When cutting? High rep vs Low Rep

[boostinggtir]

Hey guys, I just wanted your thoughts on the best amount of repetitions when doing a cut.

Ok, so there's 15 - 30 Very high rep

Obviously great for losing fat, but are you burning muscle to?

Also maybe not so great for the natural guys?

Then there's 8 - 12

So more or less the same as your normal routine.

I know Jay Cutler always recommends this as he considers very high rep (15-30) to be muscle burning.

Then there's 3-8 reps

This is based on the theory that going super heavy with low reps will signal the muscle to stay put. This routine actually got rated number 1 on bodybuilding.com as the best routine wile cutting.

Me myself use very high rep at the moment 15-30. I think this is the norm, if Im not mistake for both natural an unnatural bodybuilding. I'm thinking next summer I might give the 8 - 12 reps routine a go, I guess it just make sense to me an I'll lose the body fat with just diet an cardio.

So what reps do you use for cutting?

[Marcus]

Anywhere from 5-20 reps. I train the same no matter if I'm trying to gain or lose weight. It's your diet that will make you lean. Just keep training hard & to failure.

[Optimass]

there is no significant evidence that categorically supports the theory that training specific rep ranges give you a targeted result.

Everyone has a different genetic make up, with varying dispursment of slow and fast twitch muscle fibre - different levels of hormone production - different nutritional requirements ... etc etc etc --- thats why it's recommended by most practised PTs/body building specialists that you experiment with different ranges to find what works with you.

As Marcus says - training to failure is the key to increasing size, but nothing happens without eating enough of the right calories.

Mark Stuart for example told me once that he never did any cardio when he qualified for his pro card - dropped completely with nutrition. Where as others at the top of the sport would automatically hit a treadmill ....

different strokes for different folks!

[aaa]

any where from 3 to 15. i tend to overtrain easily while cutting so i stop short of failure.

[soundsgood]

Im cutting at the moment and changed from medium reps (8-10) to high reps (20-25).

Im not gonna put on any muscle while cutting so the intention is to get as much blood flow as possible in my muscles with a massive pump.

Seems to be working very well for my conditioning, although I am definately concerned by the apparant muscle and strength loss :-s

[Android]

there is no significant evidence that categorically supports the theory that training specific rep ranges give you a targeted result.

Really? I'd beg to differ on that and say of course it gives targeted results or why would we even bother doing them, why not always just do 3 reps for instance for the rest of our lives...or wait...how about 11 reps...yeah 11 sounds good.

[Optimass]

there is no significant evidence that categorically supports the theory that training specific rep ranges give you a targeted result.

Really? I'd beg to differ on that and say of course it gives targeted results or why would we even bother doing them, why not always just do 3 reps for instance for the rest of our lives...or wait...how about 11 reps...yeah 11 sounds good.

show me the scientific proof? I have trained low reps pretty much consistantly for the last 8 years - pre and post contest.

Every year "the academics" come up with new "theory" but nothing concrete. Adfit put on a guest speaker soome months ago - I think she was involved with college of fitness (Over 20 years practical experience + masters etc etc) ... she put the question to industry leaders and couldn't come up with a tangible reply.

Show me where and I'll be a believer mate.

[Optimass]

Im cutting at the moment and changed from medium reps (8-10) to high reps (20-25).

Im not gonna put on any muscle while cutting so the intention is to get as much blood flow as possible in my muscles with a massive pump.

Seems to be working very well for my conditioning, although I am definately concerned by the apparant muscle and strength loss :-s

You're not going to put on muscle not because of the rep change, but because of the calorie drop - hense the drop in strength. Provided you were still eating enough to maintain your lean body mass you're not losing muscle. If you are not as "full" its because when you drop your carbs - asssuming this is how you are cutting - you don't have as much glycogen stored. You can try to compensate a bit by over hydrating but at the end of the day you are absolutely right - no point in trying to put on weight when you are cutting! (It has nothing to do with how many reps you do before failure)

Eat 2 Big Macs 6 times per day for two days and then do a heavy train - guarantee you'll gain the size you think you have lost in two days.

[Android]

If you are not as "full" its because when you drop your carbs - asssuming this is how you are cutting....

LOL

You can try to compensate a bit by over hydrating ....

I thought water was held in the muscle by carbs (loosely speaking you know ...2.7gms of water per 1gm of glucose), which apparently u said he was likely lacking, why tell him to drink more water then if he's lacking carbs?

[Optimass]

If you are not as "full" its because when you drop your carbs - asssuming this is how you are cutting....

LOL

You can try to compensate a bit by over hydrating ....

I thought water was held in the muscle by carbs (loosely speaking you know ...2.7gms of water per 1gm of glucose), which apparently u said he was likely lacking, why tell him to drink more water then if he's lacking carbs?

