The great AAS / PED's Debate

[nate225]

It had to come up sooner or later....... so after a few requests here it is, the great debate on the use of AAS (Anabolic Steroids) & PED's (Performance Enhancing Drugs) in sports & life! :grin:

The world according to Nate pans out like this (copy n paste from a previous rant!):

I have absolutely no problem with athletes / people choosing to use AAS or PED's. It is entirely a moral decision that they are entitled to make. HOWEVER, when athletes using AAS / PED's choose to enter a tested federation they are cheating 'clean' athletes from having the opportunity to compete on a level playing field. There are plenty of options for users, they shouldn't have to even go near tested comps - and if they do, they do so at their own peril.

Using AAS / PED's = a moral decision / personal choice

Competing in a tested federation when using AAS / PED's = CHEATING

What is your view of the situation?

Are AAS wonder drugs that the world should embrace?

Are they a scourge on society, perhaps a gateway drug?

Maybe in certain circumstances they're okay, but not in sports?

All opinions are valid so fire away, but let's keep this civil! The Mods will police this one hard so no personal attacks please.

Nate

[Beowulf]

I'm from the school of thought that there should be a federation for clean athletes and one for juiced athletes in my opinion this would maintain a level playing field but would also be amazing to watch what the human body is capable of with some help.

[TonganTerror]

I think the world wide average joe needs to see and realise how many people are on these drugs as the general public only sees the shocking horror stories and not the fact a lot of everyday people take AAS/PEDs to help them be stronger leaner faster fitter BETTER!

Are they a scourge on society, perhaps a gateway drug?

Great question nate my views are that sure users may get addicted and need to finance their habit not just the AAS but also the food training etc with supplementary income which can lead to ripping others off or selling illegal drugs to support the drug of choice, however the same must be said of someone whom drinks too much they often ruin their families lives and lose friends and jobs through the use of this particular drug which society turns a blind eye to due to its "legal :roll: "

In sport my view is make AAS/PEDs legal lets see what the world can do in 100m, highjump, rugby, swimming... all sports the ratings will go through the roof and itll be a mean spectacle!!!!!

[Jigga]

I'm from the school of thought that there should be a federation for clean athletes and one for juiced athletes in my opinion this would maintain a level playing field but would also be amazing to watch what the human body is capable of with some help.

In sport my view is make AAS/PEDs legal lets see what the world can do in 100m, highjump, rugby, swimming... all sports the ratings will go through the roof and itll be a mean spectacle!!!!!

Do you think that is analogous to saying we should give marathon runners springed shoes to see how much more time they can cut off the WR? Where do you stop?

If you were to separate the Olympics into juiced and clean divisions it would belittle the clean division. The natural division would be like womens rugby - no one gives a f*ck. Then athletes who want to be the world champion would have to step into the drugged division to be taken seriously. For a lot of people the sides of taking drugs aren't worth it. I probably harm my body more than most people who take AAS but if I really cared about my health I would find being put in that situation pretty fucking unfair.

I could carrying on that train of thought to the Olympia but debating it with a lot of the people on here would give me a headache.

[TonganTerror]

solid thought process jigga :nod:

[Mrbig]

in personal life no one should care what another does to themselves if people wanna use gear to look better be stronger let them its their body

there are so many people in sport already using and everyone else is so ignorant to say their not we wanna see how fast someone can run,jump throw etc but then when some1 gets busted everybody hates on them

but yes in a sport that is clean no enhanced athlete should enter but 1 persons version of clean is different to another I would really like to know how many people who enter clean powerlifting comps are actually clean all the time

plus the more we know the better for us I mean alcohol and cigarettes are legal but kill more people than anything else

[tinytraps]

in personal life no one should care what another does to themselves if people wanna use gear to look better be stronger let them its their body

there are so many people in sport already using and everyone else is so ignorant to say their not we wanna see how fast someone can run,jump throw etc but then when some1 gets busted everybody hates on them

but yes in a sport that is clean no enhanced athlete should enter but 1 persons version of clean is different to another I would really like to know how many people who enter clean powerlifting comps are actually clean all the time

plus the more we know the better for us I mean alcohol and cigarettes are legal but kill more people than anything else

In new zealand we have a pretty good track record overseas it can be a bit :?

I dont have anything against people juicing unless there in competition.

What pisses me off is when guys use AAS as a cop out for not wanting to put hours in the gym and training hard or to level the playing field for "bad genetics". IMO you should exhaust your natural capabilities first and then try the gear to see where you can go.

[AgentOrange]

IMO you should exhaust your natural capabilities first and then try the gear to see where you can go.

