training split problems

[startinfromscratch]

hi all, my current system is a 4 day split, which i just cycle. i train 5 times a week, so week to week the actual days vary. My rest days are wed and sun, i only miss trainings occasionally due to work. the 4 days atm are

legs

chest/tris

back/bis

shoulders/abs

though i do a little ab work on leg day aswell, between sets.

my problem is that on back day, i find that by the time ive done my back sets, my bis are already weakened and i cant go 100% with them. and if i do bis first, i end up with the opposite prob, but worse because i always get a massive forearm pump after bis, and because my grip strength isnt great, my forarms/ grip fail before my back muscles. once the chaos of xmas is over and the n.y is in, i want to have a more organised approach, do my first proper 'bulk', complete with journal and pics.

but i am going to change to a 5-day split, and buy some straps to maximise my training. this is the 5 days i am thinking:

legs, chest/tri, back, shoulders/traps, abs and bis

thoughts on this proposed split, or any of it? :pray:

[weener lad]

You really just have to find what works for you and your body type. There are many opinions on what body parts should be trained together and not.

Personally my shoulders are dominate so I use the following split.

Mon: Chest/Shoulders

Tue: Legs

Wed: Rest

Thurs: Back

Fri: Bis/tris

Sat & Sun rest most of the time but will split legs in the new year and be doing them again on Sat. When it comes to abs I'm a big fan of doing them randomly and often.

Good luck with your training

[startinfromscratch]

oh i guess i shoulda noted that, im an ecto(not extreme), 5 ft 10, 73kg, bf 13%ish, and my 'most wanted to improve' part is my delts/traps, so i hit em hard!

cheers wl!

others??

[genetic freek]

hi all, my current system is a 4 day split, which i just cycle. i train 5 times a week, so week to week the actual days vary. My rest days are wed and sun, i only miss trainings occasionally due to work. the 4 days atm are

legs

chest/tris

back/bis

shoulders/abs

though i do a little ab work on leg day aswell, between sets.

my problem is that on back day, i find that by the time ive done my back sets, my bis are already weakened and i cant go 100% with them. and if i do bis first, i end up with the opposite prob, but worse because i always get a massive forearm pump after bis, and because my grip strength isnt great, my forarms/ grip fail before my back muscles. once the chaos of xmas is over and the n.y is in, i want to have a more organised approach, do my first proper 'bulk', complete with journal and pics.

but i am going to change to a 5-day split, and buy some straps to maximise my training. this is the 5 days i am thinking:

legs, chest/tri, back, shoulders/traps, abs and bis

thoughts on this proposed split, or any of it? :pray:

IMO if you are really ecto you should train 3-4times a week max

mon-tue rest Thurs-fri.

Shoulders & Tris

Legs

rest

chest & bis

Back

Stick to compound movements!

Try keep workouts to 45min

Last of all eat eat eat

[Small]

once the chaos of xmas is over and the n.y is in, i want to have a more organised approach, do my first proper 'bulk', complete with journal and pics.

i am going to do this also!

my problem is that on back day, i find that by the time ive done my back sets, my bis are already weakened and i cant go 100% with them.

why dont u superset

i.e wat do you do 5exercises back, 4exercises bis?

then do

1ex back S/S 1 ex bis

1ex back S/S 1 ex bis

1 ex heaviest hardest back

1ex bis S/S 1 ex back

1ex back S/S 1 es bis

or a mixture to hit/double up on what you can train

tbh i find w back/bi split you dont need to train bis as hard as they get trained indirectly anyway-so i just do 5-6ex hitting back, last ex is usually a rep out and then two max bi exercises thrown in somewhere. works good

[agent86]

I agree with genetic freak. A 4 day split will give you 3 days to rest and grow.

If your Biceps are weak after back then put Biceps with chest or shoulders. I have tried various splits and here is my current. Tues -Chest,hams Weds -Back,Biceps Fri -Shoulders,Triceps Saturday- Legs,calves.

Legs are a big day so I have 2 days off after them.

Don't superset, do basic and heavy.Workout 45 mins to one hour max.

The advantage of doing Biceps with Back is you don't overtrain biceps as you will use them indirectly on back day. The same applies to Triceps which are used when doing chest and shoulders. However as you have discovered you can be weak on biceps if they are trained after Back.

Genetic Freak's routine looks good so maybe give that a try first. Train heavy,dont overtrain,eat heaps and rest.

[genetic freek]

I agree with genetic freak. A 4 day split will give you 3 days to rest and grow.

If your Biceps are weak after back then put Biceps with chest or shoulders. I have tried various splits and here is my current. Tues -Chest,hams Weds -Back,Biceps Fri -Shoulders,Triceps Saturday- Legs,calves.

Legs are a big day so I have 2 days off after them.

Don't superset, do basic and heavy.Workout 45 mins to one hour max.

The advantage of doing Biceps with Back is you don't overtrain biceps as you will use them indirectly on back day. The same applies to Triceps which are used when doing chest and shoulders. However as you have discovered you can be weak on biceps if they are trained after Back.

Genetic Freak's routine looks good so maybe give that a try first. Train heavy,dont overtrain,eat heaps and rest.

True,

I have been training back and bis on same day but found that after a big back work out i am exhausted and need food. I also find that yes you are not as strong on bis but keep in mind that they are pre fatigued meaning that just because you cant use huge weights does not necessarily mean that you can't make them grow.

Also as far a diet goes don't be afraid to eat fatty foods etc. others may tell you otherwise but you really need the calories mate. I started off eating clean etc for a while but then just went all out eating everything in sight. started at 67kg now 109kg. Worked for me I am ecto also

[startinfromscratch]

haha yes to the eating, i saw a nutritionist about my eating, because its clean as, and she told me to have some nutrient dense food sometimes! (wendys burger :grin: )

so i have loosened a little on my eating.

i have tried supersetting my bi/back exes, and i liked it but it worsens my poor grip issues on stuff like seated rows/ pulldowns :cry:

although i try to vary things, this would be a normal sorta day. warmups not included. aim for rep range 6-10

4 sets deads

3 sets w/grip pullups

3 sets seated mach. rows

3 sets one arm db rows

6 sets curls (varies preacher/hammer/machine)

1 dropset mach. curls to finish

rememba ive only ben lifting a few months :pfft:

body is slowly changing shape though! :dancing: :dancing:

[genetic freek]

haha yes to the eating, i saw a nutritionist about my eating, because its clean as, and she told me to have some nutrient dense food sometimes! (wendys burger :grin: )

so i have loosened a little on my eating.

i have tried supersetting my bi/back exes, and i liked it but it worsens my poor grip issues on stuff like seated rows/ pulldowns :cry:

although i try to vary things, this would be a normal sorta day. warmups not included. aim for rep range 6-10

4 sets deads

3 sets w/grip pullups

3 sets seated mach. rows

3 sets one arm db rows

6 sets curls (varies preacher/hammer/machine)

1 dropset mach. curls to finish

rememba ive only ben lifting a few months :pfft:

body is slowly changing shape though! :dancing: :dancing:

Looks ok.

First of all I would grab some straps for back:

Dead lifts. I would do a warm up then pyrimid up the weight each set.

Your last set should be hard core 8reps - can not do another rep if your life depended on it! (oh and no straps for this one)

Then pull ups

Then to finish I would do a rowing movement. Try heavy bent over rows palms up.

Do these three at maximum intensity and the last thing on your mind will be doing another exercise lol

[startinfromscratch]

Looks ok.

First of all I would grab some straps for back:

Dead lifts. I would do a warm up then pyrimid up the weight each set.

Your last set should be hard core 8reps - can not do another rep if your life depended on it! (oh and no straps for this one)

Then pull ups

Then to finish I would do a rowing movement. Try heavy bent over rows palms up.

Do these three at maximum intensity and the last thing on your mind will be doing another exercise lol

[genetic freek]

but why no straps for the last set of deads? :shock:

[soundsgood]

Fully disagree mate

Use Straps with ALL your Deads so you can go heavy as you can.

You can work on your grip in other exercises

[genetic freek]

Fully disagree mate

Use Straps with ALL your Deads so you can go heavy as you can.

You can work on your grip in other exercises

Maybe its just me but I got small as forarms and I do my deads raw.

Never have a prob with grip. Also find that sometimes with straps can put pressure on ur biceps etc.

[soundsgood]

Deadlifts being a compound exercise you want to go as hard as poss on them IMHO

I just found that once I started deadlifting sets over 160kg without straps my fingers were giving way way before I had maxed my core out so I was doing much less reps than I could have.

I use those Versagrip straps and they are fantastic, still work on my grip with barbell shurgs etc. Never had a prob with sore biceps or anything.

All credit to you if you can dead raw though mate! :grin:

[genetic freek]

Deadlifts being a compound exercise you want to go as hard as poss on them IMHO

I just found that once I started deadlifting sets over 160kg without straps my fingers were giving way way before I had maxed my core out so I was doing much less reps than I could have.