Can be manipulated using sodium .... and it's best to allow a high carb day through your weekly routine during depletion - it would be foolish to remain fully carb depleted for extended periods. (Unless you intend to compete flat as).

[Optimass]

In normal conditions the skeletal muscle glycogen concentration ranges from 1.5 grams to 2 grams per 100 grams of skeletal muscle tissue. A Swedish researcher BERGSTROM (1969) has shown that after a low carbohydrate diet that lasts for a period of 3 days accompanied with prolonged physical exercises/efforts one's skeletal muscle glycogen depots fall to a concentration of about 0.6 grams! After this limited 3 day period of carbohydrate depletion, a carbohydrate-rich diet was followed causing a new higher level of muscle glycogen content.

As you may see from figure number 1 above, marathon contestants also use the method of downloading and reloading the glycogen through diet manipulation before the marathon. As shown in the figure, exercise is gradually reduced during the week and the carbohydrate intake of the diet is increased for the last three days. (From Sherman, W.M., et al.: Effect of exercise-diet manipulation on muscle glycogen and its subsequent utilization during performance. Int. J. Sports Med., 2:114, 1981).

The consequences of this study have been of great utility for those endurance athletes whose performance is high and who need larger amounts of ready-to-use energy stored as glycogen. Furthermore, these results apply very well to bodybuilders too. You may be wondering why an increase in glycogen depots should be an aid for a bodybuilder during the show.

Here's the reason:

If the "depleting glycogen phase" has been done correctly, inducing a dramatic lowering of glycogen depots, it creates a "hunger state" for your muscles so that during the next "super compensation" phase they will store more glycogen than in normal conditions. In other words, they could store from 3.5 grams of glycogen to even 4 grams per 100 grams of skeletal muscle tissue. Don't forget that 1 gram of glycogen is linked with 2.7 grams of water. This means that if a bodybuilder has 45 kg (99 pounds) of Lean Muscular Tissue, (don't confuse Lean Muscular Tissue with Fat Free Mass; Lean muscular tissue is in other words "MUSCLE", instead Fat Free Mass consists of Lean Muscular Tissue + Bones + Water) he can increase his bodyweight about 4.86 kg (10.69 pounds) with glycogen and water during the carbohydrate loading phase.

The calculation goes like this:

1) Kg 45 x 10 = 450 hg

(Kg of skeletal muscle converted into hg; 1 kg equal 1000grams, 1 hg equal 100grams)

2) hg 450 x 4 = 1800 grams (total muscular glycogen content)

(the number 4 stands for the maximum glycogen content per 100 grams of muscle tissue)

3) 1800 grams x 2.7 = 4860 grams (final bodyweight achieved)

(2.7 is the grams of water linked to 1 gram of glycogen)

All this weight gained comes from glycogen and water. It's not water retention! Water retention means that water is being kept between the cells (in this case between the muscle cells) giving the muscles that smooth look that won't give you that ripped look that is so hard to reach after all the sacrifices that you made while preparing for competition. The water gained is all carried into the muscle cells because glycogen depots are located only inside and not outside the muscle and liver cells. That's why this loading phase makes the muscles appear bigger and fuller!

To cause this "supercompensation" it is very important to reload the right amount of carbs. The consumption of fewer carbohydrates than those needed won't lead to the desired effect and you may even notice that your muscles feel empty and become smaller. This is what usually happens to competitive bodybuilders! If this does happen, it would have been better NOT to have done the "depleting carb phase" at all.

I'm trying to locate another article that suggests that in the absence of carbs your body will store an extra water molecule where the glycogen molecule was. ... not sure where I put it ... may take some time.

[auck_builder]

more cardio.

less carbs.

same weight training

[agent86]

Why is it when someone starts dieting they think the laws of muscle building suddenly change. They do more cardio.less carbs and train high reps and wonder why they lose muscle.

Train the same when dieting as in off-season, heavy 6-10 reps. Do the minimum amount of cardio you need,if any, and lower calories. Doing high reps is an excuse to go light but will only result in muscle loss. It's true that you won't put on much muscle when dieting but to minimise muscle loss you must train as heavy as in the off season.

Carb cycling is a good idea for metabolism and phsychological reasons.

[auck_builder]

Why is it when someone starts dieting they think the laws of muscle building suddenly change. They do more cardio.less carbs and train high reps and wonder why they lose muscle.

Train the same when dieting as in off-season, heavy 6-10 reps. Do the minimum amount of cardio you need,if any, and lower calories. Doing high reps is an excuse to go light but will only result in muscle loss. It's true that you won't put on much muscle when dieting but to minimise muscle loss you must train as heavy as in the off season.