Why do people always say this? How do you know when you have hit your natural potential? Why do people see AAS as some kind of reward for finally hitting the so called 'natural potential' IMO train hard for a few years and if you want go on gear and hit your natural potential + surpass it do it.

[Dontrunwithknives]

IMO you should exhaust your natural capabilities first and then try the gear to see where you can go.

Why do people always say this? How do you know when you have hit your natural potential? Why do people see AAS as some kind of reward for finally hitting the so called 'natural potential' IMO train hard for a few years and if you want go on gear and hit your natural potential + surpass it do it.

Agreed.

[tinytraps]

Its more a case for the guys that come into the gym train half assed for 3months see no results and start asking where to get the gear from. Taken this from an article I read a whille back

Get as big and strong as the old school lifters (reeves, park et al) and then juice.

How many people can say they got to Reg Park-esque proportions before taking AAS? How many people would get like that taking?

Just my opinion.

[ThePman]

Why do people always say this? How do you know when you have hit your natural potential? Why do people see AAS as some kind of reward for finally hitting the so called 'natural potential' IMO train hard for a few years and if you want go on gear and hit your natural potential + surpass it do it.

I think the "natural potential" thing is a bit of a red herring. It'd be more accurate to say that a person should have been at it long enough to know how to train and eat right before it's worth the time. This is the difference between the 70kg "I've been training for three months I think I'm ready for a cycle" kids and the guys that have proven they can get bigger/stronger/leaner/whatever without any help.

Even then, the mindset regarding any performance enhancer, not just AAS, tend to be that they give you gains, rather than enhance the work that you do. Just look at how many people measure AAS gains by how much weight they put on, and how much they lose coming off a cycle, even if it's all water weight. This is the same reason people will say creatine doesn't "work" because they don't automatically put on 5kg. Most of the time people in this boat are using things because they have no idea how to train and/or eat right, and instead of looking to that they want to pop a quick cycle of dbol to add some quick gains (bloat).

If you're expecting the thing you're taking to do it all for you, odds are you aren't ready. Anything above and beyond training and basic diet should be there to improve one or both of those elements.

As far as the ethics of AAS use, I'm going to echo Nate. I don't care what you do personally, and I also think it's stupid that said drugs are criminalized to the degree that they are. I don't see anything wrong with limiting access to them like any other prescription drug, but there's no reason to treat AAS in the same category as cocaine, heroin, and other such. It's a waste of law enforcement resources if nothing else; and I can't see any good reason for an adult to be banned from using if they want.

It's a good example of what 20 odd years of propaganda will do to public opinion, in any case.

[BarBrother]

To be honest I think were were are at atm is pretty good. Athletes that are in doped sports know what they are getting themselves into while fans stay largely ignorant to this, this keeps both parties happy. I think the laws in principle are bad but are working to good extent. For those that really really want to get steds they will no matter what but for those that see them as a quick fix option without the hardwork will probably end up not getting them anyway or get sold fakes. I think we are by no means perfrect but I think we all agree there are people that should have the option of juice and thos ethat will only hurt themselves and others if they juice. At the moment I beleive the balance is good enough so that the right peole are getiing it, to a certain extent anyway

[genetic freek]

Re tested feds, level playing feilds etc.

f*ck off! Everyone is pushing the boundry, be it with gear or even the limits in which are set by the governing body. It's not a level playing feild in a tested org coz some1/most are pushing the boundries.

For example: The only way to level the feild for the Olympics is to not test - reason being is that there are so many designer drugs etc that go un detected. Why do the the eastern countries get done for drugs and the chinese don't? Because the Chinese are using drugs that are not knowen of yet or even thought of by the testing body.

[thatwaslight]

What pisses me off is when guys use AAS as a cop out for not wanting to put hours in the gym and training hard or to level the playing field for "bad genetics". IMO you should exhaust your natural capabilities first and then try the gear to see where you can go.

oh brother

[nate225]

My view of the world is perhaps a little different to many. As a brief background I competed under and supported NZPF's anti-drug stance for over a decade. Although no longer competing I still support their stance & the stance of those sporting bodies that utilise WADA testing protocols and anti-drug education sessions (although I admit the information provided can be a little skewed IMHO).

A large number of my friends retain a strong anti-AAS stance, some to the extreme (like one of my best friends & mentors who once told me if I ever chose to use AAS I would not be welcome at his house).

On the other side of the coin I have friends who have used AAS & other PED's extensively (some for over 20 years). Many of this group see testing as a waste of resources and that all sports should be a free for all. They also (as a generalisation) tend to believe that tested sports are filled with AAS users. (As an aside WADA were investigating a tool to measure perceptions of AAS use in sports, you guessed it - those perceiving high levels of use, above norm references, were high risk athletes that should be targetted for testing!).

I try to remain objective about these issues, which I believe is important as many people get emotive about the subject. Therefore I looked at the definition of cheating (thanks Wiki! :grin: ):

Cheating is an act of lying, deception, fraud, trickery, imposture, or imposition. Cheating characteristically is employed to create an unfair advantage, usually in one's own interest, and often at the expense of others,[1] Cheating implies the breaking of rules. The term "cheating" is less applicable to the breaking of laws, as illegal activities are referred to by specific legal terminology such as fraud or corruption. Cheating is a primordial economic act: getting more for less, often used when referring to marital infidelity. A person who is guilty of cheating is generally referred to as a cheat (British English), or a cheater (American English).

I focused on "Cheating implies the breaking of rules", therefore IMHO AAS / PED's use on its on is not cheating by definition. It falls more into the category of morality:

Morality (from the Latin moralities "manner, character, proper behavior") is a sense of behavioral conduct that differentiates intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are good (or right) and bad (or wrong).

So again I suggest AAS / PED's use is a personal choice, however competing in a federation with anti-drug rules when using AAS / PED's is clearly cheating.

Again I'd state that objectivity is important, regardless of who is involved. As a scientist (and one who tries to remain objective! :grin: ) I struggle with people taking an anti-drug stance only to change their position because someone breaking the rules (or indeed the 'moral code' someone is espousing) but is "a good guy" or "a legend in the sport".

A great example is Ed Coan. In my mind he still remains one of, if not the greatest lifters the IPF ever had, however by definition he broke the rules. The guy is a cheat period. So I struggle with guys calling the Russians cheats whenever one of their guys breaks a record, but in the next breath promoting Ed as their favorite lifter.

Other examples include athletes that vocally support drug testing but turn a blind eye to athletes using in their sport for whatever personal reasons.

Let's remain objective people - a cheat is a cheat - but a cheat is not determined by moral values, but by the rules he or she breaks!

Rant over!

Nate

[Grover]

See where you are coming from Nate, agree re sports but in reality as others have said there are always people pushing the envelope/ boundaries.

Look at motorsports even in catorgories that are supposed to be the same car people are tweaking anything and everything.

To boil your argument down further all power lifters should compete raw as the suits perform similar functions to AAS/PEDS

Myself personally one day i may take some just to see what it can do for me, not to compete in anything.

[nate225]

See where you are coming from Nate, agree re sports but in reality as others have said there are always people pushing the envelope/ boundaries.

Look at motorsports even in catorgories that are supposed to be the same car people are tweaking anything and everything.

To boil your argument down further all power lifters should compete raw as the suits perform similar functions to AAS/PEDS

Myself personally one day i may take some just to see what it can do for me, not to compete in anything.

Have to disagree with you Grover - changes to a car in motorsport are governed by rules. Tweak within the rules of a class is okay, over and above that is cheating! (I'm sure the Sports Tribunal has heard a few challenges over what determines the rules in grey areas tho!).

My argument doesn't relate to suits & competing Raw (as much as I dislike suits!). Suits & bench shirts (within certain technical specs) are allowed in different federations so not a case of cheating (maybe morality issues!!! :grin: ). Turning up to a Raw comp and wearing a bench shirt would be similar to my perspective on AAS / PEDs in tested competitions.

To be clarify my view further if a sport has no policy or stance on AAS / PEDs use I have no problem with someone using these substances (pretty much all BBing Feds in NZL are open season now?).

A friend of mine (who is against the use of AAS) once said the following to me, "I don't mind getting beating by someone on gear in Strongman, because I have the option to do the same. I would never do that but its up to me. But if someone beat me in Powerlifting and they were using I'd be pissed off". That statement kind of stuck with me given it came from a lifetime drugfree athlete.

Nate

[Daz69]

I think its widely accepted that if an athlete has abnormally high levels of testosterone, they will excell at sport.... If they are like the majority & confind to moderate levels, then they are resigned a life of sporting mediocrity..

If Testosterone remains the basis for all other derivations of the steroids we know today..... When does testosterone become acceptable?

If an international athlete naturally produces more testosterone than a fellow competitor, that is acceptable....

If the competitor injects testosterone to bring their blood plasma levels so that both are equal, that is unacceptable.....

Gone are the days of the 1st Olympics in 776 BC.. Times & technology have moved on... We now have a greater understanding of how our bodys respond to diet/nutrition & exercise (and drugs)..... We can injest all manner of suplimentation to boost our own testosterone levels, but not add it from an external source...

Most sports are infiltrated by athletes taking performance enhancers already... So banning them hasn't worked..

But would allowing their use make the situation any better....

Some atheletes would pull out, because of a health or ethical perspective...

Others would be forced into a take more to win situation...

Do you allow steroids or all performance enhancers? Do you allow the ones we know about now, or would anything go in the future?

If we had a situation of anything goes, Will the news media & the general public take a greater interest in those on gear.....what happens to the poor old natural athlete..... will we have a situation of who give a fuk...

I suppose morally its unethical, and maybe in some circumstances it can be defined as cheating, but with the life changing sums of money being thrown about in some sports is it worth taking a risk..? We only live once, what would you do for a few million dollars in sponsership..????

:wink: :wink: :wink:

[tinytraps]

A friend of mine (who is against the use of AAS) once said the following to me, "I don't mind getting beating by someone on gear in Strongman, because I have the option to do the same. I would never do that but its up to me. But if someone beat me in Powerlifting and they were using I'd be pissed off". That statement kind of stuck with me given it came from a lifetime drugfree athlete.

Nate

And its a helluv alot more sweeter if you beat someone thats taking!!

[nate225]

I think its widely accepted that if an athlete has abnormally high levels of testosterone, they will excell at sport.... If they are like the majority & confind to moderate levels, then they are resigned a life of sporting mediocrity..

If Testosterone remains the basis for all other derivations of the steroids we know today..... When does testosterone become acceptable?

If an international athlete naturally produces more testosterone than a fellow competitor, that is acceptable....

If the competitor injects testosterone to bring their blood plasma levels so that both are equal, that is unacceptable.....

A friend of mine gave a lecture on this! Does the methodology matter - he related high RBC count due to 'altitude tents' as used by cyclists/endurance athletes as acceptable, whereas EPO / CERA use to achieve the same outcome was not. Very interesting point Daz.

Gone are the days of the 1st Olympics in 776 BC.. Times & technology have moved on... We now have a greater understanding of how our bodys respond to diet/nutrition & exercise (and drugs)..... We can injest all manner of suplimentation to boost our own testosterone levels, but not add it from an external source...

Most sports are infiltrated by athletes taking performance enhancers already... So banning them hasn't worked..

But would allowing their use make the situation any better....

Some atheletes would pull out, because of a health or ethical perspective...

Others would be forced into a take more to win situation...

Do you allow steroids or all performance enhancers? Do you allow the ones we know about now, or would anything go in the future?

If we had a situation of anything goes, Will the news media & the general public take a greater interest in those on gear.....what happens to the poor old natural athlete..... will we have a situation of who give a fuk...

I suppose morally its unethical, and maybe in some circumstances it can be defined as cheating, but with the life changing sums of money being thrown about in some sports is it worth taking a risk..? We only live once, what would you do for a few million dollars in sponsership..????

:wink: :wink: :wink:

Again interesting point - I never considered the career athlete aspect (having been a minority sports participant). An interesting consideration would be if your family's income depended on you regaining a contract when out injured. To take the AAS and recover in time or not, and risk a career ending loss of contract.

It gets murkier! :nod:

[Daz69]

My Girlfriend was a Great Britain International swimmer, and came second in the World Championships to a Chinese competitor by 2/100 sec.... It much later transpired the entire Chinese swimming team had been on performance enhancers..... But too late to count... 2nd in the World doesn't count for much in the UK, we come 2nd or lose at everything.... (generally on penalties to the fukin Germans).....

Imagine, as a World Champion... The news media attention, the sponsership deals... Life changing, or not as it turned out.... :cry:

Maybe I should have introduced her to the contents of my top drawer sooner......

:pfft: :pfft: :pfft:

[tomsammce]

Everybodys natural till they test positive.

[Tonka]

It had to come up sooner or later....... so after a few requests here it is, the great debate on the use of AAS (Anabolic Steroids) & PED's (Performance Enhancing Drugs) in sports & life! :grin:

Oh brother! You got big kahuna's bringing this up Nate but Im sure like many other forums around the world it will make for interesting responses.

The world according to Nate pans out like this (copy n paste from a previous rant!):

I have absolutely no problem with athletes / people choosing to use AAS or PED's. It is entirely a moral decision that they are entitled to make. HOWEVER, when athletes using AAS / PED's choose to enter a tested federation they are cheating 'clean' athletes from having the opportunity to compete on a level playing field. There are plenty of options for users, they shouldn't have to even go near tested comps - and if they do, they do so at their own peril.

Using AAS / PED's = a moral decision / personal choice

Competing in a tested federation when using AAS / PED's = CHEATING

With you 100%!

What is your view of the situation?

Quite simple for me, I choose to be 100% drugfree because its a personal/moral decision regardless of what sport I'd participate in whether it adhered to or not adhered to drug testing. My chosen sport is drug tested and (hopefully) drugfree. For us to join the NZPF we must sign a contract with NZdrugfree (the NZ WADA affiliate) declaring our anti-drug stance and agreement to be added to the national drugtesting programe. This should be alarm bells for those that choose not to be drug free and want to lift in the sport nationally/internationally but unfortuately, this is not enough and they run the risk of testing positive adding a black mark to the nation and the sport. I have full confidence in our national drug testing program but I do question the application (or lack of) of WADA's stringent tessting procedures in other countries.

Are AAS wonder drugs that the world should embrace?

The world has been embracing these drugs IMHO for many years now, its just the drug labs are steps ahead of the drug testing labs.

Are they a scourge on society, perhaps a gateway drug?

I know very little on this subject so choose not to comment.

Maybe in certain circumstances they're okay, but not in sports?

If for medical reasons and if prescribed by a qualified physician then yes, but in many sports where theyre "not okay" or should I say " not allowed" then absolutely NO!! Rules are set up for as reason, to establish structure, order, fairplay and safety. These days it appears that rules are just there to be broken...hopefully without being caught.

[nate225]

A friend of mine (who is against the use of AAS) once said the following to me, "I don't mind getting beating by someone on gear in Strongman, because I have the option to do the same. I would never do that but its up to me. But if someone beat me in Powerlifting and they were using I'd be pissed off". That statement kind of stuck with me given it came from a lifetime drugfree athlete.

Nate

And its a helluv alot more sweeter if you beat someone thats taking!!

Agreed, but it don't always go that way.....

Wikipedia states Coan won the IPF World Championships in 1996.

I'm sure Derek didn't enjoy standing on the second place dias and getting the silver medal in 1996 only to have it upgraded to gold further down the track. Not quite the same celebration for the win eh? :?

[nate225]

It had to come up sooner or later....... so after a few requests here it is, the great debate on the use of AAS (Anabolic Steroids) & PED's (Performance Enhancing Drugs) in sports & life! :grin:

Oh brother! You got big kahuna's bringing this up Nate but Im sure like many other forums around the world it will make for interesting responses.

The world according to Nate pans out like this (copy n paste from a previous rant!):

I have absolutely no problem with athletes / people choosing to use AAS or PED's. It is entirely a moral decision that they are entitled to make. HOWEVER, when athletes using AAS / PED's choose to enter a tested federation they are cheating 'clean' athletes from having the opportunity to compete on a level playing field. There are plenty of options for users, they shouldn't have to even go near tested comps - and if they do, they do so at their own peril.

Using AAS / PED's = a moral decision / personal choice

Competing in a tested federation when using AAS / PED's = CHEATING

With you 100%!

What is your view of the situation?

Quite simple for me, I choose to be 100% drugfree because its a personal/moral decision regardless of what sport I'd participate in whether it adhered to or not adhered to drug testing. My chosen sport is drug tested and (hopefully) drugfree. For us to join the NZPF we must sign a contract with NZdrugfree (the NZ WADA affiliate) declaring our anti-drug stance and agreement to be added to the national drugtesting programe. This should be alarm bells for those that choose not to be drug free and want to lift in the sport nationally/internationally but unfortuately, this is not enough and they run the risk of testing positive adding a black mark to the nation and the sport. I have full confidence in our national drug testing program but I do question the application (or lack of) of WADA's stringent tessting procedures in other countries.

Are AAS wonder drugs that the world should embrace?

The world has been embracing these drugs IMHO for many years now, its just the drug labs are steps ahead of the drug testing labs.

Are they a scourge on society, perhaps a gateway drug?

I know very little on this subject so choose not to comment.

Maybe in certain circumstances they're okay, but not in sports?

If for medical reasons and if prescribed by a qualified physician then yes, but in many sports where theyre "not okay" or should I say " not allowed" then absolutely NO!! Rules are set up for as reason, to establish structure, order, fairplay and safety. These days it appears that rules are just there to be broken...hopefully without being caught.

Well stated Tonka. We obviously share one thing in common, now if only I could bench like you! :grin:

That last paragraph was thought provoking (and as usual raised more questions!).