off season bodybuilders-get massive or lean bulk

[NZPT]

What works best for you?

ive bulked to the max, just gone crazy with eating

doing a lean mass one this time to see if i can stay abs out but put on quality mass just to see if this works better and means my cut dusnt have to be so long.

experiences, talk about AAS or other compounds you use to to keep lean while doing a lean mass etc to if you do it that way.

keeping protein around 400g, carbs under 250g and fats just through essentials so 50g id say.

cardios on empty stomach

Just high dose test and some stan, maybe dbols and some post WO slin

thoughts, discuss experiences

[goinhard]

Your lean bulk is only around 3000 calories, i dont think you have enough.

Carbs may be too low at under 250 for optimal workouts, imo fat is definately too low, i think it would impact on testosterone production at that.

Im attempting to lean bulk at the moment on around 3500 calories which i expect to be upping to 4000 shortly, 300 protein, 350 carbs, 100 fat as a rough guideline at the mo. In an attempt to minimize fat gain im still avoiding any simple carbs bar some dextrose intra workout, i have 80-100 grams of carbs for breakfast, similar pre workout and and again post workout, any additional carbs are from vegetable sources or unintentional such as in a bit of tomato sauce. Also avoiding any single meal totaling over 1000 calories.

get up around 8-9am workout around midday, eat last intentional carb meal around 3-4pm, bed at 11pm.

Pre bed shake, with 40gm protein from dymatize 12 hour, have a shake on standby incase i wake up, if not its my breaky shake.

[NZPT]

CHANGE

[goinhard]

two bananas, 100 grams of dry oats and milk with my protein shake, easily 80-100grams of carbs. Plus 50 grams of protein and and 30 grams of fat.

Thats breakfast, and i could easily eat more, yet i try to keep under 1000 calories a meal. (fats from evoo or avocado oil or nuts, with 10 fish oil capsules)

You said thoughts at the end of your first post, i assumed you meant of your plan. I didnt realise you were coming off low carb, i have done so recently an found 200 grams of carbs nowhere near enough to maintain the frequency and intensity of training i desired, hence my increased intake.

My bad on the testosterone.

Edit: oh yeah, an all out bulk made me fat but gained strength at a rapid rate. Also i have read other posts of yours with info regarding steroids, i assumed that having a reasonable knowledge of them and from that post that you were atleast an intermediate lifter. 3000 calories really isnt much i know more than a few sub 80kg people that eat that and dont go gym and dont gain weight.

[NZPT]

thats a monster breakfast man! but if that works for you all good.

Yeah carbs are so individualized, i can run ketoic pretty sweet but others get grumpy and cant do anything if they drop carbs below 300g a day!

just out of interest whats an average day of eating for you?

and stats?

by the sounds of your breakfast you must be bulking :pfft:

[goinhard]

Most of the nutritional ebooks and articles ive read recommed breakfasts to be large, Dr Berardi's articles especially, with his 1000calorie bulkers omelette. Plus im usually starving by then.

Weight ever increasing after my cut, be around 84kg dehydrated in the mornings, 87ish by midday at 176cm, 5'9. Frick knows bodyfat 13-15% hard to judge from photos.

Ill go on a workout day

9am breakfast mentioned

11am premium mince, cup of diced veges, small amount pasta sauce. 100grams oats with splenda.

12am pre workout whey shake with water.

12:30 intra workout shake, dextrose and water

2: post workout shake, water. More oats, depends how depleted i am.

3. Large chicken breast, whatever veges

6. Trimmed steak, some bbq sauce.

8. chicken thighs, some more veges

10ish pre bed shake.

like 20 fish oil capsules and dashes of whatever oils, peanut butter in pre bed shake.

[Johnboy007]

Just high dose test and some stan, maybe dbols and some post WO slin

firstly im a nutritionist, when you are calculating your carbs i dont think your doing it right.

Sorry if this seems a little blunt but I have to say it's pretty damn funny that you are a nutritionist, don't think I would be using your services if I knew you were "using other means".

If someone was to walk in the door asking for a diet plan to get big, what do you tell them? :naughty:

[NZPT]

Sorry if this seems a little blunt but I have to say it's pretty damn funny that you are a nutritionist, don't think I would be using your services if I knew you were "using other means".

my personal choice, if you dont like it too bad. i reached my natural potential after years of hard training and competed in tested sports at the top level with out a drop of gear. Now i want to use alternative means to progress so sorry to be blunt, Get F*&%kd. Your saying you wouldnt listen to someone like ronnie colmans advice to get big? the pros are the biggest science experiments on the planet!

Do you use supplements? all the athletes endorsing the products that you most likely use are geared up so dont you feel silly buying that product knowing that they used?

dont be stupid, i dont sell shit to my clients nor do i recommend it. Do you drink alcohol?smoke weed? take party pills? i dont and dont care if you do thats your choice same deal.

the question was not anything related to that.

To answer the second part, i give them a calculated plan based on macronutrient breakdowns, proper releasing carbs and varied protein sources to meet the criteria for there sport event etc etc. Iv had natural guys put on 25kg of mass (some fat but that was the road THEY wanted to go down) in a quest for getting big (naturally) so i know what works and recomend supplements (legal) that WILL (as shown through clinical trials) work too. sound good enough jono??

[Johnboy007]

Dude, I have seen the documentry so I have heard all the justification.

You're right, it is your choice and I am not disputing that. Just telling it like I see it (or read it), much like your reply of which I must say I was expecting a more abbreviated Get F*&%kd.

No offense honestly

[weener lad]

To answer the second part, i give them a calculated plan based on macronutrient breakdowns, proper releasing carbs and varied protein sources to meet the criteria for there sport event etc etc. Iv had natural guys put on 25kg of mass (some fat but that was the road THEY wanted to go down)

Wouldn't normally get involved in this BUT, this claim can surely not be true 25 kg!!!! Over how many years????? My understanding is a natural athlete shouldn't expect more than 3kg a year lean muscle mass increase.

Please do tell how you get guys to put on 25kg of mass, other than throwing in allot of crap food :-s

[NZPT]

3 kg of mass in a year is very underestimaded. if you cant naturally put on 5 kg in a year then you need to seriously modify some variables.

you dont have to believe me, im not here trying to sell my busness but i will outline a few key components to how he acheved this results (which are at impressive and not normally this huge).

duration 10 months

4 weight trainings per week . he rotated mass, strength and higher rep schemes every 6 weeks. no one workout was the same every workout was planned to have an added component that the last didn't. never plateaued

he started with virtually nothing, and didnt really eat so increases in calories was don from only 300 increments to huge numbers (upto and over a kilo of meat and carbs a day)

cut back days and zero carb phases (brief) to drop the metabolism down then re peak it into growing again.

varying food and supplementation every two weeks, multiple sups

a few other techniques as weel but thats the jist of it. He did spend alot of money and was his main focus, no drinking etc just eat-train-work-rest

[biggurl27]

Impressive

[goinhard]

first photo take 1.5 years after starting training, so noob gains discounted. Yes i am small in the first photo but still a significant increase had been made by the time it was taken. I am 4kg heavier in the 2nd pic.

Therefore in one year without noob gains, and with a less than ideal diet i put on atleast 7kg of muscle. 25kg total gains (over a few years) is quite believable for me.

[NZPT]

Therefore in one year without noob gains, and with a less than ideal diet i put on atleast 7kg of muscle. 25kg total gains is quite believable for me.

id say more muscle then you think mate, your composition has completly changed so take into body fat changes your done awsume! nice work

and that proves my point exactly to, going from nothing and putting everything into it, time money and total dedication, and complete guidance and monitoring his results are achievable.

although this is completely fascinating i wanna here from the BB on there diets not talk about work haha

[ohjoshua]

Just high dose test and some stan, maybe dbols and some post WO slin

firstly im a nutritionist, when you are calculating your carbs i dont think your doing it right.

Sorry if this seems a little blunt but I have to say it's pretty damn funny that you are a nutritionist, don't think I would be using your services if I knew you were "using other means".

If someone was to walk in the door asking for a diet plan to get big, what do you tell them? :naughty:

Sorry to go back off topic....

But what is the difference between someone between some one who is on gear and some one who has naturally higher test levels/ more muscle fibers.

Giving advice - assuming that they both have the same level of knowledge/experience.

[Android]

The three main differences are:

• your naturally high testosterone levels may still not be as high as they are when on the gear

• your naturally high testosterone levels still show a naturally dropping curve as the day progresses, on gear it doesn't drop

• your naturally high testosterone levels wouldn't aromatase overnight because of 2. above, they've dropped by the end of the day. Whereas on gear it's still high while you sleep and unused testosterone has a chance to be converted to estrogen during the night

Oh, but what differences were you meaning sorry it was an incomplete question and I just compared the effects of Test levels in my comparison. Recovery? Appetite? Performance? Strength? Fat Deposits? You could compare a lot of things...

[goinhard]

I think he was arguing why does it matter that NZPT is on gear or not if he has the knowledge that will help clients.

[Android]

Doh!

Sorry man its dehydration day today before tomorrow's North Harbour show.

Agreed, everyone has advice and everyone tries to be genuinely helpful :-)

[NZPT]

me being on stuff doesn't take away from the fact i went natural and successfully did this for a number of years or my academic qualifications and knowledge to suggest programmes that work!

and android is write, a guy on gear has a number of things over a natural athlete the ones he listed and increases in recovery, metabolism, rate of protein synthesis, production and down regulation of other hormones the list goes on and can vary with the drug type administered!

what i want to here from is do competing BB find the lean bulk morte effective or getting fat and massive then cutting back.

Nice build and congrats on your first show andriod. so what works for you? your approach?

[Android]

Thanks NZPT, much appreciated.

I wish I could stay like this all year round, but it's just not possible to do that naturally so will be bulking up after a weeks break.

I have a gardening analogy you might like :-)

I can liken bulking-up to the "Hydroponics of Bodybuilding"...where you aim to flood yourself constantly with nutrients and stimulation to get maximum growth within minimum time. (Roids take that concept and multiply it by 1000). There's even a spooky close resemblance to us and plants with 'anabolic' meaning trying to stay in a nitrogen-positive state.

Perhaps a bodybuilder that is so in tune with his body that he can supply 'just enough' nutrients and not a calorie more and gain lean muscle mass can achieve a lean gain but it would have to be at least 3-5kg lean muscle per year to match someone who does bulk up.

[Luigi]

i cant lean bulk ... or find it very very hard to so i put on a bit of fat, hopefully not too much ! while the muscle grows underneath it 8)

[biomax]

Like everthing in life there is always a point of diminishing returns. From what I have read and my own experience, I found that going over 12% bodyfat don't let you really build anymore muscle than staying in the 10-12% range while eating highly nurtritous food/enough protein and training hard.

What I normally do, is to up my calorie intake (no brainer) and change my ratio of macro nutrients by adding in more carbs in my diet for better recovery and more intense workouts. I usually don't go on numbers except with my protein but when the fat gain is starting to show to much, I just cut back bit on the carbs and then take it from there again.

I normally do a lean bulk only once or twice a year when on cycle due to all the advandages listed earlier (better nutrient partitioning, higher nitrogen retention, better recovery etc). It's just so much easier to control all the variables when on and it gives a bit of leeway if you are on not totally on the money with your food.

I normally would use test (600mg) with either equipoise or tren and some proviron to keep the estrogen in check. Length 6-8wks

That worked for me.

Bio