Receptor site clearing

[thatwaslight]

Have been on for quite some time now running test at around 600-800mg and have included blasts of an additional 50mg dbol 4 weeks x 2 and tren e which im into my 10th week of.

its time for a break.

Can someone shed some light on any possible tips to speed up clearing sites and how long i will need to be off for them to clear sufficiently?

How long usually does it take for sites to become saturated to the point where diminishing returns occurs?

[musclenz]

Have been on for quite some time now running test at around 600-800mg and have included blasts of an additional 50mg dbol 4 weeks x 2 and tren e which im into my 10th week of.

its time for a break.

Can someone shed some light on any possible tips to speed up clearing sites and how long i will need to be off for them to clear sufficiently?

How long usually does it take for sites to become saturated to the point where diminishing returns occurs?

You might find this article interesting Big Fella -

THE MYTH OF RECEPTOR DOWNGRADE

There is much talk on the net about roids some people know what they are talking about, and some well are just reinforcing myths. One thing I hear about all the time is the topic of androgen receptors or (ARs). It seems many people still believe that over the course of a cycle ARs downgrade this just isnt the case. People argue the downgrade point because of the fact there comes a time growth slows or stops though the dose of testosterone hasn't changed.

It also stems from the fact that we know other receptors of the body do downgrade. Take ephedrine for example, it binds to beta-receptors, over a period of time the number of receptors on a target cell begins to decrease. This is due to a decrease in the half-life of receptor proteins without a decrease in the rate that the cell is making new receptors which leads to a decrease in the potency of a given dose.

The above happens with many substances and receptors but androgen receptors are very different. Many studies that are coming out these days show in the presence of high concentrations of testosterone receptors up regulate to consume the higher amounts of testosterone in the body. When you stop growing it is not because of down regulation and here is why.

Most everyone knows a little about how steroids work increased protein synthesis right? Well there is much more to it than that. They also increase the activity of satellite cells, GH and igf-1, also increase new myofiber formation.

In one study I read a 500mg injection of testosterone per week increased GH levels by 18% and IGF-1 levels by 15% that shows a powerful effect! Activation of satellite cells by testosterone requires IGF-1 and as a loop effect aromatized test that turns to estrogen again increases IGF-1 so each plays off the other with the end result being increased satellite cell production. This leads to a greater capacity for protein synthesis by increasing fusion of satellite cells to existing fibers.

Proliferation of satellite cells is needed in order to meet the needs of thousands of muscle cells all potentially requiring additional nuclei. Differentiation is necessary in order for the new nucleus to behave as a nucleus of muscle origin. The number of myonuclei directly determines the capacity of a muscle cell to manufacture proteins, including androgen receptors.

So you see the increased test levels actually increase satellite cells which in turn down the road increase receptors. It also seems the higher the dose the more the activity of satellite cells increase. That doesn't mean jump right in to 2-3g doses of test you have to build up receptors over time. All jumping up to a huge amount of test will do is give you an estrogen level of a tranny queen who happens to have muscle lol.

Here are a few quotes to support my claims

Endocrinology (1990) 126 1165. In fibroblasts cultured from human genital skin which contained very low amounts of 5-alpha reductase, 2 nanomolar tritium-labeled testosterone [which is sufficient to saturate ARs] produced a 34% increase in androgen receptors as measured by specific AR binding, the best assay method known, and 20 nanomolar tritium-labeled testosterone produced an increase of 64% in number of ARs.

J Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology (1990) 37 553. In cultured adipocytes, methyltrienolone and testosterone demonstrated marked up regulation of AR content upon administration of androgen. 10 nanomolar methyltrienolone increased AR content (as measured by binding to radiolabeled androgen) by more than five times, relative to zero androgen.

J Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology (1993) 45 333. In cultured smooth muscle cells from the penis of the rat, mRNA production was found to be up regulated by high dose testosterone (100 nanomolar) or DHT. When 5-alpha reducatase was inhibited by finasteride, thus blocking metabolism to DHT, AR mRNA production was down regulated in response to testosterone. Blockage of the aromatization pathway to estrogen by fadrozole eliminated this downregulation effect. Estradiol itself was found to down regulate AR mRNA production in these cells.

Endocrinol Japan (1992) 39 235. One nanomolar DHT was demonstrated to increase AR protein by over 100% within 24 hours, relative to zero androgen level. The half life of the AR was demonstrated to increase from 3.3 h to 7.5 h as a result of the androgen administration.

Endocrinology (1996) 137 1385. 100 nanomolar testosterone was found to increase AR levels in vitro in muscle satellite cells, myotubes, and muscle-derived fibroblasts.

The main reason growth stops when the dose remains the same is the body doesn't like change, it will fight you every step of the way. When you increase the amount of anabolic hormones, catabolic hormones will rise as well. When the concentration of catabolic hormones is high enough growth is off set or even stops. When that happens you can do one of two things. Stop taking gear so the body can return to normal or increase the amount of test to once more be in an anabolic state. The increase in receptors is the reason you can use more and more test every cycle, and the funny thing is these receptors once built will hang around for a very long time even years ever increasing your ability to build muscle .

* Article by priest943, Moderator / Ironlife staff writer.

[thatwaslight]

Wow brilliant read mnz!

So the diminishing returns is from excess catabolic hormones rather than saturated receptor sites?

Mnz, when do you think dose's in the 2-3 gram range are applicable?

i have never gone over 1g a week and i don't suffer any side effects other than testicular atrophy (unsure whats happening on the inside though as i need to get bloods done to check)

When does a person reach the point where doses well over 1g are appropriate?

:edit, if this is the case NEVER coming of LOLLOL

[Dontrunwithknives]

and the funny thing is these receptors once built will hang around for a very long time even years ever increasing your ability to build muscle.

Interesting :nod:

[Daz69]

Another very informative post M'nz......

I have been reading up on this topic recently & this confirms yet another another Old School myth is dispelled...

I have a few further questions regarding the recent article

In one study I read a 500mg injection of testosterone per week increased GH levels by 18% and IGF-1 levels by 15% that shows a powerful effect! Activation of satellite cells by testosterone requires IGF-1 and as a loop effect aromatized test that turns to estrogen again increases IGF-1 so each plays off the other with the end result being increased satellite cell production. This leads to a greater capacity for protein synthesis by increasing fusion of satellite cells to existing fibers.

Regarding my recent post of aromitizing inhibitors on cycle, & the above information...

Can I assume the benefits of increased IGF-1 by aromatised estrogen, are out weighed by the negetive effects of estrogen build up on cycle..?

And that I should continue taking 0.5mg of Arimidex EOD as per previous instructions.............

The main reason growth stops when the dose remains the same is the body doesn't like change, it will fight you every step of the way. When you increase the amount of anabolic hormones, catabolic hormones will rise as well. When the concentration of catabolic hormones is high enough growth is off set or even stops. When that happens you can do one of two things. Stop taking gear so the body can return to normal or increase the amount of test to once more be in an anabolic state. The increase in receptors is the reason you can use more and more test every cycle, and the funny thing is these receptors once built will hang around for a very long time even years ever increasing your ability to build muscle .

By catabolic hormones can I assume you are mostly refering to Cortisol?

(i) Can anything be done to inhibit this rise in catabolic hormones on cycle..?

(ii) When Off Cycle, Clenbuterol is advised to address the issue of a rush of Cortisol....

(a) What happens to that Cortisol.? Is it sort of held back, unable to be effective, but still in the body at high levels..?

(b) What happens when Clenbuterol is stopped, do you still get a high rush of Cortisol anyway..?

© If so, how can the high levels of cortisol be decreased in the body..?

:wink:

[Daz69]

Wow brilliant read mnz!

So the diminishing returns is from excess catabolic hormones rather than saturated receptor sites?

Mnz, when do you think dose's in the 2-3 gram range are applicable?

i have never gone over 1g a week and i don't suffer any side effects other than testicular atrophy (unsure whats happening on the inside though as i need to get bloods done to check)

When does a person reach the point where doses well over 1g are appropriate?

:edit, if this is the case NEVER coming of LOLLOL

How long have you been using gear?

Can you remember what dose you started on, & make a list your cycles showing what you have progressed up to now?

Show your starting weight, & your weight now..

Maybe add your progress on bench, D'Lift & Squats....

:wink:

[bob26]

Have been on for quite some time now running test at around 600-800mg and have included blasts of an additional 50mg dbol 4 weeks x 2 and tren e which im into my 10th week of.

its time for a break.

Can someone shed some light on any possible tips to speed up clearing sites and how long i will need to be off for them to clear sufficiently?

How long usually does it take for sites to become saturated to the point where diminishing returns occurs?

You might find this article interesting Big Fella -

THE MYTH OF RECEPTOR DOWNGRADE

There is much talk on the net about roids some people know what they are talking about, and some well are just reinforcing myths. One thing I hear about all the time is the topic of androgen receptors or (ARs). It seems many people still believe that over the course of a cycle ARs downgrade this just isnt the case. People argue the downgrade point because of the fact there comes a time growth slows or stops though the dose of testosterone hasn't changed.

It also stems from the fact that we know other receptors of the body do downgrade. Take ephedrine for example, it binds to beta-receptors, over a period of time the number of receptors on a target cell begins to decrease. This is due to a decrease in the half-life of receptor proteins without a decrease in the rate that the cell is making new receptors which leads to a decrease in the potency of a given dose.

The above happens with many substances and receptors but androgen receptors are very different. Many studies that are coming out these days show in the presence of high concentrations of testosterone receptors up regulate to consume the higher amounts of testosterone in the body. When you stop growing it is not because of down regulation and here is why.

Most everyone knows a little about how steroids work increased protein synthesis right? Well there is much more to it than that. They also increase the activity of satellite cells, GH and igf-1, also increase new myofiber formation.

In one study I read a 500mg injection of testosterone per week increased GH levels by 18% and IGF-1 levels by 15% that shows a powerful effect! Activation of satellite cells by testosterone requires IGF-1 and as a loop effect aromatized test that turns to estrogen again increases IGF-1 so each plays off the other with the end result being increased satellite cell production. This leads to a greater capacity for protein synthesis by increasing fusion of satellite cells to existing fibers.

Proliferation of satellite cells is needed in order to meet the needs of thousands of muscle cells all potentially requiring additional nuclei. Differentiation is necessary in order for the new nucleus to behave as a nucleus of muscle origin. The number of myonuclei directly determines the capacity of a muscle cell to manufacture proteins, including androgen receptors.

So you see the increased test levels actually increase satellite cells which in turn down the road increase receptors. It also seems the higher the dose the more the activity of satellite cells increase. That doesn't mean jump right in to 2-3g doses of test you have to build up receptors over time. All jumping up to a huge amount of test will do is give you an estrogen level of a tranny queen who happens to have muscle lol.

Here are a few quotes to support my claims

Endocrinology (1990) 126 1165. In fibroblasts cultured from human genital skin which contained very low amounts of 5-alpha reductase, 2 nanomolar tritium-labeled testosterone [which is sufficient to saturate ARs] produced a 34% increase in androgen receptors as measured by specific AR binding, the best assay method known, and 20 nanomolar tritium-labeled testosterone produced an increase of 64% in number of ARs.

J Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology (1990) 37 553. In cultured adipocytes, methyltrienolone and testosterone demonstrated marked up regulation of AR content upon administration of androgen. 10 nanomolar methyltrienolone increased AR content (as measured by binding to radiolabeled androgen) by more than five times, relative to zero androgen.

J Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology (1993) 45 333. In cultured smooth muscle cells from the penis of the rat, mRNA production was found to be up regulated by high dose testosterone (100 nanomolar) or DHT. When 5-alpha reducatase was inhibited by finasteride, thus blocking metabolism to DHT, AR mRNA production was down regulated in response to testosterone. Blockage of the aromatization pathway to estrogen by fadrozole eliminated this downregulation effect. Estradiol itself was found to down regulate AR mRNA production in these cells.

Endocrinol Japan (1992) 39 235. One nanomolar DHT was demonstrated to increase AR protein by over 100% within 24 hours, relative to zero androgen level. The half life of the AR was demonstrated to increase from 3.3 h to 7.5 h as a result of the androgen administration.

Endocrinology (1996) 137 1385. 100 nanomolar testosterone was found to increase AR levels in vitro in muscle satellite cells, myotubes, and muscle-derived fibroblasts.

The main reason growth stops when the dose remains the same is the body doesn't like change, it will fight you every step of the way. When you increase the amount of anabolic hormones, catabolic hormones will rise as well. When the concentration of catabolic hormones is high enough growth is off set or even stops. When that happens you can do one of two things. Stop taking gear so the body can return to normal or increase the amount of test to once more be in an anabolic state. The increase in receptors is the reason you can use more and more test every cycle, and the funny thing is these receptors once built will hang around for a very long time even years ever increasing your ability to build muscle .

* Article by priest943, Moderator / Ironlife staff writer.

good read

[thatwaslight]

Ran 500mg test first cycle for 15weeks then 8 weeks off then back on 500mg Again for 20weeks then 10week break then after that I have stayed on since, i have only just started using other compounds dbol and tren. Total time on prob 14 months

Start weight 77kg

Current weight 92kg

Start 1rm bench 95kg, now 150kg

Start 1rm dead 160kg now 230kg

[musclenz]

Wow brilliant read mnz!

So the diminishing returns is from excess catabolic hormones rather than saturated receptor sites?

Mnz, when do you think dose's in the 2-3 gram range are applicable?

i have never gone over 1g a week and i don't suffer any side effects other than testicular atrophy (unsure whats happening on the inside though as i need to get bloods done to check)

When does a person reach the point where doses well over 1g are appropriate?

:edit, if this is the case NEVER coming of LOLLOL

Anything over 2 grams PW is putting a lot of stress on the body. Eventually the above hypothethis of diminishing returns seems to come into play even at 3g . I think that this is why we use the cruise & blast principle when on long term. In the end you need to keep the body guessing so I change my compounds & esters of testosterone around now in preference to doing the high numbers in an attempt to keeping ahead of the bodies ability for homeostasis.

[musclenz]

Another very informative post M'nz......

I have been reading up on this topic recently & this confirms yet another another Old School myth is dispelled...

I have a few further questions regarding the recent article

In one study I read a 500mg injection of testosterone per week increased GH levels by 18% and IGF-1 levels by 15% that shows a powerful effect! Activation of satellite cells by testosterone requires IGF-1 and as a loop effect aromatized test that turns to estrogen again increases IGF-1 so each plays off the other with the end result being increased satellite cell production. This leads to a greater capacity for protein synthesis by increasing fusion of satellite cells to existing fibers.

Regarding my recent post of aromitizing inhibitors on cycle, & the above information...

Can I assume the benefits of increased IGF-1 by aromatised estrogen, are out weighed by the negetive effects of estrogen build up on cycle..?

And that I should continue taking 0.5mg of Arimidex EOD as per previous instructions.............

Obviously this is about the fine line of balance of allowing enough estrogen in the body esp given the higher levels of test being administered, to allow for IGF & Gh production but without the negatives of estrogen overload. Again this is all about balance & is perhaps one reason we have reluctance to use high levels of AI's & the negative effects we feel on cycle. Finding a dose that allows a balance to be established is perhaps our greatest challenge as a BBer.

The main reason growth stops when the dose remains the same is the body doesn't like change, it will fight you every step of the way. When you increase the amount of anabolic hormones, catabolic hormones will rise as well. When the concentration of catabolic hormones is high enough growth is off set or even stops. When that happens you can do one of two things. Stop taking gear so the body can return to normal or increase the amount of test to once more be in an anabolic state. The increase in receptors is the reason you can use more and more test every cycle, and the funny thing is these receptors once built will hang around for a very long time even years ever increasing your ability to build muscle .

By catabolic hormones can I assume you are mostly refering to Cortisol?

(i) Can anything be done to inhibit this rise in catabolic hormones on cycle..?

(ii) When Off Cycle, Clenbuterol is advised to address the issue of a rush of Cortisol....

(a) What happens to that Cortisol.? Is it sort of held back, unable to be effective, but still in the body at high levels..?

(b) What happens when Clenbuterol is stopped, do you still get a high rush of Cortisol anyway..?

© If so, how can the high levels of cortisol be decreased in the body..?

:wink:

Cortisol is not necessarly our enemy. It is a major hormone secreted by the adrenals in response to stress both physically & emotionally. It interacts in many functions in the body. It is the bodies way of putting us into a fight or flight response mode by increasing blood sugar levels to give us extra fuel. It is all part of the enocrine system including the thryoid, pancreas, testes/ovaries & andrenals. If any of these are out of wack it has an effect on the others & homone imbalances occur. I think this is what he is saying about catabolic hormones. Like limited T4 coming out of the thyroid certainly has a big effect on our metabolism (T4 convers to T3). When the body is under stress it prioritizes cortisol at the expense of T4, Testosterone, DHEA, estrogen production so this is what we have to deal with. There are some drugs that inhibit cortisol production like magnesium, omega3, Vit C, loperamide, Lysodren etc but it might be better to laugh more, listen to music, meditate & have more sex :grin:

[Chemo]

Ran 500mg test first cycle for 15weeks then 8 weeks off then back on 500mg Again for 20weeks then 10week break then after that I have stayed on since, i have only just started using other compounds dbol and tren. Total time on prob 14 months

Start weight 77kg

Current weight 92kg

Start 1rm bench 95kg, now 150kg

Start 1rm dead 160kg now 230kg

Oh snap! thats some enhancement alright.

I like this:

"The increase in receptors is the reason you can use more and more test every cycle, and the funny thing is these receptors once built will hang around for a very long time even years ever increasing your ability to build muscle ."

"There are some drugs that inhibit cortisol production like magnesium, omega3, Vit C, loperamide, Lysodren etc but it might be better to laugh more, listen to music, meditate & have more sex"

Good thread lots of interesting stuff here, and good advice :pfft:

[lightscribe]

Run a huge pct with bloods / Come off an stay off for a significant amount of time. It's the smart thing to do. But you didn't need me to tell you this.

[kdn]

thats amazing

[goku_kakarot77]

yup i have read over and over again in my studies about down-regulation of AR. in a quick vague way its a myth, your body produces more AR as the muscle size increases

peace

[Daz69]

Obviously this is about the fine line of balance of allowing enough estrogen in the body esp given the higher levels of test being administered, to allow for IGF & Gh production but without the negatives of estrogen overload. Again this is all about balance & is perhaps one reason we have reluctance to use high levels of AI's & the negative effects we feel on cycle. Finding a dose that allows a balance to be established is perhaps our greatest challenge as a BBer.

I would agree, it's all about balance..... I wonder if some form of testing could be done on cycle to attain a greater degree of accuracy....

On the same subject:

I appreciate AI's block the conversion of Testosterone to Estrogen, but

Would the levels of Estrogen naturally produced in the body be affected by the AI's..????

Cortisol is not necessarly our enemy. It is a major hormone secreted by the adrenals in response to stress both physically & emotionally. It interacts in many functions in the body. It is the bodies way of putting us into a fight or flight response mode by increasing blood sugar levels to give us extra fuel. It is all part of the enocrine system including the thryoid, pancreas, testes/ovaries & andrenals. If any of these are out of wack it has an effect on the others & homone imbalances occur. I think this is what he is saying about catabolic hormones. Like limited T4 coming out of the thyroid certainly has a big effect on our metabolism (T4 convers to T3). When the body is under stress it prioritizes cortisol at the expense of T4, Testosterone, DHEA, estrogen production so this is what we have to deal with. There are some drugs that inhibit cortisol production like magnesium, omega3, Vit C, loperamide, Lysodren etc but it might be better to laugh more, listen to music, meditate & have more sex :grin:

By Catabolic Hormones, Can I assume you are refering mainly to Cortisol..?

I fully appreciate Cortisol has a vital role to play within the body, I never meant to imply blocking it completely, mearly addressing the balance of the abnormally high levels & the adverse affects it has on muscle growth nearing the end of cycle...

It might be worth experimenting with Magnesium, Omega3 etc towards the end of a steroid regime........ Sex would be more fun tho'.... :grin:

If high testosterone levels are the contributary factor of high catabolic hormone problems, could testosterone levels be decreased over a longer period nearing the end of cycle..???

I have read much about Cortisol build-up, rush etc.....

How long is Cortisol actually in your body..? Hours, weeks, months..??

[Daz69]

Have been on for quite some time now running test at around 600-800mg and have included blasts of an additional 50mg dbol 4 weeks x 2 and tren e which im into my 10th week of.

its time for a break.

Can someone shed some light on any possible tips to speed up clearing sites and how long i will need to be off for them to clear sufficiently?

How long usually does it take for sites to become saturated to the point where diminishing returns occurs?

If high doses of Testosterone are the indirect result of deminishing returns, end of cycle, then maybe higher testosterone administration may not be the way forward....

Maybe understanding more about our compounds & their synergistic qualitys when combined in different combinations might yield better results...

Like M'nz said cruise blast between various different stacks, taking advantage of their synergistic qualitys, keeping the body guessing, rather than jumping up to a massive dose.....

I don't believe a high dosage is the answer, in the short term... Maybe to build up over a number of years is....

Maybe members would like to suggest various stacks & why ..?

[goku_kakarot77]

Have been on for quite some time now running test at around 600-800mg and have included blasts of an additional 50mg dbol 4 weeks x 2 and tren e which im into my 10th week of.

its time for a break.

Can someone shed some light on any possible tips to speed up clearing sites and how long i will need to be off for them to clear sufficiently?

How long usually does it take for sites to become saturated to the point where diminishing returns occurs?

If high doses of Testosterone are the indirect result of deminishing returns, end of cycle, then maybe higher testosterone administration may not be the way forward....

Maybe understanding more about our compounds & their synergistic qualitys when combined in different combinations might yield better results...

Like M'nz said cruise blast between various different stacks, taking advantage of their synergistic qualitys, keeping the body guessing, rather than jumping up to a massive dose.....

I don't believe a high dosage is the answer, in the short term... Maybe to build up over a number of years is....

Maybe members would like to suggest various stacks & why ..?

A good example of a synergistic effective cycle would be test+prov+tbol,

both the tbol and esp prov lower SHBG which in return leaves you with more free test, and there would be no reason to use alot of test then too , works very well, proviron is underrated i think most people dont realise the benefits of it. It should be used more frequently and also to mention what it does to your body cosmetically is amazing too.

peace

[samoan_muscle]

Have been on for quite some time now running test at around 600-800mg and have included blasts of an additional 50mg dbol 4 weeks x 2 and tren e which im into my 10th week of.

its time for a break.

Can someone shed some light on any possible tips to speed up clearing sites and how long i will need to be off for them to clear sufficiently?

How long usually does it take for sites to become saturated to the point where diminishing returns occurs?

If high doses of Testosterone are the indirect result of deminishing returns, end of cycle, then maybe higher testosterone administration may not be the way forward....

Maybe understanding more about our compounds & their synergistic qualitys when combined in different combinations might yield better results...

Like M'nz said cruise blast between various different stacks, taking advantage of their synergistic qualitys, keeping the body guessing, rather than jumping up to a massive dose.....

I don't believe a high dosage is the answer, in the short term... Maybe to build up over a number of years is....

Maybe members would like to suggest various stacks & why ..?

A good example of a synergistic effective cycle would be test+prov+tbol,

both the tbol and esp prov lower SHBG which in return leaves you with more free test, and there would be no reason to use alot of test then too , works very well, proviron is underrated i think most people dont realise the benefits of it. It should be used more frequently and also to mention what it does to your body cosmetically is amazing too.

peace

What's a good proviron dose goku?

[goku_kakarot77]

If high doses of Testosterone are the indirect result of deminishing returns, end of cycle, then maybe higher testosterone administration may not be the way forward....

Maybe understanding more about our compounds & their synergistic qualitys when combined in different combinations might yield better results...

Like M'nz said cruise blast between various different stacks, taking advantage of their synergistic qualitys, keeping the body guessing, rather than jumping up to a massive dose.....

I don't believe a high dosage is the answer, in the short term... Maybe to build up over a number of years is....

Maybe members would like to suggest various stacks & why ..?

A good example of a synergistic effective cycle would be test+prov+tbol,

both the tbol and esp prov lower SHBG which in return leaves you with more free test, and there would be no reason to use alot of test then too , works very well, proviron is underrated i think most people dont realise the benefits of it. It should be used more frequently and also to mention what it does to your body cosmetically is amazing too.

peace

What's a good proviron dose goku?

say with 300-500mgs test 50mgs of prov will do, above 500mgs test (which is not necessary 75mgs prov. amazing compound it is indeed, mild anti estro, excellent fat burning properties cause it binds tightly to the androgen receptors. higher libido, hardness + vascularity, lowers SHBG, improves mood too, at the end of the day it is how much "free" hormone you have in your system. proviron lowers SHBG which means better activity of the drug and more anabolic effect.

peace playah

[oldfella]

Been using 25mg Prov ED with 500mg teste. Split the Prov morning and evening.

[Ryno33]

good shiz itt. :think: