training help

[ThePman]

My point was simple and its got off topic... he stated hes gaining fat and not muscle... therefore he is eating more than he needs to e.g. 70+g of protein in one meal is clearly not helping him build muscle is it!

So of all the things he's eating, it's the 70g+ of protein that's making him fat, and not the rest of his diet? That's an interesting viewpoint.

Im not here for a dick measuring contest with you, I know what works for me and what doesnt. (Im well aware that what works for me wont work for everyone but what he is currently doing isnt working for him either)! Its up to apo1 to decide who's advice to take and considering you havnt actually given him Im gunna leave it at that.

I know what works for me (and others) too, but that has little to do with drawing flawed conclusions based on unsupported claims about physiology. Correlation is not causation.

If you're going to "overeat" on any given macronutrient, protein is the better choice. If he's getting fat from what he's doing, there are much more likely places to look in his diet (and training/activity) than simply eating "too much" protein at one meal.

Im guna go eat 2kg of steak now because theres no such thing as too much protein Im sure it will all be used to build muscle. :roll:

I'm not sure why it's so hard to actually discuss these points without having a tantrum.

In any case, excess/unused protein tends to oxidize and generally isn't stored as fat. Thermal inefficiency and all that. It takes extraordinary amounts of daily protein to see gluconeogenesis take place, on the order of 2-2.5g per lb of bodyweight at least.

[Yeah-Buddy]

I'm not sure why it's so hard to actually discuss these points without having a tantrum.

Im not having a tantrum mate Im simply not on here to argue with you. Noone is interested in seeing who knows more. Ado1 asked for some help.. youv offered none so unless your actually going to offer some just do everyone a favour and stop trying to act like a big shot cause no1 actually gives a shit.

[ThePman]

youv offered none so unless your actually going to offer some just do everyone a favour and stop trying to act like a big shot cause no1 actually gives a shit.

Debunking garbage advice is a public service.

[rose]

I refrained from posting anything til now, yes, it was hard :pfft:

cause no1 actually gives a shit

See, that's where I beg to differ sir. Some people do give a shit, and perhaps if more did, they'd fucken learn something and not make people who actually hold proven knowledge feel like they're wasting their time posting it.

Pman has given the OP help, by correcting some dumb arse statements.

We now return you to your scheduled broadcast.

[Ronin]

I'm not sure why it's so hard to actually discuss these points without having a tantrum.

Im not having a tantrum mate Im simply not on here to argue with you. Noone is interested in seeing who knows more. Ado1 asked for some help.. youv offered none so unless your actually going to offer some just do everyone a favour and stop trying to act like a big shot cause no1 actually gives a shit.

Mein Gott, there's toys flying in all directions :pfft:

I for one am interested in who knows more, it helps me to know who to take advice from. And in this case, it's a clear-cut decision, no contest. As for Pman doing favours, I'd have to say that he's done several in his time on here, from correcting crap advice to dishing out some valuable information. So yes in this thread he has offered help, by illuminating some of the flawed arguments that might otherwise have led the OP astray.

Nuff said. As you were, I'm off to grab some popcorn (keto-friendly of course)

[Yeah-Buddy]

Crap advice? ok then if you really think that excess protein doesnt turn into fat then your the dumb arse!

Protein is broken down to amino acids. Excess aminos are converted to glucose. Glucose is converted to glycogen. Depending on the individual only a certain amount of glycogen can be stored and any excess above this storage level is converted to fat by the liver.

Go ahead and try to argue the point some more but Im done with this.

[startinfromscratch]

OP, ignore the e-homo.

Keep it simple mate, in my (and most others) opinion here, being a bit over your required protein is not going to do you any harm. far, far better to be over than under mate!

When your still learning about eating to bulk, dont sweat the small stuff! just eat big, get plenty of protein, and clean carbs.

in my limited experience, i didnt start putting on mass until i STOPPED trying to conform to my "ideal" protein levels, and just ate bigger, protein included. im 20kg's heavier now than i was last year in jan, started at 72kgs. happy to give you some more details on diet stuff if you want, just pm me.

and one last thing, pman knows his shit - his advice is gold, esp for free!

[ThePman]

Crap advice? ok then if you really think that excess protein doesnt turn into fat then your the dumb arse!

Protein is broken down to amino acids. Excess aminos are converted to glucose. Glucose is converted to glycogen. Depending on the individual only a certain amount of glycogen can be stored and any excess above this storage level is converted to fat by the liver.

Go ahead and try to argue the point some more but Im done with this.

I don't have to argue it anymore. Your viewpoint is based on an incomplete at best, and inaccurate at worst, understanding of what actually happens in the body.

