SQUATS

[vracula]

Box squats are great for explosive power, I read about the 1 1/2 squats in a book from the Library (that big building people used to go to before the internet).

Basically his method of repair was to prescribe 1/2 squats, go deep, come up half way then back down and then up all the way.

This doubled the work on the vastus medialis, balancing the patella tendon better, and reducing the jumpers knee. The depth does not give the jumping power you need, just prevents the onset of injury.

hmm so do you think it will be a good idea to still use the box squats for the xplosive power ,but throw in some deep squats for injury prevention?

[michaelk]

of course, at this time injury prevention is just that- prevention. I'm assuming you don't have jumpers knee and doing one and a halfs will help prevent this and the box jumps will provide your explosive power.

Now if you currently have an injury, thats a different story.

[vracula]

of course, at this time injury prevention is just that- prevention. I'm assuming you don't have jumpers knee and doing one and a halfs will help prevent this and the box jumps will provide your explosive power.

Now if you currently have an injury, that's a different story.

nope no injuries "yet",just finished solving my shin splint problem so im all about injury prevention.

[musclenz]

of course, at this time injury prevention is just that- prevention. I'm assuming you don't have jumpers knee and doing one and a halfs will help prevent this and the box jumps will provide your explosive power.

Now if you currently have an injury, thats a different story.

Michael, while I agree that box squats (not that I do them much) is a safer option where knee injuries are an issue & they build explosive power because of the action off the box , I still believe from a BBers point of view they do not target the quads but more the major squatting muscles- hips, glutes, lower back, and hamstrings. Much of the work done in squatting is by the hamstrings which are hip extensors & the glutes. This is obvious in most strong PLers by the size of these muscles.

Sure the Vastus or Teardrop is involved with knee action but its interesting to note in consideration of your reference to Charles Poliquin's study, that the theories of its action at the patella may in fact not be relevant. See this - Ref Wikipedia -

"Vastus medialis has been widely reported to be responsible for extending the leg the last 10%, however this commonly held claim has no basis, indeed there is a reasonable body of evidence to the contrary.[citation needed] The vasti instead appear to act largely in a co-ordinated manner throughout the control of knee extension.

Much has been made of the ability of the Vastus Medialis to translate the patella medially, however since approximately 70% of the contractile fibres attach directly to the common extensor tendon (which then inserts centrally to the superior patella) the functional ability to achieve this goal may be overstated, and is likely dwarfed by the bony congruence of the patella in the trochlea notch. Some authorities maintain there is a separate aspect to the Vastus Medialis muscle - the "Vastus Medialis Obliquus"[1] or more commonly the "VMO"[2] which is reported to have a more oblique or horizontal orientation to the bulk of the remainder of the muscle thereby disposing it to be better able to 'pull' the patella medially. Unfortunately careful inspection of many cadavers reveals that the fibres of the Vastus Medialis are largely parallel and there is no significant separate aspect of the contractile fibres fitting this description which would suggest it is time to lay this clinical myth to rest."

[Daniil]

Hi, I didn't want to make another thread so decided to ask here since my question is about Squats anyway.

So I have a weak heart, i.e. I can't do lots of reps. I feel bad after 5 sets of 12 reps. Sometimes I feel so bad that I go home. I decided to reduce number of reps and increase number of sets and weight. Previously I been doing 72.5 kg, now I do 10 sets of 7 reps with 80 kg. Felt good!

How good is that? Will my muscles keep growing? Because I'm not a powerlifter, I'm a bodybuilder and want to gain size, not strength. Thanks.

[musclenz]

Hi, I didn't want to make another thread so decided to ask here since my question is about Squats anyway.

So I have a weak heart, i.e. I can't do lots of reps. I feel bad after 5 sets of 12 reps. Sometimes I feel so bad that I go home. I decided to reduce number of reps and increase number of sets and weight. Previously I been doing 72.5 kg, now I do 10 sets of 7 reps with 80 kg. Felt good!

How good is that? Will my muscles keep growing? Because I'm not a powerlifter, I'm a bodybuilder and want to gain size, not strength. Thanks.

I think we have discussed your condition in other threads Mate. Obviously you need to be very careful with any activity you do that stresses the cardiovascular system. Although some peoples legs respond better in the 15 rep range there is still no substitute for low rep (6-8) heavy work to build muscle. I would think this would be the way to go with 1-2 mins between sets to allow for recovery. I guess it comes down to what you can best manage & with consultation with your Cardiologist as to what would be the best way to use resistance training in your exercise program.

[michaelk]

of course, at this time injury prevention is just that- prevention. I'm assuming you don't have jumpers knee and doing one and a halfs will help prevent this and the box jumps will provide your explosive power.

Now if you currently have an injury, thats a different story.

Michael, while I agree that box squats (not that I do them much) is a safer option where knee injuries are an issue & they build explosive power because of the action off the box , I still believe from a BBers point of view they do not target the quads but more the major squatting muscles- hips, glutes, lower back, and hamstrings. Much of the work done in squatting is by the hamstrings which are hip extensors & the glutes. This is obvious in most strong PLers by the size of these muscles.

Sure the Vastus or Teardrop is involved with knee action but its interesting to note in consideration of your reference to Charles Poliquin's study, that the theories of its action at the patella may in fact not be relevant. See this - Ref Wikipedia -

"Vastus medialis has been widely reported to be responsible for extending the leg the last 10%, however this commonly held claim has no basis, indeed there is a reasonable body of evidence to the contrary.[citation needed] The vasti instead appear to act largely in a co-ordinated manner throughout the control of knee extension.

Much has been made of the ability of the Vastus Medialis to translate the patella medially, however since approximately 70% of the contractile fibres attach directly to the common extensor tendon (which then inserts centrally to the superior patella) the functional ability to achieve this goal may be overstated, and is likely dwarfed by the bony congruence of the patella in the trochlea notch. Some authorities maintain there is a separate aspect to the Vastus Medialis muscle - the "Vastus Medialis Obliquus"[1] or more commonly the "VMO"[2] which is reported to have a more oblique or horizontal orientation to the bulk of the remainder of the muscle thereby disposing it to be better able to 'pull' the patella medially. Unfortunately careful inspection of many cadavers reveals that the fibres of the Vastus Medialis are largely parallel and there is no significant separate aspect of the contractile fibres fitting this description which would suggest it is time to lay this clinical myth to rest."

I wouldn't recommend box jumps for rehab, they were for explosive power for a jumper, I've never jumped a box or any other structure for that matter in pursuit of leg mass. The one and a quarters were to maintain quad integrity through even muscle development and prevention of an imbalance.

My recent foray into knee rehab...of my own....suggested that there were fibres at the bottom of the Vast Med that did laterally effect the patella.

I also have never considered that the teardrop (VM) was effective in the final 10% of movement, but in the intial 10%, which is what I understood Poliquin to be also promoting. I makes sence considering its position in the knee that the leg at a highly bent position is going to require some pulley type action (as provided by the VM) to pull it around to straight, that is why when your knee is bent, the VM almost reaches around the knee to straighten the leg out. It initiates the straightening probably in the first 10% of the movement. Hence A2G squatters often have great tear drops ala Debenham (and big asses :wink: )

Hope this makes sence.

[michaelk]

of course, at this time injury prevention is just that- prevention. I'm assuming you don't have jumpers knee and doing one and a halfs will help prevent this and the box jumps will provide your explosive power.

Now if you currently have an injury, thats a different story.

Michael, while I agree that box squats (not that I do them much) is a safer option where knee injuries are an issue & they build explosive power because of the action off the box , I still believe from a BBers point of view they do not target the quads but more the major squatting muscles- hips, glutes, lower back, and hamstrings. Much of the work done in squatting is by the hamstrings which are hip extensors & the glutes. This is obvious in most strong PLers by the size of these muscles.

Sure the Vastus or Teardrop is involved with knee action but its interesting to note in consideration of your reference to Charles Poliquin's study, that the theories of its action at the patella may in fact not be relevant. See this - Ref Wikipedia -

"Vastus medialis has been widely reported to be responsible for extending the leg the last 10%, however this commonly held claim has no basis, indeed there is a reasonable body of evidence to the contrary.[citation needed] The vasti instead appear to act largely in a co-ordinated manner throughout the control of knee extension.

Much has been made of the ability of the Vastus Medialis to translate the patella medially, however since approximately 70% of the contractile fibres attach directly to the common extensor tendon (which then inserts centrally to the superior patella) the functional ability to achieve this goal may be overstated, and is likely dwarfed by the bony congruence of the patella in the trochlea notch. Some authorities maintain there is a separate aspect to the Vastus Medialis muscle - the "Vastus Medialis Obliquus"[1] or more commonly the "VMO"[2] which is reported to have a more oblique or horizontal orientation to the bulk of the remainder of the muscle thereby disposing it to be better able to 'pull' the patella medially. Unfortunately careful inspection of many cadavers reveals that the fibres of the Vastus Medialis are largely parallel and there is no significant separate aspect of the contractile fibres fitting this description which would suggest it is time to lay this clinical myth to rest."

I wouldn't recommend box jumps for rehab, they were for explosive power for a jumper, I've never jumped a box or any other structure for that matter in pursuit of leg mass. The one and a quarters were to maintain quad integrity through even muscle development and prevention of an imbalance.

My recent foray into knee rehab...of my own....suggested that there were fibres at the bottom of the Vast Med that did laterally effect the patella.

I also have never considered that the teardrop (VM) was effective in the final 10% of movement, but in the intial 10%, which is what I understood Poliquin to be also promoting. I makes sence considering its position in the knee that the leg at a highly bent position is going to require some pulley type action (as provided by the VM) to pull it around to straight, that is why when your knee is bent, the VM almost reaches around the knee to straighten the leg out. It initiates the straightening probably in the first 10% of the movement. Hence A2G squatters often have great tear drops ala Debenham (and big asses :wink: )

Hope this makes sence.

[rose]

"Squatting big is as much an art as it is a science"

On the money 8)

what you see is what you train

Similar re rear delts and supraspinatus.

[musclenz]

of course, at this time injury prevention is just that- prevention. I'm assuming you don't have jumpers knee and doing one and a halfs will help prevent this and the box jumps will provide your explosive power.

Now if you currently have an injury, thats a different story.

Michael, while I agree that box squats (not that I do them much) is a safer option where knee injuries are an issue & they build explosive power because of the action off the box , I still believe from a BBers point of view they do not target the quads but more the major squatting muscles- hips, glutes, lower back, and hamstrings. Much of the work done in squatting is by the hamstrings which are hip extensors & the glutes. This is obvious in most strong PLers by the size of these muscles.

Sure the Vastus or Teardrop is involved with knee action but its interesting to note in consideration of your reference to Charles Poliquin's study, that the theories of its action at the patella may in fact not be relevant. See this - Ref Wikipedia -

"Vastus medialis has been widely reported to be responsible for extending the leg the last 10%, however this commonly held claim has no basis, indeed there is a reasonable body of evidence to the contrary.[citation needed] The vasti instead appear to act largely in a co-ordinated manner throughout the control of knee extension.

Much has been made of the ability of the Vastus Medialis to translate the patella medially, however since approximately 70% of the contractile fibres attach directly to the common extensor tendon (which then inserts centrally to the superior patella) the functional ability to achieve this goal may be overstated, and is likely dwarfed by the bony congruence of the patella in the trochlea notch. Some authorities maintain there is a separate aspect to the Vastus Medialis muscle - the "Vastus Medialis Obliquus"[1] or more commonly the "VMO"[2] which is reported to have a more oblique or horizontal orientation to the bulk of the remainder of the muscle thereby disposing it to be better able to 'pull' the patella medially. Unfortunately careful inspection of many cadavers reveals that the fibres of the Vastus Medialis are largely parallel and there is no significant separate aspect of the contractile fibres fitting this description which would suggest it is time to lay this clinical myth to rest."

I wouldn't recommend box jumps for rehab, they were for explosive power for a jumper, I've never jumped a box or any other structure for that matter in pursuit of leg mass. The one and a quarters were to maintain quad integrity through even muscle development and prevention of an imbalance.

sMy recent foray into knee rehab...of my own....suggested that there were fibres at the bottom of the Vast Med that did laterally effect the patella.

I also have never considered that the teardrop (VM) was effective in the final 10% of movement, but in the intial 10%, which is what I undertood Poliquin to be also promoting. I makes sence considering its position in the knee that the leg at a highly bent position is going to require some pulley type action (as provided by the VM) to pull it around to straight, that is why when your knee is bent, the VM almost reaches around the knee to straighten the leg out. It initiates the straightening probably in the first 10% of the movement. Hence A2G squatters often have great tear drops ala Debenham (and big asses :wink: ).

Nice to see what you have discovered in practice is what is presently accepted in theory.. It seems pretty logical even to someone with my limited knowkledge of muscular skeletal anatomy. Nicely put Mike & yeah your namesake is working on his fat ass :pfft:

[big MAC]

So what do you recommend for glutes an hammies? I'm an (a2g) squatter an Im looking to step it up from 180? :twisted:

In addition to SLDL as mentioned above, I'd cycle in parallel box squatting for 5-8 reps with a lower bar set up. Possibly even do them same day as ATG squats.

That's what I did, and it proved beneficial for my ATG squat as well.

[Specter]

was doing 100kg ass kissing ground deep squats this morning...threw my lower back a little during my 3rd set of 10reps..ouch....stopped immediately...pissed off now... :roll:

[ohjoshua]

was doing 100kg ass kissing ground deep squats this morning...threw my lower back a little during my 3rd set of 10reps..ouch....stopped immediately...pissed off now... :roll:

Alot of people dont have the flexability to maintain the curve of their lower back while doing ATG squats.