I use those Versagrip straps and they are fantastic, still work on my grip with barbell shurgs etc. Never had a prob with sore biceps or anything.

All credit to you if you can dead raw though mate! :grin:

Have you tried chalk. Works wonders bro

[Flamer]

No straps for deads man!! Straps for stiff legs or cable rows, but never for deadlifts. Grip strength is really important.

[Varven]

No straps for deads man!! Straps for stiff legs or cable rows, but never for deadlifts. Grip strength is really important.

This argument is getting side tracked...

If you find biceps too buggered to train after back, easy, stick them with chest or shoulder day.

Back to straps:

If you find you are failing on any excercises for back because of lack of grip, USE STRAPS!!!

Why would you sacrifice gaining muscle on your back cause of your grip?

Straps are means to an end.

you are not a powerlifter or strong man, so grip SHOULD not dictate what work work you do.

You want to look good, so use straps... having a strong grip doesnt make you "look good".

But using the straps to move some massive f#$g weight will make you look good...

so once again USE THE STRAPS!

Unless youre training powerlifting, which it doesnt look like.

rant over.

[Varven]

Straps used properly WILL NOT strain your biceps, its actually vice versa.

I know quite a few who have torn their biceps without straps when using a over/under grip and going super heavy for reps on deadlifts of rack deadlifts... When you get to the stage taht you are moving 2x - 3x your bodyweight for reps, Id start using straps with an overhand grap.. unless you're a PL competitor caveat.

[startinfromscratch]

bought some straps today, just basic ones. I am going to try g.f's reccommended excercises next back day, and see if using the straps will save my gripstrength so that i can keep my existing split. I agree with varven in that id be wasting my effort doing sets of deads where my back never fails because my grip fails first. But i will try and get some grip strengthening in there at some point. If i still have issues i will definitley experiment with the splits you guys have suggested and see what happens!

Cheers guys/gals! :salute:

[modandm]

tbh think ur reigeme sounds pretty strong dude

keep at it the results will come. doesnt happen overnight.

if you dom't feel like the results are coming the 1st place to look for improvement is the nutrition.

ectos like us really struggle and imho burgers are really not the answer. Keep it clean but get on the mass gainer and creatine. if you want results to come faster you really need the supplements ay.

1 shake of mass gainer with whole milk is 500 cals so 2 or 3 a day and your getting all the growth fuel you need. keep the rest of the diet clean and eat plenty of pasta and mice. spagetti bol ftw.

I got huge gains within 3 months put on 4kgs all muscle \:D/

[soundsgood]

keep the rest of the diet clean and eat plenty of pasta and mice

\:D/

:shock: so thats the secret to getting huge!

[I try]

Genetic freek's 4 day split is best, that 4 day split is very popular as each body-part is trained separately and once only in a week, lots of rest days 4 ectos and theres not much need for cardio if you're eating right. Go BugerFuel burger rather than Wendys for a cheat meal, fuckin YUM!

For interests sake: Lee Haney subscribes chicken, red meat & fish as protein sources for Ectos as we respond better (better gains) from these rather than whey protein, eggs or milk. Iteresting :think:

[Laver]

My thoughts.

The reason you do bicep and back on the same day is because back complements bicep training. Otherwise you end up hitting your biceps on two sessions in your cycle your back day and wherever you decide to put your bicep day. If you want to hit your biceps twice in your 4 day cycle, split them, otherwise leave it as it is.

Also - when you go to do your specific bicep work, there is no issue that they're not 100%, they're not 100% because you've already worked them in the session, which is good, cos it's your bicep session. Use the specific bicep work to finish them off!

Regarding straps,

Firstly - use chalk. Then, use hook grip, because you can, then you won't need straps. If your hook grip becomes not strong enough, then use straps (this won't happen). Under over grip is also good, again use chalk.

I think the argument for and against straps can be paralleled to that of use strict or lose form. Something along the lines of "Pro's use 'bad' form to make the set harder; to get in those last couple reps, where as newbies use 'bad' form to make the exercise easier, so they don't have to work as hard"

The same applies to straps, grip strength should not be neglected, however use straps if you need them to work your muscles as hard as you can (realistically this shouldn't be a problem with deads - other back exercises are different). Don't use them just so you can be lazy or neglect your grip.

[Small]

bought some straps today, just basic ones. I am going to try g.f's reccommended excercises next back day

your g.f trains, is a bodybuilder?

[genetic freek]

bought some straps today, just basic ones. I am going to try g.f's reccommended excercises next back day

your g.f trains, is a bodybuilder?

LOL I knew this would happen G.F is me. Genetic freak