Swollen Dolan

[I Declare War]

Have you ever tried doggcrapp style training?

I reckon you might benefit from doing some aye. From the looks of your chest workouts your not really making appreciable strength gains from workout to workout.

I reckon you should try a HIT style program, at least for a while, to really work on getting strength up.

Have a read through this bro: http://www.ironmanmagazine.com/articles ... nferno.pdf

[Shutupandsquat]

I inclined the 40kg DBs for 2 reps earlier in the week which I've never even done one on flat bench... so I'd say my chest is gaining. Besides, I'm aiming for mass. That's why I'm training chest twice a week now...

[I Declare War]

I inclined the 40kg DBs for 2 reps earlier in the week which I've never even done one on flat bench... so I'd say my chest is gaining. Besides, I'm aiming for mass. That's why I'm training chest twice a week now...

Strength is mass to a very large degree, especially strength in the eccentric phase of lifting. You're aiming for mass... Then ask yourself why, at this stage in your development, you're doing flyes first in your routine.

Currently with the Incline Press you're doing 30kg DB's, over time as you get bigger and stronger, you can potentially push that upwards to 60-70kg DB's, whereas flyes don't have that potential... you won't even be using 50-60kg DB's for any good form with flyes during your time as a bodybuilder. This is the reason pressing movements are better mass builders than fly type movements.

By doing flyes first you're not able to fully focus on building up your press. I know you might not always do flyes first... but I'd argue that you should never do fyes first, especially with your goals of putting on mass.

HarryB, for example, can get away with doing flyes first, but that's only because he's much more advanced than you are. He can argue that doing flyes first pre-exhausts his pecs, so that he doesn't need to use dangerous weights for pressing. That argument doesn't hold for you though - you're not at the stage where you're working with a weight where there's much possibility of tearing your pectorals or at a level where there is danger to yourself working out without a spotter.

[Shutupandsquat]

As stated bro, I'm doing it twice a week. So the first chest workout of the week, I'll start off with incline pressing. I can do the 30s with ease, even when pre-exhausted, I was just controlling the movement more than usual.

So, I'm targeting the chest in a different way for both workouts so my chest can grow in depth, width and just genuine mass. Considering I have only just started doing it, I'm not going to change it just because it isn't 'ideal'.

Also, if you're going to mention HarryB, he was the one who told me to pre-exhaust every couple of workouts. Remind yourself that I'm not on gear and I still have a good 30 years in me.

By the way, after only one week of working chest twice a week, and that's with pre -exhausting my strength had gone up. In fact it went up 2 reps on the 36 DBs.

[Shutupandsquat]

also 3.27am?!

[I Declare War]

So, I'm targeting the chest in a different way for both workouts so my chest can grow in depth, width and just genuine mass. Considering I have only just started doing it, I'm not going to change it just because it isn't 'ideal'.

That's not how the chest works... Flyes Isolate the pecs, whereas Presses involve the pecs in a compound amongst other muscle groups.

It's not the same when someone says they are training back for width and then for thickness. With back thickness means the trapezius and width means the lattisimus. With chest... there is no such parallel.

Also, if you're going to mention HarryB, he was the one who told me to pre-exhaust every couple of workouts. Remind yourself that I'm not on gear and I still have a good 30 years in me.

He may have other reasons and it would be cool if he could chime in on this thread.

As stated bro, I'm doing it twice a week. So the first chest workout of the week, I'll start off with incline pressing. I can do the 30s with ease, even when pre-exhausted, I was just controlling the movement more than usual.

By the way, after only one week of working chest twice a week, and that's with pre -exhausting my strength had gone up. In fact it went up 2 reps on the 36 DBs.

Twice a week with that kind of volume is over-training for a natural. Either that or you just aren't training intensely enough.

You might not be going backwards... but I doubt you're going forwards as quickly as you can.

[Shutupandsquat]

So I should just train average?

[Shutupandsquat]

Back and biceps

Deadlifts

60/?

100/5

140/5

165/6

Close grip, reverse lat pull downs

54.5/8

63.5/8

72/8

91.5/6FR + 2 negatives

DB rows

50/10

50/8 x 2 sets

Machine seated rows

71/10

84/8

Rope pull overs -SS- DB curls

50/10 -SS- 10/10

50/12 -SS- 10/10

58/12 -SS- 10/15 10 second rest 10/5

Machine preacher curls (lbs)

25/20

25/15

25/20

BB 21s

20

25

Good back pump and a really good bicep pump. Probably gonna go shower, eat and play some Pokemon and get ready for the New Year.

HAPPY NEW YEARS!

[I Declare War]

So I should just train average?

Train a smartly as possible given the information at hand.

Happy New Years!

[drizzt]

By the way, after only one week of working chest twice a week, and that's with pre -exhausting my strength had gone up. In fact it went up 2 reps on the 36 DBs.

Twice a week with that kind of volume is over-training for a natural. Either that or you just aren't training intensely enough.

:-s I've just come off a few weeks of 4x per week squatting alongside 4x per week benching - lots of volume on both - and feel fantastic. Stronger, bit more size too :nod: And I'm sure people around the gym can vouch for intensity, although that is more a bodybuilder aim I guess, I'm just there for the reps. Oh and I'm natural, for whatever that is worth.

Not sure where this "don't train too hard or you'll overtrain" line of thought comes from, I think if most people tried it out instead of simply listening to popular opinion on the topic, they'd be surprised at what their body can handle.

My advice SUAS; you have a great work ethic, but most of all, you're still damn young. Try this stuff out, you've got plenty of time to make mistakes and grow. Looking forward to seeing you get even bigger and stronger next year 8) Happy new years!

[I Declare War]

By the way, after only one week of working chest twice a week, and that's with pre -exhausting my strength had gone up. In fact it went up 2 reps on the 36 DBs.

Twice a week with that kind of volume is over-training for a natural. Either that or you just aren't training intensely enough.

:-s I've just come off a few weeks of 4x per week squatting alongside 4x per week benching - lots of volume on both - and feel fantastic. Stronger, bit more size too :nod: And I'm sure people around the gym can vouch for intensity, although that is more a bodybuilder aim I guess, I'm just there for the reps. Oh and I'm natural, for whatever that is worth.

Not sure where this "don't train too hard or you'll overtrain" line of thought comes from, I think if most people tried it out instead of simply listening to popular opinion on the topic, they'd be surprised at what their body can handle.

My advice SUAS; you have a great work ethic, but most of all, you're still damn young. Try this stuff out, you've got plenty of time to make mistakes and grow. Looking forward to seeing you get even bigger and stronger next year 8) Happy new years!

Its not about how many times you work your muscles per week, it is about giving them adequate rest and then training them again at the optimal time. The key is finding how much is the right amount and doing that.

You, Drizzt, training those exercises 4 times per week is just obsessive compulsiveness and nothing else, sure you might still be making okay gains... but they wont be optimal gains.

Just look at what you've got in quotes there Drizzt, "don't train too hard or you'll overtrain". Too hard implies that it's too much, too much of anything is just that - too much. Just because you can still make steps forward doing too much does not make it a good way to train.

It may be possible to do short periods of training "too hard" followed by a period of maintenance or no training. Sometimes this can yield a supercompensation effect. But that requires periodisation... keep that in mind.

Yep I agree with you re SUAS should try things out and see what works. In the end it's what works for yourself and not someone else.

That's only part of the argument though. My main gripe was with the flyes first at his level of development. It just doesn't really make sense... if you're trying to build the most mass.

Here's a good post on another board...

There are several wrong assumptions with your post. It is true that the flat bench press works the triceps and delts as much as the pecs and that exercises such as pec deck flyes and dumbbell flyes work the pecs more. But it does not matter because the amount of resistence the bench press allows you to put ends up working the pecs more than the other exercises that work the pecs more directly. You put two guys, one of them to perform only pec deck flyes and the other to do only bench press, and the first guy will have bigger pecs after three months, but the second guy will have much bigger pecs after one year. A guy who can bench 400 lbs for reps will have much bigger pecs than a guy who does the entire stack in the pec deck machine for reps.

Also, you can work the pecs far more directly by inclining the bench in a 30 degree angle. This increases the involvement of the pecs in the exercise, decreases the involvement of the triceps and increases the range of motion for the pecs' contractions. The slight incline bench press gives you more and faster growth in your pecs than any exercise that isolates the pecs. The minus is that you get less growth in your triceps and delts. The best exercise for overall torso thickness is not even the bench press, but the flat dumbbell bench press, as this involves even more muscle to balance the weight and works even your back muscles as stabilizers.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

[drizzt]

You, Drizzt, training those exercises 4 times per week is just obsessive compulsiveness and nothing else, sure you might still be making okay gains... but they wont be optimal gains.

Woah sorry buddy, I didn't mean to elicit such a rant from you All I'm saying is 100kg - natural - gain on my squat in about 7ish months training this way (180-280)... I'm not sure how much more optimal I could've made that? If I trained bench once per week over the past month instead of 4x, would I have put 10kg on it?

Look, I don't want to derail SUAS' thread too much, but you seem to be quite set in your ways and that's cool, whatever works for you, and coming from a similar mindset prior to this year I know exactly where you're coming from. Just maybe deviate from the set path once in a while and see what happens is all I'm suggesting. Hey if it doesn't work, you got your feet wet and have new training experience

I'll take my "obsessive compulsive sub-optimal" training out of this thread now :pfft: All the best guys!

[I Declare War]

You, Drizzt, training those exercises 4 times per week is just obsessive compulsiveness and nothing else, sure you might still be making okay gains... but they wont be optimal gains.

Woah sorry buddy, I didn't mean to elicit such a rant from you All I'm saying is 100kg - natural - gain on my squat in about 7ish months training this way (180-280)... I'm not sure how much more optimal I could've made that? If I trained bench once per week over the past month instead of 4x, would I have put 10kg on it?

Look, I don't want to derail SUAS' thread too much, but you seem to be quite set in your ways and that's cool, whatever works for you, and coming from a similar mindset prior to this year I know exactly where you're coming from. Just maybe deviate from the set path once in a while and see what happens is all I'm suggesting. Hey if it doesn't work, you got your feet wet and have new training experience

I'll take my "obsessive compulsive sub-optimal" training out of this thread now :pfft: All the best guys!

Hehe, sorry drizzt. 8) Just keep in mind what I said up there:

Its not about how many times you work your muscles per week, it is about giving them adequate rest and then training them again at the optimal time. The key is finding how much is the right amount and doing that.

That's found through a process of trial and error. So good on you guys for going at it and trying different things. I'm in the same process myself like everyone else on this board that goes to the gym. :-)

[Shutupandsquat]

I've only done it for two weeks so that's not really a big period of time to make noticeable gains. I completely understand where you're coming from, but I'm just switching it up to see if I do gain results from it.

Look at it this way, I may be starting off pec flyes in one workout, but I'm still starting off with a pressing movement in the other workout. I think if I spent both workouts pressing then that would not allow for, as you say, "adequate rest". I train heavy one workout and with volume another. It doesn't really seem like a silly idea to me.

My chest just lags so much I'm just doing whatever to try get it up to scratch, and like you said, trial and error. Like you quoted as well, pec flyes will get you a bigger chest over the first few months (or that was how I read it) and pressing will give you bigger pecs over a year. Once I feel my chest has caught up, I will go back to training it to once a week and probably only pre-exhausting once every month.

I do take in what you say because you do have a respectable chest man, I'm not taking away anything from you. But you have to understand, my body is different and like Drizzt said, I'm young. So I do thank you for your input, but I'm just gonna be a stubborn fuckhead and try do it my way. If it doesn't pay off, then I'll do as you say, and if it works, I will give credit where credit is due, but that would have to be a few months away (if I have to resort to it that is :pfft: )

Let's just be friends, eh guys? I'll also post up pics in a few months to show you if my chest has gained or remained shit.

[PeterDolan]

Kyle has strong arms with a pension for his tri's to help more than desired. Therefore flyes are a good idea in my eyes

[I Declare War]

:madman: :computer: :gunfire: Just kidding.

Sounds like you've got your head screwed on okay SUAS, that's a pretty good plan there, and you've got your older brother around to help guide you.

Kyle has strong arms with a pension for his tri's to help more than desired. Therefore flyes are a good idea in my eyes

Both you fellas used a pretty close-grip style set up for your bench in the videos you posted for SG's compeittion. Grip it a couple of inches further out each side and you'll bring them pecs in more. 8)

[PeterDolan]

I can't speak for junior but any wider and my delts work toomuch. Some days I can get away with it

[PeterDolan]

For the record, I don't think twice a week is the way to go but time will tell

[Shutupandsquat]

For the record, I don't think twice a week is the way to go but time will tell

I just wanna try it to see if it works. Could help with a bit of tricep and delt development too.

[Shutupandsquat]

Chest and calves

Incline DB press

16/20

20/15

30/10

32/9

38/7FR (just spotted through the second half of the last rep, strength actually appears to be increasing from training twice a week. Who knew?)

Flat DB press

32/8

32/7

38/6FR (got the first 5 on my own. Pretty happy with that considering I had done incline previously)

Machine press (lbs)

170/12

190/10

200/8

Flat flyes

22/7

22/8

22/9

Seated calf raises

1pl/15

2pl/12

3pl/10

4pl/8 DS! 3pl/5 DS! 2pl/10 DS! 1pl/12

Calves had a c*nt of a burn and my chest was so pumped. It felt awesome to press heavier than last week. Thinking about it, I'm pressing more reps with heavier DBs than before I had started training chest twice a week. Had a slight vein popping out. Yeah you could argue that I'm leaner, but uhhh not after Christmas so my chest is growing!

Stressing a bit because I think I left my wallet in my work pants and they could have gone through the wash. Stress isn't good for body development so I'm hoping that it happens so often that they check ALL the pockets!

[Shutupandsquat]

Legs

squats

60/15

60/10

100/10

140/6

180/3FR (Pretty gutted. Not as good as two weeks ago)

100/15 (glute cramp so I stopped)

Leg press -SS- Lunges

3pps/15 -SS- 24/10

3pps/15 -SS- 24/8

3pps/20 -SS- 24/8

Lying leg curls

50/15

50/12

60/8

40/16

Seated leg curls

45.5/13

72.5/7 DS! 45.5/8

pump all over. Yeah. Good and stuff. Not overly-ecstatic with squats but whatever, I'll still grow from it

[Shutupandsquat]

Shoulders and triceps

lateral raises

8/15

10/15

8/10 + 10/10 + 12/10

12/10 + 10/10 + 8/10

Wide grip Smith machine shoulder press

40/10

50/8

50/9

BB upright rows

42.5/10

50/8

50/8

Nautilus shoulder press

57/15

71/10

84/2 DS! 64/4 DS! 50/4

Rear raises

10/15 x 2 sets

14/15

Reverse pec deck (lbs)

70/15 x 3 sets

Machine tricep extensions (lbs)

35/20

45/15

55/10

65/10

75/4 DS! 60/4 DS! 45/5

Underhand cable pulldowns

36/15

41/12

now superset with dips

50/8 -SS- BW/20

45.5/8 -SS- BW/15

45.5/10 -SS- BW/16

shoulders took a while to become extremely pumped but they got there. Triceps felt tight even on the first warm up set. YARRRP

[thatwaslight]

[Shutupandsquat]

mirin' her bulk phase?

[Shutupandsquat]

Chest and calves

Incline flyes

10/20 x 2 sets

14/20

14/15

14/20

18/20

Pec deck (lbs)

80/20

80/20

100/15

Gayble flyes -SS- Dips

6pl/13 -SS- BW/15

6pl/10 -SS- BW/15

5pl/12 -SS- BW/15

Incline DB press

20/20 x 2 sets

20/16

Standing calf raises -SS- hack squat calf raises

1pps/15 -SS- 2pps/10 x 3 sets

1pps/15 -SS- 2pps/16

BURN! I have IOMS in my chest and a good burn in my calves.