[musclenz]

was doing 100kg ass kissing ground deep squats this morning...threw my lower back a little during my 3rd set of 10reps..ouch....stopped immediately...pissed off now... :roll:

Alot of people dont have the flexability to maintain the curve of their lower back while doing ATG squats.

This is very true. You can't expect to be doing ATG squats with your parallel weight. You may need to reduce it until you are comfortable & flexible enough down there. You don't want to bounce up at the bottom either. Should be a controlled movement. A thin 5kg plate might help raise the heels up to assist while getting form right.

[InZane]

was doing 100kg ass kissing ground deep squats this morning...threw my lower back a little during my 3rd set of 10reps..ouch....stopped immediately...pissed off now... :roll:

If you're not already doing it then incorporate deads into your routine. They will help with developing the lower back stabilisers.

Also, elevating the heals via a couple of small plates can help certain people.

=iZ.

[tonyb]

Damn this thread! I got all amped up about ATG's (cause I only do to parallel) So what did dumb me do? Tried it out with a lighter weight, warmed up and thought this is ok, so I loaded up the weight (the same weight I do parallels) Got 5 reps in, then on the 6th me legs failed me at the bottom. Had to offload behind my neck on to the safety bars. Totally faked my back, off work & everything, can hardly walk. There goes my training for a while. So if your new to ATG's, take it easy or you'll end up like me on the couch.

[musclenz]

Damn this thread! I got all amped up about ATG's (cause I only do to parallel) So what did dumb me do? Tried it out with a lighter weight, warmed up and thought this is ok, so I loaded up the weight (the same weight I do parallels) Got 5 reps in, then on the 6th me legs failed me at the bottom. Had to offload behind my neck on to the safety bars. Totally faked my back, off work & everything, can hardly walk. There goes my training for a while. So if your new to ATG's, take it easy or you'll end up like me on the couch.

Oh Shit. Man thatsd bad luck. How did you feel on the first reps at parallel weight? Must have just lost your back arch as you got tired. Hope you come right mate. Get some physio or Chiro

[Bazza]

Bummer Tonyb! rest up and get well...nothing quite as nasty as those lower back problems....

[tonyb]

I'm recovering quite well. I went straight to the chiropractor after the injury and they saw me straight away. Yesterday I was struggling to get off the couch but today I can sit up & down without my back locking. Should be back in the gym next week doing light cardio I reckon.

Yeah the first few reps felt really good, then I started losing my balance a little, then like you say, I lost the correct posture and had no power to get back up.

[beast88]

If you don't go arse to the grass or at least below parallel, you're not doing a squat. You're doing a partial and not working all the muscles and internal bits you should be. So what's the point? I'd rather squat less weight properly than more weight like a clown.

Partial != full range of motion/good form. Isn't the essence of strength training and bodybuilding about doing full range of motion with good form?

It's like going fast in a straight line. Anyone can twist the throttle. But you find out who has teh skillz when you get to the twisty stuff.

Learn to squat properly and you won't get sore knees. And learn how to get past sticking points.

2cents.

Just wondering do you ride bikes? You get the most rush out of the twisties ay haha

[beast88]

It really depends on the weight i start light and do full range of motion but as i start to increase the weight i some times feel that if i go to low i might either get stuck or collapse, so i think i do all sorts full, parallel and partial as i increase the weight.

[xen]

Sorry haven't read all the preceding posts, so forgive me if I repeat something. I squat as far down as possible. I achieve this with a shoulder width stance and by pushing my knees out laterally as far as they can go. The benefits of this is a deeper squat, a more vertical back position and strong activation of the inner thigh muscles. This mean I can actually lift more weight as there is another set of leg muscles involved in the movement. I've also read that the knee is strongest at its extremes, i.e. fully streched and fully flexed. This implies that partial squats are risky and can lead to injury.

[xen]

BTW for you guys who are switching to A2G, make sure to lighten up on the weight, you'll probably find that your hips are too weak to drive out of the hole with your normal wieght. Also you need to have very flexible hamstrings, to avoid what's called "butt wink", i.e. your lower back swinging from the correct concave position to convex. While I've read this is not necessarily that unsafe, I've always tried to avoid it, so stretch frequently!

[musclenz]

Good points already made Zen. Agree with you on the Sumo squat position but for overall development in a BBer sense you need to mix it up with a closer stance & toes in/out to hit the outside head & the Rectus.

[Bazza]

Such a fascinating subject the squat...when you read this thread and the intricacies of it, it is one of the most technically difficult exercises to master correctly. So many different levers in place when compared to a standard bench type training exercises. More than most exercises form is just so critical in getting it right....and definitely not wanting to get it wrong! :doh: