training help

[apo1]

Ok here's where im at,

Am 19 and been training for about a year now and made ok gains in that time, use to be 57kg and Im now around 70kg but been stuck here for awhile and also im 1.67cm tall.

Im aiming at around 3000 cals a day with 30g protein min each meal. But with all the eating am seeing body fat going up but not so much muscle, eventhough im eating quality foods like oatmeal, chopchop chicken, rice crackers, etc.

Training 4 times a week with 1 hour 15mins weights and 10mins warm up on the treadmil. Also using split routines.

I trying to sort out my training and was wondering if doing a training routine of doing, 2 weeks 5x5, them 2 weeks lighter weight and more reps, then back to 2 weeks 5x5 and so on would be a good idea to put on as much muscle as possible.

Hoping to some day get into competitive BBing so looking for advice.

[teamfatboy]

use to be 57kg and Im now around 70kg also im 1.67cm tall.

Im aiming at around 3000 cals a day with 30g protein min each meal. But with all the eating am seeing body fat going up but not so much muscle, eventhough im eating quality foods like oatmeal, chopchop chicken, rice crackers, etc.

Training 4 times a week with 1 hour 15mins weights and 10mins warm up on the treadmil. Also using split routines.

Um.. some additional info would be helpful:

Any idea of current %bodyfat;

how did you decide on the 3000 cals figure ?

How much of your diet's carbs, and how much is fats; and

what's your immediate goal - building muscle, shredding bodyfat ?

[apo1]

Current BF around 20%,

Got the 3000cals figure from the Harris-Bennedict calculation.

Carbs are similar to protein with around 30g a meal, I dont have to much fats but for some meals ill have fish or some pennut butter,

My intermidiate goal is to build muscle.

Thanks,

[Yeah-Buddy]

If your currently 20% bodyfat you really need to be careful from here in terms of building muscle. Whenever you are eating to grow some bodyfat will generally come with it so you dont want to let that figure get much higher or its a long way back when you start wanting good definition to go with it.

Best idea if your putting on bodyfat and not muscle is post up your diet.. include all quanties and meal times. It could be a couple simple things your doing wrong and an easy fix.

[apo1]

The 20% BF was just a guess havn't had it checked in awhile as am student and use uni gym where its not possible to do the test.

Diet is as follows:

9:00am:Pre workout meal: Protein Shake, 5 Weetbix with unflavoured yogurt.

12:00pm: Post workout meal: Protein Shake, 160g can Chopchop chicken which has 32.4g protein, 3 peices of wheatmeal toast for carbs with butter or peanut butter for fats.

2:00pm:160g can Chopchop chicken, 3 peices of wheatmeal toast for carbs with butter or peanut butter for fats.

4:00pm:160g can Chopchop chicken, 3 peices of wheatmeal toast for carbs with butter or peanut butter for fats.

7:00pm: Get meal provided for dinner, usally steak or pasta with bacon and what not in it, or something along those lines. Also have salad and some bread with dinner.

9:00pm: Protein shake and Can of chopchop chicken.

(some times I substitute the Chopchop chicken for a can of tuna so I don't get sik off it.)

Only have limited meal opptions because am student and dont have access to a stove only a microwave.

Cheers,

[cantygirl]

You have an awful lot of toast in your diet, ever thought of including some natural carbs eg kumera, potatoe?

[apo1]

I will replace the toast with some natural carbs at 12:00 and 4:00 to give me better sustained energy.

Thanks for the advice cantygirl

[Yeah-Buddy]

The 20% BF was just a guess havn't had it checked in awhile as am student and use uni gym where its not possible to do the test.

Diet is as follows:

9:00am:Pre workout meal: Protein Shake, 5 Weetbix with unflavoured yogurt.

12:00pm: Post workout meal: Protein Shake, 160g can Chopchop chicken which has 32.4g protein, 3 peices of wheatmeal toast for carbs with butter or peanut butter for fats.

