High bar or Low bar?

[nate225]

From the PMan, a very good topic and one worth considering if your DL has stalled out:

http://www.ampedtraining.com/posts/

With the shift to wide stance / low bar I noticed zero progress in my DL (which actually went backwards to a point!) while I put nearly 50kg on my squat!!! Anyway remedied now but a lot of what Pman comments on applied.

The highbar / narrow "Oly" Squat is a lot more transferable to DL (similar to a reverse hack squat perhaps) and certainly IMHO allows for the quad drive through heels that a good conventional DL requires.

For practical purposes I still squat wide but throw in highbars (and a favorite Giant Camber high bars) for good measure.

Nate

[rose]

True. I think that's why I like the Westside Barbell approach, cycling max effort exercises means you get to "mix it up" :pfft:

[nate225]

True. I think that's why I like the Westside Barbell approach, cycling max effort exercises means you get to "mix it up" :pfft:

Agreed.

That said, any approach could also throw in narrow HB as assistance even if they only trained LB wide stance as their main exercise.

[rose]

Yep. After reading that article and thinking about it, I've always had a natural tendency to do narrow HB when not box squatting (I cycle box squatting with other styles of squats). But my reasons are not as deep and meaningful as Pman's or yours. You're both technical and I'm just a pleb :grin:

I think my squat stance was mostly borne of something Maria Brightwater-Wharf told me last year. It's something that made sense and was also applicable, so I stuck with it. Purposely flouting WSB rules etc. I never was good at doing what I'm told :shifty:

[drizzt]

Good article :nod: :

Fred Hatfield, AKA “Dr. Squat” who is a respected authority on strength training, has written a couple of very good books on the subject, and who competed at a fairly high level in both gymnastics and OL before achieving a 1008lb squat at 44 years of age and I believe around 255lbs, has argued extensively that not only should the HB squat be used EXCLUSIVELY for the training of athletes, but its qualities of carry over are such that even POWERLIFTERS who are actually competing with a low bar, bent over, only to parallel and sometimes wide stance squat, should in fact do HB, Olympic style squats for much of the off season. In a rough quote of his words, HB squats build strength, LB squats demonstrate it.

I found the part on Athletes particularly interesting. Food for thought, especially for me now while I'm working on my form after injury :think:

[Sportsgirl]

I reckon I do a weird combination: low bar, but with a narrow stance. It means I lean real far forward in my squat (then again I am 5'8"). I can't squat with a wider stance because I feel very unstable and start pulling muscles. Same reason why I don't DL sumo - feels way too unstable.

[nate225]

I reckon I do a weird combination: low bar, but with a narrow stance. It means I lean real far forward in my squat (then again I am 5'8"). I can't squat with a wider stance because I feel very unstable and start pulling muscles. Same reason why I don't DL sumo - feels way too unstable.

A wide stance takes time to transition into, most take about 3 months or so. That said an ultrawide stance take very strong hips & is really only useful if you want to lift in a federation with a monolift - setting up from a traditional rack is a nightmare, and in fact the NZPF racks restrict the width you can actually go. Depth is often an issue with this stance.

A lot using the ultrawide train exclusively in gear to protect from hip injuries (read: gearwhores! :grin: ).

A wider stance is often beneficial in the long run IMHO but does take time to get right.

Nate

[Sportsgirl]

A wide stance takes time to transition into, most take about 3 months or so. That said an ultrawide stance take very strong hips & is really only useful if you want to lift in a federation with a monolift - setting up from a traditional rack is a nightmare, and in fact the NZPF racks restrict the width you can actually go. Depth is often an issue with this stance.

A lot using the ultrawide train exclusively in gear to protect from hip injuries (read: gearwhores! :grin: ).

A wider stance is often beneficial in the long run IMHO but does take time to get right.

Nate

I haven't started to use gear yet. Do you need to take a wider stance so that it "works"? I have tried to gradually go wider in the past but just ended up back with a narrow stance. It just feels so much more comfortable. I also think it has something to do with my right leg being a little munted. Doing a one legged squat on my right leg, my knee caves in considerably. I have not been able to correct it with specific exercises.

[nate225]

A wide stance takes time to transition into, most take about 3 months or so. That said an ultrawide stance take very strong hips & is really only useful if you want to lift in a federation with a monolift - setting up from a traditional rack is a nightmare, and in fact the NZPF racks restrict the width you can actually go. Depth is often an issue with this stance.

A lot using the ultrawide train exclusively in gear to protect from hip injuries (read: gearwhores! :grin: ).

A wider stance is often beneficial in the long run IMHO but does take time to get right.

Nate

I haven't started to use gear yet. Do you need to take a wider stance so that it "works"? I have tried to gradually go wider in the past but just ended up back with a narrow stance. It just feels so much more comfortable. I also think it has something to do with my right leg being a little munted. Doing a one legged squat on my right leg, my knee caves in considerably. I have not been able to correct it with specific exercises.

You can actually buy squat suits (and sumo DL suits) that are made to suit wide stances (as you can in terms of bench shirts with angled sleeves etc to suit different styles of benching).

I definately wouldn't say suits work less for narrow squatters (although the loading on the suit would be different). I think its more a case of cutting down range of motion with a wide stance and being able to wear a tighter suit (that wouldn't reach depth in a narrow stance).

Tonka may be able to add a little here? His bro will have some first hand experience with real wide stance squatters that may be of interest in this discussion?

[ThePman]

Most of the really-wide stance guys are also in the multi-ply feds where they've got on briefs along with at least a double-ply suit. Some of the more ridiculous ones will have things like triple-ply canvas suits and double-ply briefs.

Most guys in IPF-affiliated PLing won't be anywhere near that wide, because single-ply isn't too compatible with it. Also you actually have to go to legal depth under IPF rules.

[startinfromscratch]

i prefer ulta-high bar, usually i balance it on top of my head.

its more aerodynamic, though you may need to shave your eyebrows to get the full benefits...

[Pilsner]

Good article :nod: :

Fred Hatfield, AKA “Dr. Squat” who is a respected authority on strength training, has written a couple of very good books on the subject, and who competed at a fairly high level in both gymnastics and OL before achieving a 1008lb squat at 44 years of age and I believe around 255lbs, has argued extensively that not only should the HB squat be used EXCLUSIVELY for the training of athletes, but its qualities of carry over are such that even POWERLIFTERS who are actually competing with a low bar, bent over, only to parallel and sometimes wide stance squat, should in fact do HB, Olympic style squats for much of the off season. In a rough quote of his words, HB squats build strength, LB squats demonstrate it.

I found the part on Athletes particularly interesting. Food for thought, especially for me now while I'm working on my form after injury :think:

There are a few differing opinions on Hatfields advice (which was made in the 80's). Many strength coaches such as L Simmons and and Rippletoe point to the fact the powerlifting style squat (I don't mean ultrawide squat but low bar, medium to wide stance etc) builds much more functional athletic muscle than high bar squat as the major muscles used for running, jumping etc are the hips/ hamstring / glutes not the weaker show pony quads which are developed more by a high bar.

[Tonka]

I haven't started to use gear yet. Do you need to take a wider stance so that it "works"? I have tried to gradually go wider in the past but just ended up back with a narrow stance. It just feels so much more comfortable. I also think it has something to do with my right leg being a little munted. Doing a one legged squat on my right leg, my knee caves in considerably. I have not been able to correct it with specific exercises.

SG, most of us IPF lifters have a much closer stance when we lift RAW as opposed to when wearing a squat suit. I widen my stance by an extra 20cm when in briefs/squat suit. Its much like a shirt, many people bench with a closer grip and only when the shirt is on they have the confidence to go wider.

I have yet to see anyone in the NZPF (or in the Oceania region - IPF affiliates) squat wide enough to justify ordering a wide stance squat suit. Its not so bad for the "rogue" fed guys who lift out of a monolift because they can setup easily but seeing guys walk big weight out then fire their legs out for a wide stance squat...it doesnt look good. I advise most lifters here to stick with the regular stance suits. However, sumo deadlift suits are different. They are wide enough to get benefit from the suit.

[drizzt]

There are a few differing opinions on Hatfields advice (which was made in the 80's). Many strength coaches such as L Simmons and and Rippletoe point to the fact the powerlifting style squat (I don't mean ultrawide squat but low bar, medium to wide stance etc) builds much more functional athletic muscle than high bar squat as the major muscles used for running, jumping etc are the hips/ hamstring / glutes not the weaker show pony quads which are developed more by a high bar.

Yeah, I saw there was a bit of a note on that further down the page I have read Rip's thoughts on it, a lot of what I thought was interesting was the part in transfer from High-bar to Low-bar, but not vice versa.

Not saying I'm necessarily a convert after just reading the one article (I squat low-bar medium-wide ish stance), but it could be something I may look at implementing on one of my three squat sessions per week

[ThePman]

meh, if I had a point in writing that, it was not to get caught up on either style as being more right than wrong.

For my own purposes right now, the closer-stance method is probably better. That's not to say that a wider stance is useless. I think both have places in a program honestly.

I just liked Glenn's comments because it matches up with what I'd found. And Glenn's strong as a bull on top of that.

[SoaringSwine]

I've read that a lot of the multiply guys now use high bar! A couple reasons for this:

1) When the weight gets as high as it does with multiply, low bar puts a low of stress on the elbows and it's easier to hold on the back in general.

2) The super wide stances mean that they are super upright, which fits well with using a high bar position.

Personally I don't use high bar position at all, but I do utilise other exercises for the same reason. Front squats and SSB squats have similar qualities to high bar squats, more quads, more upright etc. I've found they've both helped my deadlift a lot.

[TonganTerror]

drizzt three squat sessions a week how do you manage that????I train legs on a wed and still can only just walk on saturday most weeks lol dont mention friday the two day burn effect im office bound most fridays!

[drizzt]

drizzt three squat sessions a week how do you manage that????I train legs on a wed and still can only just walk on saturday most weeks lol dont mention friday the two day burn effect im office bound most fridays!

Your body adapts... and not all 3 are heavy sessions. There are quite a few people on the site squatting 2-3x per week, and I believe there are a couple of people doing more than 3?

[ThePman]

I squat twice and deadlift twice per week.

[Pilsner]

Most top weightlifters squat much more than that (some squat everyday) and have length strength and size that most body builders would die for. Training though is well within capacity and not to failure. Depends a bit on structure. The short backed people need to squat with less volume as the back gets over taxed. Having said that shorted back people squat through a greater range of motion and hence do more work with every rep.

Frequency depends on other items too such as recovery ability, lifestyle, age etc. I only squat and deadlift once per now - though thats not completely out of choice but if I did twice a week the second would be a lighter workout.