When the kid's eating 3000+ kcal worth of food, including a lot of bread and PB, it's just wrong to tell him to eat *less* protein - as if that's what's making him fatter?

Come on now.

[rose]

including a lot of bread and PB

Whatareyoutalkingaboutpmanwhodoyouthinkyouaremakingsuchboldclaimsbased

onincompleteandinaccurateinformation :snooty: :pfft:

[Yeah-Buddy]

Incomplete and inaccurate? Im seriously confused how you can even question science. What I said isnt incomplete nor inaccurate its what happens and any physiology text book will confirm this.

[Beef]

Incomplete and inaccurate? Im seriously confused how you can even question science. What I said isnt incomplete nor inaccurate its what happens and any physiology text book will confirm this.

you think science shouldnt be questioned? so you'll believe everything that science has ever proven?

[Yeah-Buddy]

Incomplete and inaccurate? Im seriously confused how you can even question science. What I said isnt incomplete nor inaccurate its what happens and any physiology text book will confirm this.

you think science shouldnt be questioned? so you'll believe everything that science has ever proven?

I certainly believe science over someone on this forum.

[Ronin]

I certainly believe science over someone on this forum.

Why do the two have to be mutually exclusive?

BTW, go back a couple hundred years and "science" had proved that the earth was flat...

"Im seriously confused how you can even question science"

By it's very nature, science involves constantly questioning that which is "known", attempting to confirm, disprove, or refine the current state of knowledge

[Yeah-Buddy]

I certainly believe science over someone on this forum.

Why do the two have to be mutually exclusive?

BTW, go back a couple hundred years and "science" had proved that the earth was flat...

LOL I was waiting for that. Well I sure didnt study physiology to go and believe different from what I learnt. Until science proves wrong what is in current physiological text books and research articles I am going to stick with what has been proven to be true. Science has come a long way from when people thought the earth was flat.

[EMC]

I think that I need to up my training intensity, when I go to the gym I work hard but am often not sore after my training.

What tips could you give for uping the workout intensity?

I was also thinking about taking the Graspy nutrition supplement plasma jet.

hey man

avoid over training, train as heavy as you can your intensity will progressively escelate over time, preperation by means of nutrition hydration and warmup/stretch routine.

over-training

many people try do 5 6 exercises per body group even with lower volume is too much and imagine the average joe typically uses moderate-high volume. you dont need to guess when people are over-training.

my typical chest routine for example is only made up of three exercises:

flat bench, incline bench, dips-simple and effective. all my other body routines are simple and effective as well.

train heavy

cycle heavy and light workouts so you allow your body and cns to fully recover while forgiving and conditioning your joints with lighter loads.

when you train heavy try do sets of 2-4 reps on your max sets, but first make sure your form is where it needs to be to lift heavy otherwise you may injure yourself.

preparation

always make sure your eating enough leading up to your workout but not too heavy too close to your workout as itll slow you down. keep your hydration up otherwise you will just feel lathargic and overheat quickly. a good stretch and warmup routine goes a long way to good progress and injury prevention. sometimes i spend up to 30 minutes just in my warmup/stretch routine.

as you get bigger and stronger your intensity will increase as your involvement, attitude and focus increases. i walk into the gym and i switch it on-everything else doesnt matter.

[ThePman]

Incomplete and inaccurate? Im seriously confused how you can even question science. What I said isnt incomplete nor inaccurate its what happens and any physiology text book will confirm this.

I'm not questioning science. I'm saying that you don't understand the science, or what the science implies.

Pretty big difference.

[TonganTerror]

Preferably with something peer-reviewed; I'm not big on "cause I said so" as validation of a point, and secondly, I'm not aware of any (real) physiological issues w/ getting large amounts of protein in one meal, nor with any (real) requirement for eating 6+ meals.

Protein boluses and real rates of digestion mean that multiple meals won't achieve the stated goal.

Pman Just a query on the 6 plus meals a day isnt this what we as bodybuilders or as anyone training should be aiming to do r.e keeping the metabolism ticking over etc?

Honest question not wanting to get slated ive just joined and am enjoying the knowledge and difference of opinion.

[ThePman]

Pman Just a query on the 6 plus meals a day isnt this what we as bodybuilders or as anyone training should be aiming to do r.e keeping the metabolism ticking over etc?

Honest question not wanting to get slated ive just joined and am enjoying the knowledge and difference of opinion.

It's what everyone does, but honestly there's not a lot of real evidence to back it up as being necessary. Yes, I realize that it does work as a strategy for a lot of people. What I'm talking about here is not an either-or thing.

The recommendation is based on the idea of keeping metabolism going, as you say. The problem is, metabolic rate is more dependent on total calorie balance than any one meal. Any meal you eat will both increase metabolic rate and increase fat storage due to insulin; so what happens when you eat say 3 big meals vs. 6 small meals?

The gist of it is that lots of smaller meals leads to an increase in MR, so that part is true; the problem is, it also leads to less opportunity between meals for fat to be used up. Since you've always got food in your gut, which is releasing aminos and carbs (and elevating insulin as a result), fat oxidation never really kicks up. It takes only very small elevations in insulin to halt fat-burning, enough that even a protein meal will do it.

The opposite happens with fewer bigger meals: you get less net gain in MR, but more opportunity for fat oxidation between meals. Food has time to clear the gut, insulin levels drop, and fatty-acid oxidation increases.

The net result over 24 hours, between the two conditions? The same amount of calories will yield the same outcome, as far as net metabolic rate and fat oxidation over a day. It's the net that matters, not the response to any single meal.

You tend to notice that a lot in the body's feedback systems - an increase in one area will lead to a decrease in another area, with the end result being no real change at the end of the day.

Realistically, I think there's nothing wrong with eating multiple meals a day, if that agrees with you. On the other hand, I don't see anything wrong with eating fewer meals, either.

The bits that matter:

1) Getting enough of the right macros. Protein and essential fats need to be at certain "adequate" values, with carbs making up the remainder based on activity level.

2) Set calories at the right level. One meal or six, if you over-eat, you put on weight; under-eat, you lose weight. If you're doing a ton of activity, you need more food than someone who sits at a desk all day and lifts weights once a week.

3) Touched on in point one, but eat to fuel activity. I like getting "faster" protein before/during workouts and "slower" protein after, but for a variety of reasons relating to protein quality and digestion, even this may not matter - in other words, just get "something".

Other than that, I think most of it is details and frankly "what works for you". If eating six or more meals a day works in your schedule, keeps you feeling full, and allows you to stick to a diet, by all means do it.

On the other hand, you've got guys doing intermittent fasting diets that are getting extraordinarily lean while only eating a few meals in an 8-hour window each day - and fasting the rest of the time.

[TonganTerror]

Thanks Pman that is a great explanation so over 24 hours same calorie intake either way same net result same benefits nice!!!

Only thing being if you areon a cut then the three big meals will leave you hungry in between meals so staying full feeling all the time is of benefit in this situation.

Winter sizing up for me so good calories and lots of them are all that matters to me right now lol!

[Yeah-Buddy]

Incomplete and inaccurate? Im seriously confused how you can even question science. What I said isnt incomplete nor inaccurate its what happens and any physiology text book will confirm this.

I'm not questioning science. I'm saying that you don't understand the science, or what the science implies.

If you say so and since you said it it must be true :roll:

[Ronin]

On the other hand, you've got guys doing intermittent fasting diets that are getting extraordinarily lean while only eating a few meals in an 8-hour window each day - and fasting the rest of the time.

I assume you're referring to the likes of the Warrior Diet? I've read about it over on bb.com, but kinda laughed it off. It just seemed odd to gorge yourself for 4 hrs, and then fast for 20. Is there some basis for this though?

[ThePman]

On the other hand, you've got guys doing intermittent fasting diets that are getting extraordinarily lean while only eating a few meals in an 8-hour window each day - and fasting the rest of the time.

I assume you're referring to the likes of the Warrior Diet? I've read about it over on bb.com, but kinda laughed it off. It just seemed odd to gorge yourself for 4 hrs, and then fast for 20. Is there some basis for this though?

I don't have all the research right on hand, but there does appear to be something to short-term fasting - at least in the sense that it's not "OMG CATABOLIC!" as common wisdom holds.

There's been a lot of interest in the idea in the last few years, mainly because it's just a convenient way to eat. I've toyed with it myself in the last nine months and I really like it. I dropped around 8kg in two months at the end of last year with that approach.

I don't think there's magic to it or anything; it's just a smart and very easy way to control how much you eat. Follow a few other rules (like getting protein at each meal; sometimes I even get up to 100g at once!) and you're set.

If you're really interested in the research, check out leangains.com. I know Martin going back a few years back and he's got more research than you could ever want.

[ThePman]

If you say so and since you said it it must be true :roll:

I could start linking papers off Pubmed, and to Layne Norton's recent research into "protein bolusing", but you'd just start with the "well I know what works for me so hell with u" lines.

So why bother? You're not after science. You just want to hide behind it as long as you think it supports you.

[cantygirl]

Hang in there apo1, this too will pass. Like I said cut back on the toast.

[apo1]

Im replacing some of the toast with rice and potatoes

Thanks cantygirl