Is 20% Bodyfat fat?

[Grover]

Poor ol PD he's going to get a complex soon!~

[tomsammce]

Sorry this goes a wee way in this thread, however, i was wondering if someone could explain to me leveraging? Why is it that you need to get to 12-15% BF to get the best muscle gain. Is muscle gain inhibited by something at 8%?

it has nothing to do with the bodyfat you are at. it is about the type and amount of foods u have to feed your body to get the best muscles growth. meaning you cant stay at 6-8% and eat the same things someone at 10-15% can eat without gaining bodyfat so to stay at 6-8% you have to eat less meaning you wont hav the same muscle gain.

not worded the best but if u undrstand u will agree.

[Grover]

:nod:

In fact quite possible that if you are eating to stay at 6 to 8% you won't gain any muscle

[thatwaslight]

I wouldn't say 20% is fat but i'd personally never want to be any higher than that and with a clean(ISH) diet i can't see why you couldn't remain around 15-16 and still make good progress? or is this about carrying more bf for the purposes of pling rookie?

His bodyfat is what it is. He's eating well and training hard and is healthy. 15-16%, 20-22%, who really gives a rats arse. It's about getting big and strong for him. Why would you even worry within reason. A guy who eats cleanish and trains hard shouldn't waste time with calipers while the goal is to be big and strong. Plenty of time for a summer cut later on (I think that's what you guys call it). The dude is eating a lot of food and getting stronger. My advice has been to forget about worrying about being lean and to eat every 2-3 hours, to train hard and to get lots of rest.

Despite what you think I am not a Rookie cheerleader. I give this advice to anyone who wants to listen and it's hardly earth shattering. I have stolen it from lots of people. The fact that Rookie continues to work hard is something we can all learn from. He's at a stage in his life when not a lot else matters (yes I remember those days lol).

It all comes down to personal preference i guess, i have never done a 'cut' and don't intend to i just prefer to stay around 15-16% year round and find the mirror gives me a clearer indication as to my muscular progress at that mark.

I could give a f*ck about having a six pack as long as my weights are going up and i'm gaining LEAN MASS lol if i can stay at 15-16 and make progress i'd rather that than creep up to 20+ but thats just me.

Look what you have started PD :grin:

[Grover]

:rockout: :rockout: :rockout:

PB 1000 posts, finished mucking around now, off to the gym for cardio & Abs session to lower my BF

[rimma]

:rockout: :rockout: :rockout:

PB 1000 posts, finished mucking around now, off to the gym for cardio & Abs session to lower my BF

I was going to have to have words with you Grover, I thought you were channeling the spirit of Gymsta or something with your post whoring ways :grin:

[Dr Squat]

:rockout: :rockout: :rockout:

PB 1000 posts, finished mucking around now, off to the gym for cardio & Abs session to lower my BF

Don't do it bro. The new threshold for being a man is now 30% BF and 100 KG.

[Dr Squat]

It all comes down to personal preference i guess, i have never done a 'cut' and don't intend to i just prefer to stay around 15-16% year round and find the mirror gives me a clearer indication as to my muscular progress at that mark.

I could give a f*ck about having a six pack as long as my weights are going up and i'm gaining LEAN MASS lol if i can stay at 15-16 and make progress i'd rather that than creep up to 20+ but thats just me.

Look what you have started PD :grin:

Well put. Gaining muscle is blody hard for most of us. I like to keep it simple and eat as much as I can (relatively clean), train heavy and try to get as strong as possible. I understand others take a different approach. There will always be some crossover.

I hope PD doesn't take it to heart because it's an interesting topic and there are some good views.

[perpetual_injuries]

Sorry this goes a wee way in this thread, however, i was wondering if someone could explain to me leveraging? Why is it that you need to get to 12-15% BF to get the best muscle gain. Is muscle gain inhibited by something at 8%?

it has nothing to do with the bodyfat you are at. it is about the type and amount of foods u have to feed your body to get the best muscles growth. meaning you cant stay at 6-8% and eat the same things someone at 10-15% can eat without gaining bodyfat so to stay at 6-8% you have to eat less meaning you wont hav the same muscle gain.

not worded the best but if u undrstand u will agree.

The thing that i'm curious about is whether you can gain muscle without gaining fat.

The way i understand it, your muscles need 'x' number of macro and micro nutrients to grow/maintain their mass. To get this you provide your body with them through food and or supplements. When you're body is assigning energy and nutrients to areas is effectively triages what needs to be done, and provides the energy and nutrients where need to allow to exercise, maintenance, repair and building (the last two being much the same). When there is excess energy it will store this as fat.

If all this is true, then I would seem to me that you could get to 8% body fat and then provide your body only what it needed to build, maintain, repair and exercise. You would only gain fat if you were giving it more than it needed.

Thus you should theoretically be able to get to an maintain 8% bodyfat as well as gain muscle mass with ideal efficiency, so long as you followed the ideal diet.

This is all just assumptions and conclusions drawn from a very basic understanding of metabolism and muscle development. Please correct me anywhere i'm wrong. It's something i'm very curious about.

[rose]

I know it's just a discussion, but aren't there better things in life to worry about? This kind of thing is always going to come down to personal preference, goals and people's individual perceptions of body image. Some have a healthier vision of body image than others, apparently.

[Rookie]

LOL thought I'd tune in here: I used to be 93kgs at 35%+bf compared to my 90kgs 20%+. People think 20% plus is obese, like an earlier post said, fat is stored in diff places, heck I have veins in my forearms and most of you would not believe that's possible.My gut does not hang off my belt line... (yet)

TWL my diet looks like this:

M1: 1cup of rice, 100g+ red salmon

M2: 250-300g sweet potato, 100-150g fillet steak or lean ground beef burgers(home made from lean beef)

M3: 250-300g sweet potato and 150-200g chicken breast

M4: 1/2cup-3/4cup rice and 150-200g chicken breast

M5: 40-50g carbs from 100% orange juice and 30g protein

M6: 1cup of rice and 150-200g chicken breast

M7: Shake before bed (30g protein)

This what I do 6days a week, and have a few cheat meals on Sunday (nothing overboard).

Like TT said in a beginner thread, if cals are over maintenance, you will still gain fat.

My goal is to be big and strong, Dr Squat knows my goals very well since I outlined very clearly once I began liking power-building/powerlifting.

At the end of the day, I train for myself and to achieve my goals that I set regularly.

My purpose to go to the gym is not to impress chicks or have abs and call myself a BBer. Lifting is something I love to do, and getting strong is the objective, when I walk through those doors I treat it like business, don't stand around checking myself out in mirrors the whole time.

Yes Dr Squat is right, lifting is basically the only thing that I'm living for at the moment (besides friends, faith and family)

Hope that makes it clear(er)

Rookie

[Dr Squat]

I know it's just a discussion, but aren't there better things in life to worry about? This kind of thing is always going to come down to personal preference, goals and people's individual perceptions of body image. Some have a healthier vision of body image than others, apparently.

Rosie, some of us are sad lol. Good to see you back on board and nearing 5000 posts.

[rose]

nearing 5000 posts

Please reset them to zero lest someone have a tanty about it :grin:

[train hard]

if your goal is to get bigger and stronger and you are getting the job done at 20% then good on you who gives a shit as long your strength is going up with your bodyweight then you are doing well.

if your goal is to get ripped and you have been sitting at 20% for over a month then you are fat and should give a shit not doing very well

[Creatine]

If all this is true, then I would seem to me that you could get to 8% body fat and then provide your body only what it needed to build, maintain, repair and exercise. You would only gain fat if you were giving it more than it needed.

Thing is how do we know exactly how much our body needs? You would have to take into account calories burnt from workouts, resting, breaking down food, repairing muscle,walking to your car,etc. There's probably even variations in nutritional info of the foods, which may be minute but will still affect getting the calories spot on.

imo starting with ball park figures and modifying through trial and error is a more realistic approach.

In response to 20% bf being fat, i agree with the Doc, depends on the context. For a bodybuilder i reckon 20% is fat, bulking or not lol. For a powerlifter it doesnt really matter unless it were possible for the whole 20% to be belly fat lol (i guess it'd be alright if you were a bench specialist lol). For a sumo wrestler 20% is lean.

[soundsgood]

In a bodybuilding point of view - Yes. 20% bodyfat IS fat.

If you are a dedicated bodybuilder, there is no need to be that high. 'Bulking' up over 15-16% is bulking fail. As a bodybuilder, you will have to diet at some point and it is pretty hard to keep all your gains as you come down as opposed to if you lean bulk between 10-15%.

Bodybuilding is about increasing muscle mass and being able to show it off. You can't increase it any faster by being fat (in fact I would argue it would slow progress down), and you definately can't show it off :pfft:

Powerbuilders and powerlifters don't have to look good so understand your different views.

[startinfromscratch]

dont you guys know the secret to big guns is BF%?!

you want 22" arms? rhodestown for you!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[tomsammce]

so what bodyfat is ronnie coleman in those photos u see of him in the off season SG?

Just sayn..

[Rookie]

In a bodybuilding point of view - Yes. 20% bodyfat IS fat.

If you are a dedicated bodybuilder, there is no need to be that high. 'Bulking' up over 15-16% is bulking fail. As a bodybuilder, you will have to diet at some point and it is pretty hard to keep all your gains as you come down as opposed to if you lean bulk between 10-15%.

Bodybuilding is about increasing muscle mass and being able to show it off. You can't increase it any faster by being fat (in fact I would argue it would slow progress down), and you definately can't show it off :pfft:

Powerbuilders and powerlifters don't have to look good so understand your different views.

I get what you mean SG, I used to be 35%+ in my michelin man days though, not like I was skinny and ate my way up 20%. All subjective I guess, my goals at the moment are powerlifting related so I train for that purpose. If my goal was to step on stage in 20weeks then I would change everything.

At the moment my strength is increasing, which fits in with what I'm training for at the moment, not like I'm stuffing my face with big macs etc and use at as an excuse to "bulk".

You are right, since I'm not training for looks/condition I am not worried about having abs or getting lean, since my end product is about getting as strong and as big as possible (muscle/fat)

[soundsgood]

Ronnie Coleman Used to never go above 5-6% in the offseason, in later years he would max at about 10%.

most IFBB pros would stay below 10% year round (I know there exceptions like Lee Priest).

just talking about some guys who are sitting around 20%+, ask them what they're up to, they tell you they are a bodybuilder, bulking. Nah your fat mate :pfft:

[perpetual_injuries]

If all this is true, then I would seem to me that you could get to 8% body fat and then provide your body only what it needed to build, maintain, repair and exercise. You would only gain fat if you were giving it more than it needed.

Thing is how do we know exactly how much our body needs? You would have to take into account calories burnt from workouts, resting, breaking down food, repairing muscle,walking to your car,etc. There's probably even variations in nutritional info of the foods, which may be minute but will still affect getting the calories spot on.

imo starting with ball park figures and modifying through trial and error is a more realistic approach.

So you're saying, yes it is possible. However balancing the diet can be somewhat tricky?

[Dr Squat]

Bodybuilding is about increasing muscle mass and being able to show it off. You can't increase it any faster by being fat (in fact I would argue it would slow progress down), and you definately can't show it off :pfft:

That's probably a moot point. I know of a top class NZ bodybuilder (does't compete at 65-70 kg lol) who gets up to 20% bodyfat over the off season and he grows a lot every year. But granted, there are probably examples of others who don't climb above 10% BF.

The thing to remember of course is that GH has changed the approach that many top level bodybuilders take to off season/contest prep.

[tomsammce]

Bodybuilding is about increasing muscle mass and being able to show it off. You can't increase it any faster by being fat (in fact I would argue it would slow progress down), and you definately can't show it off :pfft:

I know of a top class NZ bodybuilder (does't compete at 65-70 kg lol)

a top nz bodybuilder over 70kg!?! thats unheard of lol

[Phedder]

yes phedder you tell everyone to eat bad calories to gain muscle... fail

and phedder what is your real name ay sonny boy so i can call you by that?

No I don't, but I'm not going to begin arguing that with you again. Name's Sam by the way.

So you're saying, yes it is possible. However balancing the diet can be somewhat tricky?

I'd agree with that. It all comes to personal experimentation to find how much you need so you can make decent gains while limiting fat gain.

Don't really have much else to add to this thread, pretty much every possible opinion has been covered But I'd just like to say that I think it's great how determined Rookie is and that he has goals set and is doing what he has to to achieve them, and not being distracted by what other people's opinions are. Self believe and determination will take anyone far :nod:

[Big john]

bodyweight and strength take time..If rookie is at 20%bf and strength is still climbing hey, keep it up

amendment to above statement...rhodetown rules, Rookie is infact 20% jackedness :pfft: 8)