2:00pm:160g can Chopchop chicken, 3 peices of wheatmeal toast for carbs with butter or peanut butter for fats.

4:00pm:160g can Chopchop chicken, 3 peices of wheatmeal toast for carbs with butter or peanut butter for fats.

7:00pm: Get meal provided for dinner, usally steak or pasta with bacon and what not in it, or something along those lines. Also have salad and some bread with dinner.

9:00pm: Protein shake and Can of chopchop chicken.

(some times I substitute the Chopchop chicken for a can of tuna so I don't get sik off it.)

Only have limited meal opptions because am student and dont have access to a stove only a microwave.

Cheers,

Do you wake up at 9am because if you wake earlier you should be eating immediately. The most obvious thing I see is that you are eating too much protein at each meal. You dont need to eat chop chop chicken and a have a protein shake at the same time its too much for you body. Remember that excess protein is like any other form of energy (carbs, fats etc) it will be converted to fat when in excess.

Have a shake postworkout with a banana plus your peanut butter toast. then an hour later have your can of chop chop with some rice (your body will have got thru your shake by then and want more food so you start growing - you can actually let this meal be a little dirtier steak etc as the fat will help you get more anabolic)

Also have just either the shake or the chopchop before bed not both. If you wake up in the middle of the night have a shake as well but dont wake up especially for it as sleeps more important)

[apo1]

9:00 am is when i wake up and I eat immediately.

I will implement your suggestions and change to a protein shake, banana and peanut butter toast post work out, then an hour later have the chop chop chicken and some rice, at nite ill just have the protein shake before bed.

Thanks for the advice.

[ThePman]

Do you wake up at 9am because if you wake earlier you should be eating immediately. The most obvious thing I see is that you are eating too much protein at each meal. You dont need to eat chop chop chicken and a have a protein shake at the same time its too much for you body. Remember that excess protein is like any other form of energy (carbs, fats etc) it will be converted to fat when in excess.

1. Protein is extraordinarily hard to convert and store as fat.

2. For your average person there is almost no such thing as "too much protein at one meal". If that's how he needs to eat to get his protein goal, there's nothing wrong with it.

3. Waiting one hour for another protein meal is irrelevant, since protein-containing meals can digest for upwards of 3-5 hours. If you're waiting for the GI tract to empty before eating more, he'd need to wait at least that long before eating again.

4. Even if protein could convert to fat easily, it's energy balance over the day that matters RE: fat gains, not any single meal.

[rose]

1. Protein is extraordinarily hard to convert and store as fat.

Through some highly unscientific experiments on my mini lab rat (Rose :grin: ), I have found this to be correct.

[apo1]

so does that mean that I carn't have to much protein per meal?

I've read somewhere that I should aim for 30g protein per meal, which gives me 180g protein a day.

[Beef]

Remember that excess protein is like any other form of energy (carbs, fats etc) it will be converted to fat when in excess.

yup, it's easy to forget this You need to eat a balanced diet to grow.

let's be honest, people have been brainwashed by the media into thinking that they need an excessive amount of protein to gain muscle

"According to a study published in The Journal of Sports Medicine and Physical Fitness, people who train at least 12 hours per week for at least five years need 1.37 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per day to maintain their nitrogen balance. Sedentary individuals, according to the study, require only 0.73 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per day. This is not to say that you'll shrivel up and die if you fail to get this amount of protein every day. This is merely the amount suggested to maintain muscle mass over a longer period of time."

so forget all the bullshit you read about needing ridiculous amounts of protein- chances are your body isn't making full use of it.

*end of rant*

[Beef]

so does that mean that I carn't have to much protein per meal?

I've read somewhere that I should aim for 30g protein per meal, which gives me 180g protein a day.

who do you think makes up these figures? companies that sell protein

[TonganTerror]

also looking at your 9am breakfast id ditch the weetbix for mine they are useless except for a bit of fibre change it up for a cup of porridge even consider mixing your powder into the porridge oh instant hunger yum yum lol

[TonganTerror]

am curious as to the fat content in the chop chop could you supplement a meal or two for a 185gm can of tuna high in protein practically no fat add a couple or four rice crackers for carbs!

[Beef]

am curious as to the fat content in the chop chop could you supplement a meal or two for a 185gm can of tuna high in protein practically no fat add a couple or four rice crackers for carbs!

chop chop chicken is pretty low in fat. but yes i agree that tuna is better- for three reasons

a) its a hell of a lot cheaper

b) it's high in omega 3

c) most flavours of chop chop taste like tuna!

[Yeah-Buddy]

Do you wake up at 9am because if you wake earlier you should be eating immediately. The most obvious thing I see is that you are eating too much protein at each meal. You dont need to eat chop chop chicken and a have a protein shake at the same time its too much for you body. Remember that excess protein is like any other form of energy (carbs, fats etc) it will be converted to fat when in excess.

1. Protein is extraordinarily hard to convert and store as fat.

2. For your average person there is almost no such thing as "too much protein at one meal". If that's how he needs to eat to get his protein goal, there's nothing wrong with it.

3. Waiting one hour for another protein meal is irrelevant, since protein-containing meals can digest for upwards of 3-5 hours. If you're waiting for the GI tract to empty before eating more, he'd need to wait at least that long before eating again.

4. Even if protein could convert to fat easily, it's energy balance over the day that matters RE: fat gains, not any single meal.

1. Excess protein will convert to fat like anything in excess of the body.

2. Yes there is such a thing as too much protein per meal and 70g of protein in one go is not necessary for someone weighing 70kg @ 20% BF. There is no reason for him to need to get his protein goal this way.. there are better ways to do it hence why we eat 6+ meals spaced thru the day.

3. Im well aware of the protein digestion times, a shake is digested quicker, an hour later and the body is better prepared for more protein and a proper meal. Im aware that the shake would not have been digested fully by this time but its much better than having 70g of protein in one go.

4. Once again protein can convert to fat.. not as easy as carbs and fat etc but if your consuming say 4000 cals a day and your body only needs 3000 then fat gain will occur. Cals in Cals out.

Im well aware that this does not occur from one single meal.

[EMC]

its hard to really give advice without more information like what sort of condition you started at to become 20% BF at 5'6 from 56kgs. how have you stepped up the calories leading up until now. what sort of body structure do you have?

most people who can put on drastic size fast either were built to or cheated with empty calories for the sake of weight gain.

i like your thinking of training. a lighter week with more reps and a lower week with a 5x5 routine, this routine yeilds pretty good strength and size gains and conditions your joints. i follow something like this but with different rep schemes. id still do sets of doubles and tripples for bench dead squat on your heavy days.

your diet is fine however id change up meal 2pm and 4pm. try having rice and meat portions or meat+veges+potatoes/pasta...you dont have to have PB or fatty food to justify healthy fats, just take an EFA supplement. it is annoying to cook so i could understand that may be more convenient for you. i think everyone starts out like this...most people typically cook all their food in one day for the whole week, some more often than others. i normally just cook all my rice and chicken breast for the whole week, it gets pretty moist by day 5 but whatever

post workout you want to eat as much as possible. for me this means eating as many macronutrient. eg rice has more carb calories per 100 gram than any other grain.

edit:post workout meaning after your workout not your postworkout meal

[apo1]

Ok I will switch to having poridge for breakfast and I will substitute the chop chop chicken for a can of tuna, ill also replace some of my meals of toast with rice crackers.

How much protein should I be aiming for each meal?

Thanks for all the good help.

[apo1]

My BF when is was 57kg was at around 11% so I increased my Cal intake inorder to bulk up. My body type is mesomorph according to quiz on bodybuilding.com.

Ill have a look into geting EFA supplement to replace the PB nd butter.

