close vs wide stance squat clip

[startinfromscratch]

took the opportunity up at coast to take 2 clips for comparison, with intention of posting it up here so that the more knowledgable peeps can verify my own and steaks observations.

*with close stance, i get heaps of knee travel. clip shows this majorly.

*wide stance is much better in terms of knee travel, but i cant quite get as low, but do get low enough......

*in either case, if you watch my lower back at the very bottom of the move, it does 'tuck under' slightly. its not too bad, and ive noticed it on plenty of others, does this mean tight hammies?

*wide stance i feel works back more, but this is natural yes?

reps for feedback

[runveerun]

In terms of PLing wider stance is better, less distance to travel, you could go even wider by the looks of the video....

[ThePman]

Unless you're planning to lift in gear, wide stance isn't really the best idea IMO and IME. The knee-travel thing is a non-issue, and I'm not sure why it's out there as an issue to most people. If you're squatting with normal mechanics, your knees are going to come over your toes. It's not really a flaw when that happens.

The only people you see using the really wide stance are the guys wearing multiple layers of gear in the US feds. Some of the larger single-ply guys can pull it off too, but that's for other reasons (big stable midsection). The best raw and single-ply squatters have a narrower stance.

For reference, my best squats have been done w/ narrower stances like so:

And I tore my left adductor mucking around w/ the wide stance, for what that's worth.

[ThePman]

Also since my piddling squat may not be compelling:

Siders

Karwoski

Though in fairness, Coan did squat kinda wide. Wade Hooper and some of the Russians do as well.

IMO the point is more that narrow-stance is not the enemy and for many folks it may be better than this meme that wide = a must for powerlifting.

[startinfromscratch]

appreciate the replies pman. i should specify that wide isnt actually that wide, its just 'wider'. for me (and the vid) close=shoulder width, wide=just outside shoulder, pointed out a little.

good example vids too, reps

[Sportsgirl]

I personally prefer squatting with quite a close stance. I feel much much stronger in this position and much more stable. I'm all over the place with a wide stance and am not as strong.

[tinytraps]

Not that I can add much but I went through a stage when i would squat quite wide, I found that I got shit sore hips( I was doing a lot of sumo at the time too). When I switched to a narrower stance I found I got a little more pop out of the hole.

Dude I got that hip tuck s#*t too and it annoys me to death. Two things im putting it down to is lack of flexibility and not being able to keep tight through the upper lower back.

[runveerun]

I'm quite the opposite, I prefer slightly wider stance I find I can get down into the squat alot easier and quicker and I am more stable. Narrower stance was more taxing on my knees.

[ThePman]

Dude I got that hip tuck s#*t too and it annoys me to death. Two things im putting it down to is lack of flexibility and not being able to keep tight through the upper lower back.

Forgot to answer this bit earlier

The hip-tuck thing is almost always tight hams and/or hips. If the hammies can't elongate or the hips are stiff (or both), then there's not much else that can happen but for the low-back to round under.

Best things to correct it

* Stretch the hip flexors w/ lunge stretches

* Stretch the piriformis muscles

* Stretch the hams (I prefer doing this one with a band)

* Foam roll the hell out of all three (and do the IT band for good measure) before you stretch them and again after.

If these are problem areas, I'd make sure to hit them both in the warmup and warmdown every time you're in the gym. Eventually things will loosen up and the hip-tucking will improve.

[ThePman]

I personally prefer squatting with quite a close stance. I feel much much stronger in this position and much more stable. I'm all over the place with a wide stance and am not as strong.

:pfft:

[Elite121]

Dude I got that hip tuck s#*t too and it annoys me to death. Two things im putting it down to is lack of flexibility and not being able to keep tight through the upper lower back.

Forgot to answer this bit earlier

The hip-tuck thing is almost always tight hams and/or hips. If the hammies can't elongate or the hips are stiff (or both), then there's not much else that can happen but for the low-back to round under.

Best things to correct it

* Stretch the hip flexors w/ lunge stretches

* Stretch the piriformis muscles

* Stretch the hams (I prefer doing this one with a band)

* Foam roll the hell out of all three (and do the IT band for good measure) before you stretch them and again after.

If these are problem areas, I'd make sure to hit them both in the warmup and warmdown every time you're in the gym. Eventually things will loosen up and the hip-tucking will improve.

Good stuff P-man I agree with everything you've said, Id also look at foam rolling the adductor's since magnus extends the hip. Also if someones lower back rounds out on the squat they need to be assessed to ascertain whether its a mobility or stability issue.The FMS is a good place to start with this one.Then to add to this the likes of Stuart Mcgill states that some people do not have hips that are formed to allow a deep squat correctly.

[Pseudonym]

The knee-travel thing is a non-issue, and I'm not sure why it's out there as an issue to most people. If you're squatting with normal mechanics, your knees are going to come over your toes. It's not really a flaw when that happens.

I'm delighted to hear you say that, Pman, because I constantly hear PT's telling their clients that whatever they do, their knees MUST NOT go past their toes. And I think, "Eh? Why?" And wonder if I'm doing it wrong. Meanwhile, their clients are squatting with the knees caving inwards, and this goes completely uncorrected. :doh:

So just to clarify, there's no disaster waiting to happen if your knees ever come past your toes?

[ThePman]

So just to clarify, there's no disaster waiting to happen if your knees ever come past your toes?

We might have had some trouble as a species if knees couldn't travel forwards

The meme has come out of sketchy speculation from some overly-cautious physiotherapy programs, and of course the Westside/multi-ply squat form which is...good at taking advantage of gear, but not really reflective of normal leverages.

Think about how most gym-squats are done. Watch where people carry the bar on their backs, and where the pressure is on their feet. Bar's always right up on the neck, and they're driving through their toes. The entire center of mass it pitched forwards and it becomes a "knee" lift instead of a "hip" lift. If you're doing that kind of "squat", then yes knees over toes is going to be a huge strain simply due to lack of hamstring contraction to stabilize the joint.

It just happens that physiotherapy considers that to be a "squat", so of course they're telling people that knees over toes = bad. If you "squat" heavy enough with that approach, you certainly will wreck your knees. The caveat is that I don't consider that a squat, so take that as you will :wink:

Watch any Olympic weightlifter squat, or even Siders, Capt Kirk or any number of other narrow-stance squatters, and you'll see knees moving over toes. It's perfectly normal with correct form.

[Elite121]

What happens when we walk up a flight of stairs...ooops thats right out toes go over our knees...better be very careful next time.

[nate225]

So just to clarify, there's no disaster waiting to happen if your knees ever come past your toes?

We might have had some trouble as a species if knees couldn't travel forwards

The meme has come out of sketchy speculation from some overly-cautious physiotherapy programs, and of course the Westside/multi-ply squat form which is...good at taking advantage of gear, but not really reflective of normal leverages.

Think about how most gym-squats are done. Watch where people carry the bar on their backs, and where the pressure is on their feet. Bar's always right up on the neck, and they're driving through their toes. The entire center of mass it pitched forwards and it becomes a "knee" lift instead of a "hip" lift. If you're doing that kind of "squat", then yes knees over toes is going to be a huge strain simply due to lack of hamstring contraction to stabilize the joint.

It just happens that physiotherapy considers that to be a "squat", so of course they're telling people that knees over toes = bad. If you "squat" heavy enough with that approach, you certainly will wreck your knees. The caveat is that I don't consider that a squat, so take that as you will :wink:

Watch any Olympic weightlifter squat, or even Siders, Capt Kirk or any number of other narrow-stance squatters, and you'll see knees moving over toes. It's perfectly normal with correct form.

Agree with most of what you're saying but having had a quad tendon tear as I fell out of the groove on front squats (with a lot of anterior drift involved), and having had a friend do the same on back squats (with a bilateral complete rupture of both patella tendons, taking a few bits of bone with them! :grin: ), I'm somewhat loathe to agree that knees travelling over toes should be encouraged as normal when squatting (particularly PLing style). :wink:

Oly lifters certainly do this, but I'd suggest this is safe as they have usually trained to do so from a relatively young age (hence no flexibility issues etc) and keep the bar placement high on the back. Your thoughts Matt?

Having recently begun doing some Oly stuff (if you can call my form that!) I've noticed it flares the hell out of my tendonitis in the knees - I assume from the pronounce anterior drift?

[TonganTerror]

I personally prefer squatting with quite a close stance. I feel much much stronger in this position and much more stable. I'm all over the place with a wide stance and am not as strong.

:pfft:

VERY NICE SQUAT THERE!!!!!

[ohjoshua]

toddlers and asains are good full squaters...

the baby in pic has knees behind toes

[steak]

the squat being a "sitting back" motion done correctly should take care of a lot of knee travel. spreading the knees on the decent also will allow the lifter to fit further "back" in the hole.