freak

[EMC]

[Gym rat]

That was wicked

[Dr Squat]

600 for 13 reps! Yeah but he had one of those plastic shirt things on...

[Optimass]

600 for 13 reps! Yeah but he had one of those plastic shirt things on...

Thats the only thing that puts me off PLing. 600lbs is an impressive bench on its own .... but how much is the suit actually doing? I get more out of watching a guy bench 180kg raw for 12 reps. Someone please educate me ...

[Dr Squat]

600 for 13 reps! Yeah but he had one of those plastic shirt things on...

Thats the only thing that puts me off PLing. 600lbs is an impressive bench on its own .... but how much is the suit actually doing? I get more out of watching a guy bench 180kg raw for 12 reps. Someone please educate me ...

Alf (Best Bench) and I have had this discussion. I am a raw bencher and he is mostly a shirted bencher.

I have come to the conclusion that they are basically like two different sports. Almost like powerlifting is to olympic lifting. You can't compare them. I think they are equally impressive.

The thing that people need to realise is that powerlifting is mainly about shirted benching. In the case of NZ there is no "raw" federation so the lifters need to wear shirts if they are to be competitive. These guys spend much time and energy "dialing" in their shirts and perfecting their technique. It is all about technique and getting the most out of a shirt. It is a bit harsh to say that the shirt is doing the work when the best technicians are the best benchers IMO.

There are a few guys on the bench scene in NZ at the moment who are world class. Alf (Best Bench), Rueben Simanu (Tonka), Steve Lousich and Scott Parsons are the ones that I can think of easily. These guys are great athletes and they deserve to be recognised as such.

[Optimass]

So - are all shirts made the same ? same spec etc ... is there an advantage based on brand/construction?

If so then - wouldn't it be like running a GTR Skyline in the V8 supercars?

Like I say - still impressive :nod: it's my understanding that the shirt works to reinforce a lot of the supporting muscles which reduces lateral movement when performing a rep. Is that accurate?

Seems odd that no-one has introduced a RAW league in NZ as it would probably be as popular ...

[Luigi]

So - are all shirts made the same ? same spec etc ... is there an advantage based on brand/construction?

If so then - wouldn't it be like running a GTR Skyline in the V8 supercars?

Like I say - still impressive :nod: it's my understanding that the shirt works to reinforce a lot of the supporting muscles which reduces lateral movement when performing a rep. Is that accurate?

Seems odd that no-one has introduced a RAW league in NZ as it would probably be as popular ...

sounds like a job for the doc

[Dr Squat]

So - are all shirts made the same ? same spec etc ... is there an advantage based on brand/construction?

If so then - wouldn't it be like running a GTR Skyline in the V8 supercars?

Like I say - still impressive :nod: it's my understanding that the shirt works to reinforce a lot of the supporting muscles which reduces lateral movement when performing a rep. Is that accurate?

Seems odd that no-one has introduced a RAW league in NZ as it would probably be as popular ...

Alf and Tonka are better qualified to comment here. Plus Pman and Nate will also be able to offer insights...

The shirts do have to conform to certain specifications. And they have to be manufactured by recognised suppliers of which there are not many. Some guys have them custom made but they still need to be manufactured by a recognised supplier and conform to specs. I am sure the intention of the rule setters is to have the competitors in the same equipment.

From my observations there are vast variations in the assistance obtained. This seems to stem from bodyshape but also in the mastery of the equipment. The latter seems to be the key point. I know how hard Alf work in this area. And Tonka has been well known for a long time as a shirt genius.

Alf can talk about how the shirt works. My simple brain tells me that the shirt provides the majority of the assistance off the chest. Strong triceps are still required to support the weight and lock it out.

Bro, I have a dream that one day we will have a raw federation in NZ. The best part about this is that it will remove another barrier that currently exists for young guys and girls to compete. IMO the equipment makes it expensive and complex. And it confuses people. But in the meantime lets celebrate our shirted benchers I say.

[Tonka]

Many powerlifting purists (myself included) wish the shirts were never introduced. The fact that they look silly, are as uncomfortable as they look and can add anywhere from 10-50% ontop of a 1RM begs the question, how much can "that" lifter really bench RAW wise? Whenever I am asked the question, I simply answer a couple hundred kilos only because my real RAW lift max would have any average Joe bang his head sideways trying to comprehend that amount of weight. I dont even bother telling them what it is I do in shirt because they'd probably laugh in face provoking me to do something silly like face plant him through the floor. Unfortuately, shirts are (for now) here and turning up to a comp without one is like showing up to a gun fight with a swiss army knife.

As much as they "can" add to a lifters RAW max, they still require skill to work them but also strength. Sure the shirt absorbs weight across the chestplate and behind the upper tricep when lowering the bar and you get a rebound or pop off the chest BUT the last 8-10inches of the movement (what we call the transition point), or lockout its all RAW tricep power. Knowing how to develop the explosive speed off the chest and use it to full effect with 10-50% extra weight takes special training. Hence these days, a powerlifter benches twice a week, one day focusing on absolute RAW power development, and on second day to develop the dynamic speed + shirt work.

Some people (and there are some on this forum) think that because they see bench specialists doing their thing and they make it look easy, they too would be able to do the same if they were to jump straight into shirt and be able to press 50kg extra above their RAW max. HELLO!! This is absurd and probably the stupidest thing I hear/read. RAW benching and SHIRT benching are two completely different movements. Working in the shirts and getting to know them takes time. Also, lifters will get different weight/percentage increases when using shirts. Some lifters can get the magic 30+% extra when putting a shirt on and this can come down to technique, confidence and skill. Most lifters will be lucky to get 15% and thats being kind. Here in NZ, powerlifters probably average 10-12% which is anywhere from 15-20kg above their RAW max.

In the IPF there's talk of the shirts being outlawed, basically because they have advanced so much that lifters are simply not coping. I say this because at world bench press champs (held annually), more and more lifters are bombing out simply because they are either not strong enough to press the weight in the shirt or they cant get the weight of the down to their chest for the press command. Sounds silly? IT IS!!

I predict that in a few years, the IPF will abolish the new version shirts and return to the earlier design shirts - perhaps the shirts upto 2002 which were adding perhaps 15% MAX for all lifters. Either that, or they will simply get rid of the lot and allow the bench press to be between the lifter and the bar, not what we have at the moment which is a lifter, the bar and a super layer of polyester.

[rose]

Great post Tonka :nod:

[Best Bench]

Alf (Best Bench) and I have had this discussion. I am a raw bencher and he is mostly a shirted bencher.

I would actually call myself a competitive powerlifter/bench presser as such I do a lot of work with bench shirts. It is not compulsory to wear a bench shirt in competition but the aim is to lift the most weight therefore I use a bench shirt.

I think shirted benching needs to be viewed as a separate lift to raw benching, comparing the two is as useful as comparing squats to tricep kickbacks. I look at a good shirted bench and appreciate it for exactly what it is a “shirted bench”, not the old “oh, he can only lift it because he is wearing a shirt”.

I think there will be some developments from the IPF in terms of a raw division but I think there may be financial reasons behind not removing shirts altogether. At Eastside we hold raw clublifts and have started to compile a list of raw records. We hope to grow these club lifts into postal comps with the likes of powerhouse gym and perhaps one day hold a informal raw nationals.

There is already an official raw bench comp in the South Island on the NZPF calendar which is generally well attended, both the Doc (2008) and I (2005) have won this raw comp.

I am all for raw benching and also shirt benching, bottom line for me is to get people out of the gym and onto the platform.

[Optimass]

Thanks for the insight guys. Seems odd that over the last 15 years I haven't actually sat down and paid more attention to powerlifting given the weights that have been thrown around in the past. In some respects PLing seems more a thinking mans sport .... more technical is some respects than body building.

Pity my shoulders are past repair, otherwise I'd be keen to try a shirt - would be too much temptation otherwise. Working over 200kg gets a bit dicey these days.

So are there limitations around athletes competing in sanctioned shows and potential RAW shows the same way they are around competitors switching from NZFBB to fake NABBA?

[Tonka]

Thanks for the insight guys. Seems odd that over the last 15 years I haven't actually sat down and paid more attention to powerlifting given the weights that have been thrown around in the past. In some respects PLing seems more a thinking mans sport .... more technical is some respects than body building.

Pity my shoulders are past repair, otherwise I'd be keen to try a shirt - would be too much temptation otherwise. Working over 200kg gets a bit dicey these days.

So are there limitations around athletes competing in sanctioned shows and potential RAW shows the same way they are around competitors switching from NZFBB to fake NABBA?

Give it a try OM, Im sure you'll enjoy it. I would recommend doing a couple novice meets just to get a feel for the competition atmosphere, conditions and rules then if you want to have a crack join the Auckland association. There is only one national body here in NZ known as the NZPF and it is a national affiliate to the IPF. There are no other national feds in NZ so dont have to worry about being penalized for cross over.

The NZPF have bench press only meets (provicial champs and novice), a bench press only nationals if you werent interested in doing the 3 lifts events. Also, we have different weight classes (56kg, 60, 67.5, 75, 82.5, 90, 100, 110, 125, 125+) and age groups (sub-junior, junior, Open, Masters1,2,3,4).

Hope to see you on the platform OM.

Stay strong mate!

[Dr Squat]

Tonka, I' not sure if you have any administrative ambitions in a powerlifting sense. Having heard you talk and read what you have written, you would make a great leader of the NZPF at some stage when the timing suits. I say this because you are knowledgable, caring and most importantly you command respect.

Something to think about down the track. Certainly not trying to put you on the spot bro.

[Tonka]

Ive been thinking that too Doc and I need to start on my referee ticket - looking to sit my provincial exam this year. Eventually I would like to play an official part in the NZPF but not just yet. Im keen to promotoe the sport when and where i can...there is far too much untapped RAW talent floating around NZ that need some direction!

[mr natural]

I agree, it should be about the man (or women) and the weight, thats it!. shirts throw to much of a variable into it. I think it compliates such a beautifully simple thing, person v.s weight.

[Optimass]

Have checked out quite a bit online today - read the rules etc on IPL web but doesnt seem to tell you much - links directly to the apporved equipment page.

After checking out a lot of footage online you can see a lot of differences in the each bencher adjusts their weight with the shirt. Is it possible for someone put up a link with some soecs on competition bench?

Along the lines of ...

Foot placement - are their restrictions as to how far back you can tuck your feet? - do they have to be flat on the floor?

Bar grip - How far apart? And I notice none of the pros use an open grip on bar ... I have never benched with a closed grip :nod:

Alot of dodgy benching going on in youtube but thought this, even though not a comp press was pretty substantial - 180kg reverse grip :clap: thats pretty clever and with better control than most I have watched today :pfft:

[wiggy]

if you use the uprights of the bench as a guide...the guy is moving the weight about 4 inches..is arms dont appear to lock also...is that really what we guys call a bench?

[Optimass]

if you use the uprights of the bench as a guide...the guy is moving the weight about 4 inches..is arms dont appear to lock also...is that really what we guys call a bench?

You may be right - I think its too hard to tell as the bar will sit lower on the chest in a reverse grip. Check his left elbow start and finsh ... def locks. (right one not sure)

[SoaringSwine]

Have checked out quite a bit online today - read the rules etc on IPL web but doesnt seem to tell you much - links directly to the apporved equipment page.

Technical rules for the lifts can be found here: http://www.powerlifting-ipf.com/fileadm ... 5_2009.pdf

After checking out a lot of footage online you can see a lot of differences in the each bencher adjusts their weight with the shirt. Is it possible for someone put up a link with some soecs on competition bench?

Along the lines of ...

Foot placement - are their restrictions as to how far back you can tuck your feet? - do they have to be flat on the floor?

For IPF competitions the feet must be flat on the floor. Some American federations allow the heels to be up.

Bar grip - How far apart? And I notice none of the pros use an open grip on bar ... I have never benched with a closed grip :nod:

Some part of the hand must be covering the rings (82cm apart) or inside them.

[SoaringSwine]

And if you guys want to watch some big boys move some big weights around without equipment, check this stream out 8AM Monday morning.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/raw-unity-meet

There should be some 350kg+ squats and deadlifts and 220+kg benchs. Watch out especially for Mike Tuchscherer. He should be putting up over 2100lb (955kg) total without any equipment!

[Optimass]

Mike Tuchscherer

Just watched his 850lbs raw deadlift online - amazing strength.

Thanks for the links SS

[Best Bench]

Foot placement - are their restrictions as to how far back you can tuck your feet? - do they have to be flat on the floor?

Bar grip - How far apart? And I notice none of the pros use an open grip on bar ... I have never benched with a closed grip

Basic rules for IPF/NZPF

- can put your feet where you want but must remain flat on the floor.

- Max grip width is fore finger on the rings which are 81cm on a powerlifting bar (standard gym bars vary but generally wider).

- head and butt must stay on the bench

- bar must not touch below the sternum

- a press call is given once bar is motionless on the chest

A few more stupid rules but this covers most of the key rules

[boostinggtir]

Does "raw" also mean you can't warm up?

[Optimass]

The lifter must lie on his back with head, shoulders and buttocks in contact with the bench surface. The feet must be flat on the floor (as flat as the shape of the shoe will allow). His hands and fingers must grip the bar positioned in the rack stands with a thumbs around grip. This position shall be maintained throughout the lift.

Bummer about the grip being closed. When you take the thumb out of the equation it's easier to relax your forearm/bicep during the concentric phase of the movement.