My diet

[Daz69]

No I don't think you understood at all. What matters is that you get enough protein for your needs on any given day, and preferably that you keep amino acid levels high. How much you get at any one meal is pretty much the least important thing to worry about.

I do understand that your body finds protein difficult to digest, & only so much (amount dependent on individual requirements) is needed to build muscle, when this limit has been reached for each meal, to consume anymore is pointless.. You are wasting money & overworking your liver unnecessarily..

Why keep banging in what wont be used for its intended purpose..??

:?

[ThePman]

Okay. Let's use a thought experiment.

I think most people that are lifting hard never need less than 1g per lb of bodyweight. Women may be able to get away with a little less, same for people not trying to add muscle, etc etc, but 1g/lb is a good rule of thumb. Somebody that's dieting may wind up needing more protein, since protein turnover is much higher in a calorie deficit, so say a range of 1-1.25g per lb, maybe even as high as 1.5g/lb. Unless chemical enhancement comes into the picture, more than that probably will be "wasted" (converted into glucose in the liver).

So a 100kg man at 1g/lb would be getting 220g per day. In six meals, that's ~36g per meal, or ~73g in three meals.

At 1.5g/lb, he'd be getting 330g. Break that up into six meals, and that's 55g per meal. If he eats three meals, that's 110g per meal.

What I'm saying is that once the daily protein amount is set, the distribution doesn't matter. If the 100kg fella is getting 330g of protein a day, it doesn't matter if he eats smaller meals spaced out every 2-3 hours, or three big meals spaced out over the day, or even if he concentrates them into eight hours. As long as he gets that 330g of protein, the timing doesn't matter.

Your body doesn't work like Mario picking up the mushroom. The net effect averaged out over a day is what matters, not the effects of a single meal.

[Daz69]

Okay. Let's use a thought experiment.

I think most people that are lifting hard never need less than 1g per lb of bodyweight. Women may be able to get away with a little less, same for people not trying to add muscle, etc etc, but 1g/lb is a good rule of thumb. Somebody that's dieting may wind up needing more protein, since protein turnover is much higher in a calorie deficit, so say a range of 1-1.25g per lb, maybe even as high as 1.5g/lb. Unless chemical enhancement comes into the picture, more than that probably will be "wasted" (converted into glucose in the liver).

So a 100kg man at 1g/lb would be getting 220g per day. In six meals, that's ~36g per meal, or ~73g in three meals.

At 1.5g/lb, he'd be getting 330g. Break that up into six meals, and that's 55g per meal. If he eats three meals, that's 110g per meal.

What I'm saying is that once the daily protein amount is set, the distribution doesn't matter. If the 100kg fella is getting 330g of protein a day, it doesn't matter if he eats smaller meals spaced out every 2-3 hours, or three big meals spaced out over the day, or even if he concentrates them into eight hours. As long as he gets that 330g of protein, the timing doesn't matter.

Your body doesn't work like Mario picking up the mushroom. The net effect averaged out over a day is what matters, not the effects of a single meal.

330g protein a day seems a huge amount for Bobs particular circumstances... (remember he is getting adequate carbs & fats)....

As I gave the advice to Bob, I'll use his statistics....

He was 83.1kg on 12th August.. Or 182lbs

@ 1g/lb = 182g protein

@ 1.5g/lb = 273g protein

Bob has 8 meals a day...... Or 9 if you count 2am pissy times...

8: 182 = 22.7g per meal

8: 273 = 34.1g per meal

I have been advised 2g/kg of body weight rather than 1.5/lb...

So my statistics would be 166g protein per day.. Or

8: 166 = 20.7g per meal.........

A small study performed on young and elderly found that ingestion of 340 grams of lean beef (90g protein) did not increase muscle protein synthesis any more than ingestion of 113 grams of lean beef (30g protein). In both groups, muscle protein synthesis increased by 50%. The study concluded that more than 30g protein in a single meal did not further enhance the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis in young and elderly.

Protein is important, but its not all about protein & nothing else....

I believe protein carbs & fats of the right proportions evenly spaced out in 6 to 8 meals over the day is the correct method to best gain muscle size & strength......

It seems we come from a very different school of thought.... We both have out opinions, & know what works best for us..........

I think given the circumstances we should, in a good old British fashion... Agree to differ........

:clap:

[rimma]

:banging: :doh: :dancing:

that is all

[ThePman]

8: 166 = 20.7g per meal.........

Which is different from saying his body will "waste" any more than that. He could eat two meals and if he got the same amount it wouldn't matter.

A small study performed on young and elderly found that ingestion of 340 grams of lean beef (90g protein) did not increase muscle protein synthesis any more than ingestion of 113 grams of lean beef (30g protein). In both groups, muscle protein synthesis increased by 50%. The study concluded that more than 30g protein in a single meal did not further enhance the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis in young and elderly.

Stimulation of protein synthesis in the post-absorptive phase is only part of the equation. Which is why I said you have to look at the net effect over the day, not the individual time-slices.

If you simply want to stimulate MPS, then you can take a few grams of leucine and be done with it. There's more to this than MPS elevation after a meal.

[bob26]

some very good discussion here between you guys. Have to say that i am having to go with Pman on this one. How ever i am going to stick to have my 10 meals a day just purely for the fact that i know it is working for me. 8)

Just took two turbos pre workout today and did a 200kg dead lift for 1 rep :grin: Absolutley stoked with that. Haven't done a lift that heavy since i was 102kg Body Weight & eating a decent amount of carbs.

Also my set before that did 3 Reps of 180kg.

TURBOS FTW. :nod:

[Elite121]

some very good discussion here between you guys. Have to say that i am having to go with Pman on this one. How ever i am going to stick to have my 10 meals a day just purely for the fact that i know it is working for me. 8)

Just took two turbos pre workout today and did a 200kg dead lift for 1 rep :grin: Absolutley stoked with that. Haven't done a lift that heavy since i was 102kg Body Weight & eating a decent amount of carbs.

Also my set before that did 3 Reps of 180kg.

TURBOS FTW. :nod:

On fire buddy you had a couple of people watching, and a few claps going you finished off those dips 10X10?

[startinfromscratch]

personally, im happy to piss out some protein - that means im tapped out, which is where i wanna be! im around 200lb, but always get at LEAST 200g pro a day. some days would be close to 300.

can my liver cope? f*ck yes.

am i wasting$? potentially, yes

am i highly anabolic, in positive nitrogen balance, and maxing potential gains? YES!

i know what ima keep doin! :nod:

[bob26]

some very good discussion here between you guys. Have to say that i am having to go with Pman on this one. How ever i am going to stick to have my 10 meals a day just purely for the fact that i know it is working for me. 8)

Just took two turbos pre workout today and did a 200kg dead lift for 1 rep :grin: Absolutley stoked with that. Haven't done a lift that heavy since i was 102kg Body Weight & eating a decent amount of carbs.

Also my set before that did 3 Reps of 180kg.

TURBOS FTW. :nod:

On fire buddy you had a couple of people watching, and a few claps going you finished off those dips 10X10?

yeah man for the dips i got 8 sets of 10 but then the last two sets i got 9 then 8. So 97 Dips total.

As for the people clapping with the dead lift. I think most people thought i was training for the special olympics. They were thinking this guy can't even wear his T shirt the right way around but f*ck he can lift some weight off the floor. :pfft:

[bob26]

personally, im happy to piss out some protein - that means im tapped out, which is where i wanna be! im around 200lb, but always get at LEAST 200g pro a day. some days would be close to 300.

can my liver cope? f*ck yes.

am i wasting$? potentially, yes

am i highly anabolic, in positive nitrogen balance, and maxing potential gains? YES!

i know what ima keep doin! :nod:

Well thats a good way of putting it without to much heavy scientific stuff :wink:

[Elite121]

some very good discussion here between you guys. Have to say that i am having to go with Pman on this one. How ever i am going to stick to have my 10 meals a day just purely for the fact that i know it is working for me. 8)

Just took two turbos pre workout today and did a 200kg dead lift for 1 rep :grin: Absolutley stoked with that. Haven't done a lift that heavy since i was 102kg Body Weight & eating a decent amount of carbs.

Also my set before that did 3 Reps of 180kg.

TURBOS FTW. :nod:

On fire buddy you had a couple of people watching, and a few claps going you finished off those dips 10X10?

yeah man for the dips i got 8 sets of 10 but then the last two sets i got 9 then 8. So 97 Dips total.

As for the people clapping with the dead lift. I think most people thought i was training for the special olympics. They were thinking this guy can't even wear his T shirt the right way around but f*ck he can lift some weight off the floor. :pfft:

Crack-up!!

[Daz69]

8: 166 = 20.7g per meal.........

Which is different from saying his body will "waste" any more than that. He could eat two meals and if he got the same amount it wouldn't matter.

A small study performed on young and elderly found that ingestion of 340 grams of lean beef (90g protein) did not increase muscle protein synthesis any more than ingestion of 113 grams of lean beef (30g protein). In both groups, muscle protein synthesis increased by 50%. The study concluded that more than 30g protein in a single meal did not further enhance the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis in young and elderly.

Stimulation of protein synthesis in the post-absorptive phase is only part of the equation. Which is why I said you have to look at the net effect over the day, not the individual time-slices.

If you simply want to stimulate MPS, then you can take a few grams of leucine and be done with it. There's more to this than MPS elevation after a meal.

Yeh, I'll agree with that...........

[Daz69]

some very good discussion here between you guys. Have to say that i am having to go with Pman on this one. How ever i am going to stick to have my 10 meals a day just purely for the fact that i know it is working for me. 8)

Just took two turbos pre workout today and did a 200kg dead lift for 1 rep :grin: Absolutley stoked with that. Haven't done a lift that heavy since i was 102kg Body Weight & eating a decent amount of carbs.

Also my set before that did 3 Reps of 180kg.

TURBOS FTW. :nod:

Good luck & all the best with your training Bob...

[HumanPerformance]

Ok, so ive stayed out of this debate untill now. I have followed it though as Bob is actually a client of mine (as you will see him thank me earlier in this thread) But I feel I must now interject.

Daz, I have read through alot of your posts and Im am impressed with your knowledge base, particularly when it comes to anabolic steriod use and its ramifications on a psychological level.You have been in the game along time and have truly "walked the walk".

As you will see if you click on my link I have been a PT for the last 15 years who specialises in preparing bopdybuilders for competition ( 21 first place comeptitors in the last 3 years, not to mention dozens of 2nd and 3rd placings ) I have trained bodybuilders from the first day they walked in the gym to world championship level. I only say this to indicate to you that I to know what Im talking about (wether it is more than yourself is a different conversation entirely).

What Pman has been posting is correct re protein assimilation and the ability to for the human to digest and assorb large amounts of protein. I do not say this just to agree with him ( as Pman and I have had our disagrements on here as well). But because it is true and correct.

But..... you are also right when you say that there are times that the amount of protein that Bob takes in could be over and above his particular protien needs at that point in time. There will be times during the day in which protien in Bobs system is either converted into energy or or excreted entirely. At these particular points in time the excess protien he has ingested is indeed surplus to requirements and therefore "a waste".

But the main point of him taking in so much protien is this -

There are only 3 macronutirents, carbs protein and fat. Of these 3 as you know protein is the least likely to be stored as bodyfat (as you mentioned in an earlier post protein is especially hard to digest). So when someone is dieting to lose body fat, by making the majority of thier caloric intake protein we are stacking the odds in thier favour (i.e insulin response via carb comsumption is a no longer an issue). This is why Bobs protein intake is so high (after all the calories have to come from somewhere). Another aspect of this decision is as overall caloric intake drops the requirement of protein increases.

[bob26]

Ok, so ive stayed out of this debate untill now. I have followed it though as Bob is actually a client of mine (as you will see him thank me earlier in this thread) But I feel I must now interject.

Daz, I have read through alot of your posts and Im am impressed with your knowledge base, particularly when it comes to anabolic steriod use and its ramifications on a psychological level.You have been in the game along time and have truly "walked the walk".

As you will see if you click on my link I have been a PT for the last 15 years who specialises in preparing bopdybuilders for competition ( 21 first place comeptitors in the last 3 years, not to mention dozens of 2nd and 3rd placings ) I have trained bodybuilders from the first day they walked in the gym to world championship level. I only say this to indicate to you that I to know what Im talking about (wether it is more than yourself is a different conversation entirely).

What Pman has been posting is correct re protein assimilation and the ability to for the human to digest and assorb large amounts of protein. I do not say this just to agree with him ( as Pman and I have had our disagrements on here as well). But because it is true and correct.

But..... you are also right when you say that there are times that the amount of protein that Bob takes in could be over and above his particular protien needs at that point in time. There will be times during the day in which protien in Bobs system is either converted into energy or or excreted entirely. At these particular points in time the excess protien he has ingested is indeed surplus to requirements and therefore "a waste".

But the main point of him taking in so much protien is this -

There are only 3 macronutirents, carbs protein and fat. Of these 3 as you know protein is the least likely to be stored as bodyfat (as you mentioned in an earlier post protein is especially hard to digest). So when someone is dieting to lose body fat, by making the majority of thier caloric intake protein we are stacking the odds in thier favour (i.e insulin response via carb comsumption is a no longer an issue). This is why Bobs protein intake is so high (after all the calories have to come from somewhere). Another aspect of this decision is as overall caloric intake drops the requirement of protein increases.

Well i will just carry on then 8)

[Daz69]

What Pman has been posting is correct re protein assimilation and the ability to for the human to digest and assorb large amounts of protein. I do not say this just to agree with him ( as Pman and I have had our disagrements on here as well). But because it is true and correct.

Hi There

I accept what you are saying above, that the body can absorb large amounts of protein.......

It is what your body does with it that is in dispute..!!

Could you just clarify for me, as I am unsure as to what you are saying happens to it after that..???

Are you saying your body can utilise every last gram, no matter how much you consume....

Or there are limits to how much from each meal can be directly used before the rest gets pissed out..??

[ThePman]

It seems you are putting yourself out on a limb here by basing your arguement on the work of Layne Norton....

He has focused his research purely on protein synthesis but neglected to include data on skeletal muscle breakdown (in his own words because data is more hard to obtain)....

Fair enough.

I'm sure you can provide superior science that demonstrates you must eat small meals at least six times a day?

Or do you not have to support that claim, while dismissing evidence I provide as pure labcoating?

(I know you don't have that science, and you're just going to come back with how well it worked for you and thousands of clients over the years, but this claim came out of research into protein intake, not any specific experiences... so, you know. Yeah.)

I've been involved with this Uni lot before, they are always looking to knock accepted theories & put forward their new & wonderful ideas..!!!

Remember, they are just that... Theories...!!!!

It may be true, he may have hit on a new & revolutionary theory...

He also may not..!!!!!

Oh I know, theories aren't proven, insert rest of "science sucks unless it supports me" lecture at your leisure.

This doesn't have anything to do with science. It's about unnecessary complexity in diet rules. Telling people that they can't eat more than X protein in a meal, and that they must eat 6+ meals a day to succeed, is unnecessary complexity.

I'm saying that there is a simpler rule set of things that are mandatory. I'm not saying your suggestions won't work. I'm saying they aren't essential.

I have been in this game 31 years, & throughout all of that time new & revolutionary methods of diet, nutrition & training techniques have been put forward, contradicting & recontradicting each other, year after year...

Sure, if you keep looking at things at face value without any kind of deeper analysis. Going beyond the superficial, you find that there's very little that's new. There's fads, there's marketing, but basics don't ever change.

After all these years & Millions of pounds/dollars spent in research, you would think by now someone might understand how are bodys work, & respond to diet & exercise....

Alot of the info put out is financed by suppliment companies, to better promote their new & more expensive products.. Or the Uni crowd, hoping their revolutionary work might get them a better pass result & more funding to keep them in their safe Uni environment, so not having to work in the real world like the rest of us....

So what does the average BB/PL do..??????

We have to trust our instincts, use what works best for us and has worked for everybody else.... Use trusted & tried techniques, that have been proven to work for literally millions of BB/PL, for the last 40/50 years...

Not put yourself out on a limb, contradict a system used by millions every day merely on the theory of one uni prat....

Interesting that you mention this, given that nothing here is "revolutionary" or new. It's about the simplest approach that can still work.

If anything, it's this emphasis on meal frequency and protein timing (aka supplement industry marketing) that is the "new theory" nonsense.

It turns out you're not arguing about "experience". You're arguing about somebody else's bad science.

Do you employ his system yourself..??? Has it worked for You... Are you a champion powerlifter or Bodybuilder..??? Are you over 250lbs & fukin huge..???

My training partner of the last 30 years can answer Yes to the last two questions.... Can You..?

Layne can, so why are you writing him off so easily?

This is why going Pure Bro can leave you stranded. You end up picking your facts like your favorite rugby team, and there's always somebody on the other team that can play just as well.

I'd rather be objective about it and reduce things to the simplest terms. I'd rather understand the subject than fight over which fad diet is right.

If you're more interested in defending your bad science which you think is experience, don't let me stop you.

[cycomiko]

Laymans group (Layne is one stdent) also does work with data on breakdown, because it is only of minor importance(mainly cos there aint much we can do to change the responses). Combine that with the difficulty, and greater expense at gaining quality data (not the simplistic three-compartment modelling often utilized by Bob Wolfes students, or worse, the typical modelling used by Daniel Tomes group or the whole body stuff put out by Boiries group).

Its a big who=cares.

Plus, if you have been in this for 31 years, you could perhaps use the correct scientific meaning for theory, not the lay public garbage.

[HumanPerformance]

What Pman has been posting is correct re protein assimilation and the ability to for the human to digest and assorb large amounts of protein. I do not say this just to agree with him ( as Pman and I have had our disagrements on here as well). But because it is true and correct.

Hi There

I accept what you are saying above, that the body can absorb large amounts of protein.......

It is what your body does with it that is in dispute..!!

Could you just clarify for me, as I am unsure as to what you are saying happens to it after that..???

Are you saying your body can utilise every last gram for Muscle building, no matter how much you consume....Or there are limits to how much from each meal can be directly used for muscle building..??

That was my original statement .....

Thanks for your reply, I appreciate methods & research do change, & maybe some of us Old-schoolers need not to be stuck in our old ways...

No the body cannot utilise every last gram of protein for muscle building you consume. Otherwise if you ate 700g of protien a day you would gain 4.9kg of muscle a week! Week after week! You and I know both know that just dosent happen. This is true even when on anabolic/androgenic steroids which definately increases the conversion of digested protein to new musscle tissue.

Think of it this way. When you deficate that is the accumilation of the macronutients your body didnt need over the last 24hrs or so. This of course is waste that your body could not assorb or just didnt need at the time that you consumed it. So if you were to consume 700g a day of protein a day and no other macro nutrient you wouldnt go weeks on end with deficating would you.

[Daz69]

I think my original statement has been misunderstood... I stated that I thought 60g in one session was too much..!!!!! And that any excess (although I accept the body can use it elsewhere) is wasted as far as protein synthesis is concerned....!!!!

I dont believe that if you consume just 3 or so huge meals containing IE: 100+g protein per meal, that all of that protein will be utilised....

[Daz69]

..................

[Daz69]

..........................

[ThePman]

So Pmans theory of consuming all the days protein requirements in just 3 or so meals a day (and it all being used to build muscle)... Is incorrect..!!!!

Well, there's a few things wrong here.

1. This isn't "my theory". This is basic physiology.

2. I didn't say you should consume all your protein in three meals. I said you could. Not everyone has the flexibility to eat 6-8 meals per day. Not everyone wants to. Those people won't automatically fail at a diet if they don't.

3. Nobody besides you is claiming that any amount of ingested protein could ever go completely towards building muscle. Most of what you eat winds up oxidized for energy or at the very least engaged in active protein turnover in muscle and other tissue. In the best circumstances, a small decimal point of a percentage will go towards protein accretion in the muscle. To claim that "all the protein" you eat could go to build muscle is just wrong. That's never the case, no matter how you eat.

4. It's important to note that besides all this, you still haven't made any positive claims as why your "theory" (this is fun) is superior. Providing results isn't sufficient when I can point to other people that don't obey this limit* and still look great, are strong, etc. etc.

* Which you must have tested with your Hammer Strength lab equipment down at the gym while you were working out, because science is wrong and being a good bodybuilder tells you how protein physiology works?

So I assume in that context, your body must have a limit to the amount of protein it can use to build muscle in each meal (although the amount depends upon needs & requirements of that individual)......

Oh it absolutely does have a limit; that wasn't ever in question. If it didn't, as HP pointed out you'd be able to gain ridiculous amounts of muscle each week. Even AAS only raises the usage threshold by a relatively small amount.

The point being, trying to build your diet around the protein metabolism of skeletal muscle is pretty pointless, given that the body uses protein for other purposes, and one of those purposes is fueling the net turnover of protein in your muscle.

This is that "bad science" thing popping up again

[Ronin]

Hey Pman, I just gotta ask...are you a naturally very patient kinda guy, or are there a lot of holes in the wall next to your computer? :pfft:

On a more serious note, can Daz (or anyone else that supports the idea that you must eat 6+ times through the day) explain how that reconciles with IF? With an eating window of 5-6hrs, there's no way I'm squishing 6+ meals into myself. And...wait for it..."that's what seems to work for me" :shock: :pfft:

[Pseudonym]

I'm loving this debate. Good stuff all round, guys.