Election 08...

[two_phat]

You have got to be kidding, two phat, I work in education and Labour has nothing to offer and never has..at least not in my area :evil:

not at all. I also work in education and Labour has done a lot in education - the thought of national getting in and trying to enforce the reforms like they tried to in the early 90s is not a nice one...

[TheGus]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news ... d=10541172

[two_phat]

interesting article. Lets see what the electoral commitee says before we pass too much judgement on that.

[Varven]

This is what bugs me, as a nation why does N.Z. have NO GOALS or dreams ??

Surely as a nation we have some aspiration to succeede in life past winning the RWC ?

Every country has been through some sort of industrialisation. If they did not cause they have no resources, they smartened up, they opened their financial markets and allowed some de regulation to sustain economic growth.

The nature of labour laws, extreme regulation, and 100% desire to be clean and green (Im not saying we shouldnt, I'm just saying be logical about it), means there is no incentive for any economic growth.

By 2020 it is expected Kazakhstan will be more productive than N.Z.....

The problem with the political scene is the LIMITED availability of new blood.

Any new ideas are dismissed quickly as the people who vote so far belong to a demography where they knew no better and have no desire to change.

There is just no "new" generation with a passion and a drive to change things.

They need someone really motivated, with strong backing and open mindedness, not the petty minded bs you get.

Let's see what happens. ... rant over...

[sponge]

vote national - criminals get away with far too much and anything to strengthen punishments sounds marvellous

[weener lad]

My view (rant) :grin:

This all started after David Langes nuclear free speech (which was actually reference to warships not power.) We as a nation got on the PC bandwagon and never looked back. Then to rub salt in the wound we vote in a a bloody hippy to be our prime minister for the last 9 years.

This country needs somebody to pull our heads in a little, Labour and the Greens will not do this. Nor will they allow this country to develop economically to the point it should be at. (re: emissions trading scheme)

Sorry for the rant :oops:

[Varven]

Agreed bring in emissions trading scheme and allow tax benefits for carbon traders.

Next merge the f@#G NZX with the ASX and use a unified currency for AUS/NZ. its the only hope left.

[two_phat]

Deregulating the economy the amount ACT & National want to do it will not solve this countries problems one bit. It will increase social inequalities and gaps, and therefore have an increasingly negative effect in other social areas such as crime.

The steps that National & ACT will take towards privatizing the education sector will hinder any economic progress.

Does the fact that unemployment has been kept so low for the last 9 years act as a testament to the sustainability of our economy and that our economic leadership and policies, whilst not perfect, is at least working?

[Small]

continuation of weener lads rant/

is forgery (SS you can answer this) illegal? stealing someones intellectual property is, if it is trademarked, so is forgeing work (claiming it to be yours when in reality it is not) illegal?

the reason i ask:

in the debate last nite i heard both leaders got asked when was the last time they broke the law:

1. mr keys; when he was young and ?careless driving or something

2. mr clark; when heshe was younger and got some speeding tickets

WELL

why does everyone conveniently forget that a few years ago HELEN CLARK signed a painting, that was going up for auction; claiming it to be her own, only later to be found out that it wasn't infact HER painting, instead someone else had done it and she conviently signed her name (even if it was to get higher bids)

This is a blatant act of misleading the public, false representation, and potentially breaking law (? not sure on that however)

Wat a joke-Helen Clark's election campaign based around Trust?!

Trust my arse-Helen, you and your mole deserve the boot.

[two_phat]

and John Key has been completely honest and ethical about his dealings with his shares has he?

Both leaders have been caught with their pants down before

[Laver]

and helen clark sped to the rugby? game!

[laurasaur]

pfft.. Rodney for president. I mean prime minister heheh

[weener lad]

Does the fact that unemployment has been kept so low for the last 9 years act as a testament to the sustainability of our economy and that our economic leadership and policies, whilst not perfect, is at least working?

Ummmmm no not at all really, the currents figures are a reflection of what has actually being happening over the last few years. You will also find that (even Helen admits it) unemployment figures are so low because labour pushed dole bludgers into courses funded by me (tax payer) paid them the doll still and called them employed. Its a bloody farce!

Agreed bring in emissions trading scheme and allow tax benefits for carbon traders.

Umm not what I meant sorry. The emissions trading scheme will kill this country, it will push out small industry (and large) and further reduce employment opportunities.

[Gym rat]

I have offend wondered that as wel we as a nation New Zealand don't have any goals or dreams compare to other countrys in the world do.That would very cool if there was unified currency between NZ and OZ more money in my wages which would be great plus you guys would agree with me on that.Considering the way that things are these days with stock markets through out the world in crises mode plus including the other stuff that we have to pay extra for the likes of food etc.

[bigdogbob]

Two phat as someone who feels you have been given a good deal by labour in eduation can u elaborate???

You must be part of the Wananga o Aotearoa..that's the only eduactional venture I can remember that flourished under labour in the guise to score the Maori vote and we know how that turned out.......computers for golf lol

:clap:

[two_phat]

haha no I haven't been involved in the Wananga at all - in fact I totally disagree with how this has been funded and its educational goals and aspirations.

I'm not saying by any means that Labours educational policies are perfect and even working in some areas, however the potential policies and reforms that national would put in, would completely ruin NZ education. Labour over the last 9 years has listened to the professionals in the education sector. The last national government tried to enforce policies that teachers were totally against. I can go on and describe the details if you want?

[weener lad]

The last national government tried to enforce policies that teachers were totally against. I can go on and describe the details if you want?

Please do tell :nod:

[two_phat]

Ok. Well in the early 90s there was a big push for change in the education system from the national government and the education minister at the time Lockwood Smith. I'll outline the two major things that they were trying to do and why this is bad.

1. Bulk funding. Currently schools are given an operating grant to fund their day to day things such as power, books, etc. Teachers salaries are not funded through this. National wanted to change this and increase the amount of money in the operating grant and then they would stop paying teachers - the schools would be paying them instead and get to choose how much they paid each teacher. In theory it doesn't sound like a bad idea, however this is basically performance pay. Which does not work in a profession like teaching. How do you judge a teachers performance? It is such an incredibly difficult thing to do when you include all the external factors which factor into a child's learning potential. The bums-on-seats funding allocation, coupled with the 'donations' that schools charge would leave some areas and schools struggling to compete with pay rates of 'richer' schools.

2. National Standards. National want to bring in national standards for every age group for reading and writing (which is a flow on from bulk funding - one way to determine performance). This seems all great - but in reality its not. First of all, teachers at the moment can tell you if your child is doing ok or not without a formal assessment. Secondly, more time assessing means less time teaching - and I already spend too much time assessing. Thirdly, national standards will force teachers to teach to a test or exam. Which will inhibit any child who does not fit into the exact mould of some formal assessment. Last of all, children know when they do not do well on a formal test or assessment, why force it on to those who are not going to achieve and reinforce the fact that they do not yet meet the standard?

Thats a brief version haha. Teachers status as professionals is essentially being stripped here as our autonomy is taken away to give people 'more choice'.

[Pseudonym]

That's a pretty convincing argument, two_phat.

[sponge]

Does the fact that unemployment has been kept so low for the last 9 years act as a testament to the sustainability of our economy and that our economic leadership and policies, whilst not perfect, is at least working?

unemployment figures are skewed; many of the unemployed (many) are shown to be 'students', attending courses etc etc but in fact a lot of this group don't actually attend them at all. just one example

if that makes sense

[sponge]

haha no I haven't been involved in the Wananga at all - in fact I totally disagree with how this has been funded and its educational goals and aspirations.

I'm not saying by any means that Labours educational policies are perfect and even working in some areas, however the potential policies and reforms that national would put in, would completely ruin NZ education. Labour over the last 9 years has listened to the professionals in the education sector. The last national government tried to enforce policies that teachers were totally against. I can go on and describe the details if you want?

but what about the increasing crime!

[two_phat]

I was replying specifically to education then but I can go to crime if you want...

Thats a good, but interesting point. Reported crime has risen. Can't remember where I read it (if you want me to find it I can) but there was some stats that basically showed that the increased % of emergency calls in relation to domestic violence had almost doubled in 3-4 years. Possibly because of societies change in attitude towards domestic violence.

You also have got to remember that a larger proportion of NZ is now between the ages of 17-25 because of the baby boom in the 90s. This is the ages where crime is committed through the most, so this also skews the number too.

The crime fueled through P has contributed hugely to stats and there is no government in the world that has effectively combated the drug and the crime that stems from it.

Lastly, NZ is a growing country. That means, that crime is always likely to be rising rather than dropping. The statistics that would be a better indicator, but are rarely shown, would be the crime rate per head.

[ohjoshua]

Deregulating the economy the amount ACT & National want to do it will not solve this countries problems one bit. It will increase social inequalities and gaps, and therefore have an increasingly negative effect in other social areas such as crime.

The steps that National & ACT will take towards privatizing the education sector will hinder any economic progress.

Does the fact that unemployment has been kept so low for the last 9 years act as a testament to the sustainability of our economy and that our economic leadership and policies, whilst not perfect, is at least working?

True if National is elected and government intervention is reduced there will be an increase in inequality. But will lead to an increases standard of living for all. Why do people care so much about how much they get compared to others? Even when they get more then they used to....

Labour encourages people not to work. I have many friends and assocaites who would like to work but dont want to affect their benefit.

Unemployment low? They have snazy new terms like sickness and invalids benefit.

[two_phat]

True if National is elected and government intervention is reduced there will be an increase in inequality. But will lead to an increases standard of living for all. Why do people care so much about how much they get compared to others? Even when they get more then they used to....

Labour encourages people not to work. I have many friends and assocaites who would like to work but dont want to affect their benefit.

Good point, I totally agree with you - the current system does not encourage people close to the threshold to work.

However I disagree that the standard of living will be increased. Education, Health care and other public services are likely to cost more because they will be receiving less government funding in order to implement their user pays policies. Some people just cannot afford to pay more to go see a doctor.

I think people tend to care more about being compared when the costs of things go up (i.e petrol, food). Then it tends to look like its not effecting some people as much as others.

[ohjoshua]

Good point, I totally agree with you - the current system does not encourage people close to the threshold to work.

However I disagree that the standard of living will be increased. Education, Health care and other public services are likely to cost more because they will be receiving less government funding in order to implement their user pays policies. Some people just cannot afford to pay more to go see a doctor.

That is the beauty of right wing. With the extra money earnt through reduced taxes indivduals can afford the real cost of goods/services.

Those that dont frequent the health care/education system shouldnt have to pay for others?

I think people tend to care more about being compared when the costs of things go up (i.e petrol, food). Then it tends to look like its not effecting some people as much as others.

Yes apples with apples.... all things remaining equal.... An indivdual will be able to afford more petrol, food etc with lower levels of government intervention.

But the rich will get considerbly richer the poor will only get marginaly richer (obviously including inflation).

Since with out thinking people compare themselves to others not to their past self they get angry.