Vees Ironing Vendetta

[runveerun]

Nope no back injuries ever, but I have been told if you don't keep the curve in your spine while squatting you will hurt your back.

Box squats are a great way to teach yourself 'proper' squatting technique because it's easy to sit back while pushing your knees out. Do you have boxes or steps at your gym Vee?

Ummmmm I think so I'll have to have a look I forgot about box squats I've been doing them in a power rack so I have to go straight up and down-ish, I have a tendancy to lean forward slightly on the way back up.

[rose]

Among other things, keeping your chest high will help maintain a good arch in your back and help stop you tipping forward. Have a read of this Vee:

http://stronglifts.com/how-to-avoid-leaning-forward-on-squats/

[ThePman]

Nope no back injuries ever, but I have been told if you don't keep the curve in your spine while squatting you will hurt your back.

That's pretty much true. However like most everything else, there's "truth" and then there's truth.

The idea is that a flexed spine (rounded back) is more susceptible to injury when the spine is put under load. This is where you see most lifting related back injuries happen, usually some trauma to the discs.

That said - there's a difference in rounding during a lift where you're keeping tight, and where the load combined with leverages moves you from a position of extension (the arch) to a neutral or even slightly rounded position ("hip tuck"), and rounding by actually flexing the spine due to weakness or poor technique, or just not knowing any better.

Odds are you're not going to keep an extended spine at the bottom of a full squat. Most people can't. You should *try* to keep arched, but in reality you're just not going to see it happen if you're going to full depth. Some jerks will have you squat high because of this; I think it's just another are of the ROM to strengthen.

I think that training with some degree of spinal flexion is actually a good idea; injury-prone position or not, you can train those trunk muscles and condition the connective tissues to handle those forces. Personally I'd rather have somebody able to handle it should the need arise (say if you lose position in a squat or even just bending over to pick up something), as opposed to avoiding any and all back-flexing motions on the grounds that it's dangerous.

Well, yeah technically speaking it is, but that doesn't mean you can't train to strengthen it. Even McGill, the guy mainly responsible for the "neutral spine or else!" position-stand, has admitted as much when dealing with strength athletes.

[rose]

Vee did you mean curve as in hunch or curve as in arch? :-s

[runveerun]

Thanks guys for being so informative as usual! I think my stance could be wider and the whole chest out thing too. I'll check to see if we have boxes or I could use a bench, I wear chucks for squatting anywho as they are more stabilising as they are flat, I need to curl my toes up more too, I know I end up tipping forward onto my toes slightly instaed of driving through my heels.

[runveerun]

Vee did you mean curve as in hunch or curve as in arch? :-s

You should keep an arch in your spine, like it is when your standing NOT HUNCHED!!

[rose]

NOT HUNCHED!!

Phew! :pfft: Give the box/bench squat a go. You can play around with different heights to address weaknesses too. Chest up :grin:

[ThePman]

I'd also keep in mind that unless you're squatting geared, wide-stance "sit back" style of squatting may not be the best choice.

If you're interested in squatting "free", the mechanics are a little different, and IMO you should train it accordingly. Box squats as per Westside are a good strength-building exercise but they have only limited carryover to regular squatting, from my experience.

[rose]

I'd also keep in mind that unless you're squatting geared, wide-stance "sit back" style of squatting may not be the best choice.

If you're interested in squatting "free", the mechanics are a little different, and IMO you should train it accordingly. Box squats as per Westside are a good strength-building exercise but they have only limited carryover to regular squatting, from my experience.

Curious. If you're practising form with them I think the carryover is hugely beneficial, and one of the many reasons why WSB encourage use of them in order to train for the squat. Box squats naturally teach you to sit into a squat and isolate the muscles used in regular squatting, glutes, hams, abs, etc. Though I wouldn't necessarily encourage wide stance squats for women, as wide stance is said to be uncomfortable.

[runveerun]

I think Rose is going to check my form at some point in a cafe in Lambton quay until we get kicked out :pfft:

[teamfatboy]

Vee, forgive me for chiming in late... what I noticed in the last few squats back in Dec/Jan or whenever it was, was a slight tendency for you to drop the chest and look downwards, rather than looking forwards/ upwards, which really does help tip the upper body in a beneficial direction.

My PT, and her vastly-experience partner who put me through squat hell a few years back, both hammered that point - look forward, look upwards, to keep the chest up. For me, that helped keep the weight back (more even across heels and balls-of-feet, and prevent that same rounding out.

Just my 2c worth, and I'm always open to being shown why that's unsafe/ inefficient.

[ThePman]

Curious. If you're practising form with them I think the carryover is hugely beneficial, and one of the many reasons why WSB encourage use of them in order to train for the squat. Box squats naturally teach you to sit into a squat and isolate the muscles used in regular squatting, glutes, hams, abs, etc. Though I wouldn't necessarily encourage wide stance squats for women, as wide stance is said to be uncomfortable.

WSB also trains and competes in multi-ply squat gear

Seriously, that's something that people always gloss over - if you're in a triple-ply squat suit and briefs, the wide-stance box squat is perfect. But at that point you're mainly gaming the gear. For a raw squatter, or even an IPF-legal squatter, I've just not seen the same carry-over.

Yeah they will build up the relevant muscles (as long as you don't go too low; low box squats w/ wide stance and without briefs = ouch), but the actual technique is night and day between a multi-ply squatter and a raw squatter.

They're a useful assistance lift, but the form itself isn't what I'd suggest to somebody using squats for non-PL purposes.

[runveerun]

Vee, forgive me for chiming in late... what I noticed in the last few squats back in Dec/Jan or whenever it was, was a slight tendency for you to drop the chest and look downwards, rather than looking forwards/ upwards, which really does help tip the upper body in a beneficial direction.

My PT, and her vastly-experience partner who put me through squat hell a few years back, both hammered that point - look forward, look upwards, to keep the chest up. For me, that helped keep the weight back (more even across heels and balls-of-feet, and prevent that same rounding out.

Just my 2c worth, and I'm always open to being shown why that's unsafe/ inefficient.

Ah great thanks TFB! I'm gonna practise the looking forward-and up and chest up

[rose]

until we get kicked out

LOL :shock:

keep the chest up

Totally agree. The amount of time spent reminding myself "Chest! Chest! Chest!" has paid off.

They're a useful assistance lift

Agreed :grin: I didn't mean box squats should replace squats, or that WSB applies here, but I do see them as beneficial for learning technique, and not necessarily under load or strict WSB styles. You don't have to squat WSB styles to fathom how sitting on a box helps isolate your arse etc.

[teamfatboy]

With apologies for the thread-jack, I thought one of the main benefits of box squats was eliminating the "bounce", that stored "elastic energy" from the negative?

[runveerun]

until we get kicked out

LOL :shock:

:pfft: yeh maybe better to show you my squatting in a gym, less likely to get kicked out for squatting there.

[runveerun]

With apologies for the thread-jack, I thought one of the main benefits of box squats was eliminating the "bounce", that stored "elastic energy" from the negative?

I have been told to stop doing that too, I end up going up in my squat faster than I go down with a slight bounce at the top. It needs to be more controlled on the going up?

[ThePman]

With apologies for the thread-jack, I thought one of the main benefits of box squats was eliminating the "bounce", that stored "elastic energy" from the negative?

That's part of it. The idea is that you kill the stretch reflex at the bottom and instead have to build speed off the box. Which makes it more like a deadlift than a squat in that regard. It also makes them easier on the knees and surrounding tissues, which is why I was using them when the quad tear happened.

As Westside suggests box squats, which is how most everyone does them now, it also mimics how you'd lift in a very stiff suit and briefs - wide stance, limited ROM (sometimes not even to depth!), and the suit handles the rebound out of the hole so it's "similar" to the pause on the box.

Again, a good assistance exercise, but I think folks get too caught up in trying to mimic that wide-stance "sit back" form in unequipped squats. A free squat's going to have different needs.

[rose]

Again, a good assistance exercise, but I think folks get too caught up in trying to mimic that wide-stance "sit back" form in unequipped squats. A free squat's going to have different needs.

Agreed, and these points weren't being debated nor encouraged. I don't think anyone was getting caught up trying to mimic WSB, it's a bit moot TBH. I personally found squatting onto a box, not geared, wide-stance, nor sitting ridiculously far back, really good for isolating glutes and filling in a couple of blanks re squat mechanics. I'm aware there are other ways to achieve this too. Vee if you don't find them useful, don't do them! :pfft:

[runveerun]

Again, a good assistance exercise, but I think folks get too caught up in trying to mimic that wide-stance "sit back" form in unequipped squats. A free squat's going to have different needs.

Agreed, and these points weren't being debated nor encouraged. I don't think anyone was getting caught up trying to mimic WSB, it's a bit moot TBH. I personally found squatting onto a box, not geared, wide-stance, nor sitting ridiculously far back, really good for isolating glutes and filling in a couple of blanks re squat mechanics. I'm aware there are other ways to achieve this too. Vee if you don't find them useful, don't do them! :pfft:

OK! There's alot of information I have to digest! I will be working on my stance and do box squats, see how they go, get Rose to critique my form and become a squatting expert! :wink:

[teamfatboy]

's funny, my PT has just put box-squats on my menu as well, I think for narrow-stance SM squats. I can imagine that box-Barbell front squats would be a killer workout too..... :shock:

Good luck, Squat-meister Vee :clap:

[runveerun]

's funny, my PT has just put box-squats on my menu as well, I think for narrow-stance SM squats. I can imagine that box-Barbell front squats would be a killer workout too..... :shock:

Good luck, Squat-meister Vee :clap:

Thanks! I have brain overload for a Sundee, I've been trying to do some research for work at the same time ouch my brain hurts!

[rose]

It's been scientifically proven that research makes you mental :wink:

[runveerun]

It's been scientifically proven that research makes you mental :wink:

You're telling me! If you ever want to know how a single jersey, double knit or rib knit is made, how you need to lay it and cut it and eventually sew it I'm your man! Oh and I can do stretch tests on the fabric for you too if you need to know the elasticity so you can adjust your pattern to it! :grin:

[rose]

Wow, that's rather useful actually Miss, that knit stuff was always a pig to try and sew, not that I ever really sewed anything. At intermediate school some chick sewed her finger which for some reason is etched in my memory. Her name was Sheryl. But I can't remember if she was sewing knit fabric, probably not. 80's fabrics FTW 8) Hey has Chillicat had her 80's party thing yet? :-s