SQUATS ATG or Parallel?

[PeterDolan]

Nope, haven't heard of them to be completely honest. Don't take me for saying they have chicken legs but once you drop their body fat down and remove the water you'll see that their development isn't that great. PLers carry a shit load of body fat, then again I haven't seen these dudes you've mentioned so can't comment on them

[tinytraps]

Nope, haven't heard of them to be completely honest. Don't take me for saying they have chicken legs but once you drop their body fat down and remove the water you'll see that their development isn't that great. PLers carry a shit load of body fat, then again I haven't seen these dudes you've mentioned so can't comment on them

Common misconception, seems you can only be a pler these days if your a 140kg tub of lard :? Considering that these men are natural I think there development is more impressive IMHO I dont think squatting 380kg would make you have small undeveloped legs.

[nate225]

Nope, haven't heard of them to be completely honest. Don't take me for saying they have chicken legs but once you drop their body fat down and remove the water you'll see that their development isn't that great. PLers carry a shit load of body fat, then again I haven't seen these dudes you've mentioned so can't comment on them

The sort of generic statement I thought we'd moved past long ago!

Matt Kroc'

Konstantin Konstantinov

[ThePman]

A lot of people mistake the appearance of muscularity (which is mainly low body fat) with size/bulk. Which is why you get people saying is massive.

Top bodybuilders are big guys for sure but the leanness makes them look all the more bigger. A big PL may not sport that kind of definition (though some do) but it doesn't make them smaller.

[PeterDolan]

Every powerlifter I've met has been a tub of lard haha (I've got Clive Madge training at my gym, though his hay day is gone). I understand the whole, being lean and creating the illusion but at the same time powerlifters generally don't train in the rep ranges for the mass and also don't train for the aesthetic side of things e.g outer sweep, VMO etc. I go back to my example of Stan Efferding, lots of bulk off season, terrible contest time. Strong men on the other hand have amazing legs, especially given the size of their waists would retract from the "illusion" of muscularity. Big ups to those guys being natural.

[ThePman]

Rep range for mass? So if you add 100kg to your squat by doing triples, you won't grow because it's the wrong rep range?

I really haven't ever bought the idea that the legs will build different aesthetic either. Maybe (maybe) in the top guys in matters, but that's really hair splitting. You could make the case for something like shoulders, which actually articulate differently, but really? Take Guy A with huge legs and Guy B with huge legs. The differences in the muscular development are going to be genetic more than due to training.

[PeterDolan]

You will grow some but not to the same extent, those low rep ranges are much more neuromuscular as opposed to muscular.

While genetics play a massive part in muscle shape, without the correct training, nutrition etc. you'll never reach that potential.

This has gotten way off ATG squats haha

[Tonka]

Nope, haven't heard of them to be completely honest. Don't take me for saying they have chicken legs but once you drop their body fat down and remove the water you'll see that their development isn't that great. PLers carry a shit load of body fat, then again I haven't seen these dudes you've mentioned so can't comment on them

I disagree PD, you're generalizing on a topic that has already been discussed on many other forums. I agree that SHW's (super heavy weights) and some 125's tend to not worry too much about trying to stay lean but baring Lance and Neil from the list I mentioned earlier, all the other lifters diet to stay within their weight class. I'd say that all these guys would compete at a BF% of around 11-16. That would be off season percentages for the most BB'ers in NZ.

The perception of powerlifting with many is seeing who is the biggest and strongest and these names are the first to come up - Andy Bolten, Ryan Kennelly, Donnie Thompson. They have size as well as immense strength but yeah, they are carrying 20+BF% (well Kennelly may be the exception). But consider the lighter divisions...not all are telly tubby's.

[Tonka]

This has gotten way off ATG squats haha

I agree...thread hijack!

[PeterDolan]

Got nothing wrong with PLers BF%, they need it for the most part to support the joints, I'm just say that their leg development doesn't rival the worlds top bodybuilders.

Two different sports with two different goals

[Tonka]

Got nothing wrong with PLers BF%....

Yeah but you keep refering to them as "tubs of lard" and they carry a "shitload of bodyfat"??!!?? Why the hostility? Did you recently get your butt smoked in the gym by a PLer? :pfft: As I mentioned earlier there are PLers here in NZ that would have many local BB'ers wishing they had their kind of leg development - cutting them back for the stage and shaping them up (different training methods) would add more to their appearance too. Maybe not like a pro-bodybuilder but when those guys are stripped of their secret potions and special candy, they would have average looking sticks as well.

[PeterDolan]

Why the hostility?

None at all dude, I'm sorry I come across that way. Yeah BBers are on steroids but are you naive enough to believe the top PLers aren't aswel, not saying everyone of them is but then again, look at the natural bodybuilders too.

As to getting my butt smoked by a powerlifter? Not likely dude haha maybe by some of the guys in your crew but you'd be hard pressed to find someone my weight in NZ that could hang with me.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this subject I think?

[Tonka]

All good PD, I too will agree to disagree as has been the case on this subject many a time. If you are ever free for time (BBing) wise, you should do a PL comp. I saw your stats and must admit they are impressive. We could always do with abilities like yours in our sport.

Good luck mate and stay strong

[PeterDolan]

I'm gonna be cycling my training after my comp to be training with 3's for a week 5-8's the next and more BB type stuff the next two weeks cause I need to stay strong in case I get motivated and go back to wrestling. My down fall is my itty bitty hands have a hard time gripping the bar for deads so would be lucky to get 160 without straps.

Also I think I've heard speak of you being a supplier of equipment? If so, do you do bands?

[Tonka]

No I dont PD but contact GetStrength NZ as they are the Iron Woody Band distributors in NZ. They are excellent bands and used with much success here and in Australia. The GetStrength website is still active and they are stocked. They will be able to sort you out.

Hey I did some bench work with a past NZ wrestling champ who is looking to do some PLing at the moment - David McBeth. Very strong lifter at 55-60kg. Hes a walking powerbase is he!!! Nice fella too. Do you know him?

[PeterDolan]

Awesome, I've heard bands are the way to go so think they'll be useful in increasing my strength

Nup but I only started last year, is he a older dude? My best mate might know him and my coaches definitely will. Good to hear he is strong, most NZ wrestlers are weak, in saying that it isn't the most critical part, it helps though.

[TonganTerror]

Why the hostility?

None at all dude, I'm sorry I come across that way. Yeah BBers are on steroids but are you naive enough to believe the top PLers aren't aswel, not saying everyone of them is but then again, look at the natural bodybuilders too.

As to getting my butt smoked by a powerlifter? Not likely dude haha maybe by some of the guys in your crew but you'd be hard pressed to find someone my weight in NZ that could hang with me.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this subject I think?

Ah a true BBer :pfft:

Normally I love the confidence but peter you take arrogance to a new level, im sending you a free roof mirror I no longer require so you can admire yourself even when you are asleep :wink:

[ohjoshua]

Awesome, I've heard bands are the way to go so think they'll be useful in increasing my strength

Nup but I only started last year, is he a older dude? My best mate might know him and my coaches definitely will. Good to hear he is strong, most NZ wrestlers are weak, in saying that it isn't the most critical part, it helps though.

Sam Belkin from my gym is a wrestler who does some weights 95kg and 235kg Deadlift. He is going to the coming common wealth games... pitty he is weak because he is a nz wreslter.

[PeterDolan]

Why the hostility?

None at all dude, I'm sorry I come across that way. Yeah BBers are on steroids but are you naive enough to believe the top PLers aren't aswel, not saying everyone of them is but then again, look at the natural bodybuilders too.

As to getting my butt smoked by a powerlifter? Not likely dude haha maybe by some of the guys in your crew but you'd be hard pressed to find someone my weight in NZ that could hang with me.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this subject I think?

Ah a true BBer :pfft:

Normally I love the confidence but peter you take arrogance to a new level, im sending you a free roof mirror I no longer require so you can admire yourself even when you are asleep :wink:

It does sound arrogant haha it isn't supposed to be, just haven't found anyone my size that can hang with me that's all, I know there are powerlifters out there that'd destroy me in the gym, just hard to find them in this country

Awesome, I've heard bands are the way to go so think they'll be useful in increasing my strength

Nup but I only started last year, is he a older dude? My best mate might know him and my coaches definitely will. Good to hear he is strong, most NZ wrestlers are weak, in saying that it isn't the most critical part, it helps though.

Sam Belkin from my gym is a wrestler who does some weights 95kg and 235kg Deadlift. He is going to the coming common wealth games... pitty he is weak because he is a nz wreslter.

Sam Belkin? I don't think we are sending any wrestlers to the Commonwealth Games because they all got killed at the Commonwealth Cup and Oceania. Like I said also, MOST of them are weak, not all of them

[PeterDolan]

Gonna have to start proof reading my posts haha

[PeterDolan]

I stand corrected, Sam is going but I was right and he also got beaten by another kiwi, Aaron Quinlan, so perhaps his physical prowess got him selected. Good luck to him I say

[fudoc5]

sorry to bring up an old topic folks,but i came across something the other day which made me wonder a little. i've been hearing PT's recomending teaching people to squat without their knees going further than their toes....huh? is it to avoid stressing the knee or something along those lines? I tried that on the squat, and found that i can't go as low (just short of parallel) with my usual heaviest weight (160kgs not including bb x 3reps). but if i allow my knees to go a little further than my feet,i can get my ATG sweet and come back up without hurting my knees.be good to hear your opinions,cheers,nick

[tinytraps]

I think it has something to do with loading the patella tendon.

When most people in the gym squat they break at the knees first getting the exagerated forward knees which IMO is bad.

However if your sitting back into the squat and you get a bit of drift its ok.

Lately ive been squatting hibar a2g and my knees end up coming forward a fair bit and im yet to have any knee pain. The fact im using a heeled shoe may also have a role to play

[ThePman]

sorry to bring up an old topic folks,but i came across something the other day which made me wonder a little. i've been hearing PT's recomending teaching people to squat without their knees going further than their toes....huh?

If you want something besides "most PTs are uninformed and don't learn anything besides what their uninformed instructors told them", this comes from physiotherapy recommendations, which in turn come from some research that indicated the highest shearing stresses on the knee happened at parallel. By letting the knees travel over the toes, you'd only exaggerate the knee stress.

The problem is that this isn't really reflective of what happens during a real squat. The way most people want to do the movement, they wind up making it a "knee" exercise, coming up on their toes and getting little to no hamstring and glute involvement. If you do that and knees come over toes, something will probably blow.

If you're actually squatting, this won't happen. But physiotherapy likes to be overly cautious, not to mention making questionable use of questionably applicable research, and the organizations that turn out trainers tend to be heavily physio-influenced, so...

is it to avoid stressing the knee or something along those lines? I tried that on the squat, and found that i can't go as low (just short of parallel) with my usual heaviest weight (160kgs not including bb x 3reps). but if i allow my knees to go a little further than my feet,i can get my ATG sweet and come back up without hurting my knees.be good to hear your opinions,cheers,nick

This is because anyone that's ever done a squat realizes that the stress comes from forcing the body out of a natural movement pattern and trying to brake a heavy weight in the knee's weakest position.

There's also the vast number of gym lifters that like to show off with high squats of 3+ plates, so this gives them an excuse

[PeterDolan]

Tom Platz squatted like this and had amazing quad development, the best of his era and before him.

Squat how ever feels comfortable (with in reason) but look at why you may be squatting incorrectly and if possible correct it