interpret what's in the textbooks and also give him a good platform for discussion regarding AAS on this forum. But, they are no substitute for experience. I'm not even sure Riccardo juices (back when I saw him around I'm pretty sure he didn't). Also, keep in mind that there's some dullard doctors about. I've had several obese GP's, for example - what does that tell you? Qualifications don't equal smart health choices necessarily. I do think in the years to come that if Riccardo sticks in the scene, he will become quite the

guru - but he's not there yet. He is good at cut and paste, though. ;-)

It is obvious that you do know a hell of a lot about the subject, musclenz. You've been in the game for longer than many on this forum have been alive (correct?). As long as you dish out good and safe advice I'll be repping you on this forum.

One guy who's rather quiet on this forum, who from the few things he does say, that I think is pretty advanced would be Pete_S. That guy doesn't say much wrong.

I myself, I'm still learning... that's why I've started this thread. If I knew everything there would be no need for it. I've only been active in the (AAS) scene for about 5 years... not much in the scheme of things. I am a no bullshit person, though, and I'm good at sorting fact from fiction, also my studies (chem/biochem) do give me a good platform to understand how these compounds may work in our bodies.

Here's a good equation to think about:

Qualifications & Self Study + Smarts & Common Sense + Firsthand experience = fella that knows his shit.

[HarryB]

All this science is giving me a headache... thank god for genetics! lol

[Daz69]

All this science is giving me a headache... thank god for genetics! lol

You can thank him Harry..... You're one of the lucky ones.... :grin:

[AlBundy]

Hahaha yea I can't imagine anyone thanking god for cystic fibrosis or degenerative muscle diseases.

[I Declare War]

All this science is giving me a headache... thank god for genetics! lol

You can thank him Harry..... You're one of the lucky ones.... :grin:

Hahaha yea I can't imagine anyone thanking god for cystic fibrosis or degenerative muscle diseases.

Shit! I don't think I've ever seen your rep bar less than full - Did someone take some Rep power off you for that comment, Harry?

You've been running around all barred up for a while now! lol

[HarryB]

lol I don't know have I? I haven't posted much worthwhile lately... I better lift my game. Had low carb brain and the short fuse that goes with it. Now my body has worked out that's all it's getting and I am feeling better!

[h-towngear]

some good discussions here boys

tried letro for a couple of weeks at the end of a cycle and couldnt get a boner for a week :oops:

dont think ill touch it again if i can help it

[maassive]

some good discussions here boys

tried letro for a couple of weeks at the end of a cycle and couldnt get a boner for a week :oops:

dont think ill touch it again if i can help it

Or you could just actually research what your taking before you take it so that doesn't happen.

[h-towngear]

some good discussions here boys

tried letro for a couple of weeks at the end of a cycle and couldnt get a boner for a week :oops:

dont think ill touch it again if i can help it

Or you could just actually research what your taking before you take it so that doesn't happen.

i did my research, didnt realize how strong it was though.