Carb cycling is a good idea for metabolism and phsychological reasons.

agree!

[Optimass]

what do you mean by phsychological reasons?

[agent86]

What do I mean by pyschological reasons?

When you are on a Low Carb regime for extended periods of time you feel tired but also mentally drained and you start craving for carbs. If you know that after 3 days of low carbs you are going to have a carb day you will be more likely to stay on the diet as you will be rewarded on the 4th day.

I usually start my diet with 2 higher calorie days a week, leg day of course and back day. Put your carb days on your weak body part training days. Don't go crazy just go back to maintenance level.

In the last month I cut back to one carb day on leg day.

It gives you something to look forward to and increases your ability to stick to the diet. Some people can't mentally relax for one day and then go back on the diet the next. I feel guilty about the carb day and in some ways imagine I am getting fatter but this is not the case. Knowing you will be happy one day a week is a lot better than thinking you won't be eating for 12 weeks.

Carb cycling also limits metabolic slowdown which becomes inevitable on long periods of low carbs.

There is always a balance in dieting You need to lower carbs but still have energy to train heavy. It's not much use being so depleted you can't train heavy. This is why I usually concentrate carbs before and after workouts.

On non training days then that can be a lower carb day than the rest.

The aim is to go to the gym in a mass building mindset even when dieting and not to think you am dieting now so ease off. Dieting is a big mental battle between cutting calories and still training heavy. It is hard to train heavy when you are tired but it has to happen.

I have seen many competitors bulk up and then when dieting starts do hours of cardio, cut back training to light weights, and compete a lot smaller than they need to. This is especially true of athletic competitors who don't think they need mass but they are still judged on muscularity.

[Optimass]

Yeah - I fell victim in my first two shows - too depleted. in two years between 1999 and 2001 my contest weight went up 9kg after finally getting it right. - used to compete every second year to ensure I get a full recovery of muscle and some good growth.

[poos_n_wees]

Why is it when someone starts dieting they think the laws of muscle building suddenly change. They do more cardio.less carbs and train high reps and wonder why they lose muscle.

Train the same when dieting as in off-season, heavy 6-10 reps. Do the minimum amount of cardio you need,if any, and lower calories. Doing high reps is an excuse to go light but will only result in muscle loss. It's true that you won't put on much muscle when dieting but to minimise muscle loss you must train as heavy as in the off season.

Carb cycling is a good idea for metabolism and phsychological reasons.

Nice post

For cutting - anything between 3-10 reps. Heavy compounds are usually 3x5 or 3x3, trying to stay as close to my off season lifts as possible.

My theoriez is that you want to maintain as much weight on the bar as possible when dieting. So you wouldn't lower the weight and do reps for Africa - you'd lower the overall training volume.

[nate225]

I'd have to agree with Auck' & Agent on this one.

The weights / reps dont change (okay in the last two weeks your poundage may have to edge back a little, but nothing major), someone once said to me "you built muscle & kept muscle training that way, why change now".

Cardio is cardio, weights are weights....... dont confuse the two & you'll be right!

Nate

[Darwinstef]

Nice posts agent86

[Nato]

I agree with agent86 on the high, low carb day thing totally! Eat your way lean is my moto.

But totally disagree with your low rep big weight thing. I do 1000rep workouts 8 to 10 weeks out from comps, as many as 100rep sets. the best gains in muscle size and condition for me has been during this time. The only reson i train low reps in the off season is so my body does not get use to the high reps.

The only way i can lose muscle is to not eat enough protein.

More than one way to skin a cat an all that.

[Optimass]

I do 1000rep workouts 8 to 10 weeks out from comps, as many as 100rep sets. the best gains in muscle size and condition for me has been during this time. The only reson i train low reps in the off season is so my body does not get use to the high reps.

The only way i can lose muscle is to not eat enough protein.

More than one way to skin a cat an all that.

That was my point early on - diffrent rep ranges affect strength/endurance/power - not nessesarily reductions in body fat etc. I can imagine doing 1000 reps would get your heart pumping too Nato --- I feel sorry for your training partner OUCH! :cry:

[Android]

Does anyone care about strength over size for body-"building"?

I know someone will come-in and say you need strength to build size...but really if u do high-rep high intensity and get bigger from that then the strength point is totally moot.

Bob C said:

"It's not how much you can bench, it's what you look like you can bench that counts for bodybuilding".

[soundsgood]

Bob C said:

"It's not how much you can bench, it's what you look like you can bench that counts for bodybuilding".

:shock: OMG thats the best quote ever!

[Optimass]

Bob C said it best. Although I tend to monitor strength levels each week as you don't always see change in your physique every week. But at the end of the day its kind of redundant.