Im going to replace the toast i have post workout with the rice like you suggested EMC

Thanks EMC

[EMC]

i started at like 10-12% bf at 63 kgs(5ft9). i was skinny and due to the muscle composition(zero muscle) my bf wasnt lower. now im almost 90 kgs after 1.5 years later at under 15%, im probly like 13%(guess) but i have a slight gut yet similar BF%. the rest of my body is lean, its just how i was built to grow. im mesomorphic.

*note i may be similar fat % but the fat volume is obviously much much greater so really fat% means nothing if your muscle composition is right thats all that matters. dont need to be within any certain parameters.

i didnt get serious with my eating until i got serious with my training, i felt the difference and the increase in weight rapidly as i was defficient/eating the wrong foods at the wrong time. also i noticed a profound increase in recovery time.

so you may have put on weight too fast as your trainning was lacking. people often over look training and say 'nutrition is the most important thing'. why eat till you puke if its not benefitting you? youl be deemed to progressively get fatter like any person whos gradually becoming obease.

a good example and let me start off by saying it would be wiser to step-up by 500 cals at a time. i stepped up 1000 calories and put on a bit of fat but because i progressively got stronger and put on more lean mass my body balanced it out but it look alot longer than i expected.

[apo1]

I think that I need to up my training intensity, when I go to the gym I work hard but am often not sore after my training.

What tips could you give for uping the workout intensity?

I was also thinking about taking the Graspy nutrition supplement plasma jet.

[ThePman]

1. Excess protein will convert to fat like anything in excess of the body.

This isn't incompatible with what I wrote.

2. Yes there is such a thing as too much protein per meal and 70g of protein in one go is not necessary for someone weighing 70kg @ 20% BF. There is no reason for him to need to get his protein goal this way.. there are better ways to do it hence why we eat 6+ meals spaced thru the day.

Can you verify this statement?

Preferably with something peer-reviewed; I'm not big on "cause I said so" as validation of a point, and secondly, I'm not aware of any (real) physiological issues w/ getting large amounts of protein in one meal, nor with any (real) requirement for eating 6+ meals.

Protein boluses and real rates of digestion mean that multiple meals won't achieve the stated goal.

3. Im well aware of the protein digestion times, a shake is digested quicker, an hour later and the body is better prepared for more protein and a proper meal. Im aware that the shake would not have been digested fully by this time but its much better than having 70g of protein in one go.

I realize that this is the common knowledge, aka supplement advertising, but the truth is not what you might think. Ignore for a moment the fact that whey might actually be overrated as a protein source, in terms of physiological response, you also have to deal with the fact of anabolic resistance which can come about by getting protein too frequently.

What I don't get is why you say that a shake is digested "quicker", then in the next sentence you say that you're aware the shake wouldn't have been fully digested; as far as your body's concerned, these situations are identical: there's an increase in circulating levels of amino acids.

The difference in a large "pulse" of protein and lots of smaller doses of protein doesn't amount to very much. In both cases, you have a constant source of aminos filtering into the blood from the GI tract.

4. Once again protein can convert to fat.. not as easy as carbs and fat etc but if your consuming say 4000 cals a day and your body only needs 3000 then fat gain will occur. Cals in Cals out.

Of course. But how many people do you see getting fat on ketogenic diets? Protein is not easy to over-eat, and this is a red herring given the discussion.

Im well aware that this does not occur from one single meal.

Then I'm not sure why you're arguing the point at all, because he's not going to over-eat simply because he ate "too much" protein at one meal.

[Yeah-Buddy]

My point was simple and its got off topic... he stated hes gaining fat and not muscle... therefore he is eating more than he needs to e.g. 70+g of protein in one meal is clearly not helping him build muscle is it!

Im not here for a dick measuring contest with you, I know what works for me and what doesnt. (Im well aware that what works for me wont work for everyone but what he is currently doing isnt working for him either)! Its up to apo1 to decide who's advice to take and considering you havnt actually given him Im gunna leave it at that.

Im guna go eat 2kg of steak now because theres no such thing as too much protein Im sure it will all be used to build muscle. :roll: