DOMS discussion - your opinions please

[Nancy]

I know this has probably been discussed before although I didn't find a whole lot on it when I ran a search...

Just wondering what people's opinions are on it. Some of the issues I am interested in are:

Is it true that if you don't get it your workout wasn't effective in helping growth?

How bad do you get it, ie. how many days does it last for you and what seems to be the biggest factor for you in determining how bad you get it?

How many days do you let a body part recover before you work it out again and does this vary depending on how bad you got doms after your last work out?

Sorry for all the questions :roll: but i would like to know what the general consensus is and thought it would make for an interesting dicussion.

[jono]

I know this has probably been discussed before although I didn't find a whole lot on it when I ran a search...

Just wondering what people's opinions are on it. Some of the issues I am interested in are:

Is it true that if you don't get it your workout wasn't effective in helping growth?

How bad do you get it, ie. how many days does it last for you and what seems to be the biggest factor for you in determining how bad you get it?

How many days do you let a body part recover before you work it out again and does this vary depending on how bad you got doms after your last work out?

Sorry for all the questions :roll: but i would like to know what the general consensus is and thought it would make for an interesting dicussion.

doms is NOT A SIGN OF A GOOD WORKOUTS, OR GAINS.

i have had gains with and without

i personally train everything once a week.

normally i have doms for 4-5 or even 6 days after.

basically i always have at least one muscle group with it, ant any given time.. but like i said its not a thing you really need to worry about..

what really shows if your workout was worthwhile or not is:

next time you can do more weight/more reps. thats all that matters, not doms.

[carma]

IMO you will experience DOM the most when you begin weight training heavy or you haven't trained in a while, believe me i know, i trained chest on thursday and back yesterday and they are both bloody sore. Most people will experience it in the body part they trained the day or so before. Don't let it faze you if you don't get DOM all the time some people hardly ever do and still make good progress. If you do get DOM there is nothing like a good stretch to ease it.

[DumBelle]

I am of the belief that when DOMS don't occur after a workout, that this is a sign that your body is beginning to adapt to what your doing in your lifting. So to me I have always took that as a sign to up the anti or chop and change things a bit as I wish to progress quickly and challenge my body at MOST workouts at the gym in a substantial way.

IMO I never made as many gains when I did not have DOMS the day after and my progress stalled up a lot and was painfully slow. DOMS are a sign that you have pushed your body beyond what it normally is capable of. If you don't challenge your body a little bit more at each workout, then your training becomes stagnant and you plateau.

I have DOMS after EVERY workout and due to always making sure my workout is planned and structured around getting better each week and progressing. Even if it is a couple of reps more, or up in weight a slight amount. It generally takes 2 days for it to dissiptate for me. When new to training it took a little longer but now the periods have become shorter.

There are some situations where you can become progressively stronger without causing DOMS and growth is usually a slower rate than what it would be if you pushed yourself. For example, say a trainer tells you to only do a certain weight if you can pump out 3x12 sets/reps. This essentially means your selecting a lighter weight to make sure you can do this.

However, my philosophy has always been if I can do 3x12 of anything, that it's time to move up in weight or in reps. I always want to be really aiming for something between 10-12 reps and make sure that when I am getting to the stages where I can complete 3x12 reps of something that in the last few reps of the final set I am straining. If I reach 3x12 then at the next workout I put the weight UP or the reps! One or the other... and because have that attitude and am only getting to 3x12 once every few weeks in that case, I am constantly challenging myself.

[Growth]

I am of the belief that when DOMS don't occur after a workout, that this is a sign that your body is beginning to adapt to what your doing in your lifting.

I agree, i will rarely get DOMS if i my training program becomes stagnant, and always get it if i try a new exersice, or increase the weight alot over the last WO.

However i dont belive that DOMS is a must for good growth. IF you dont get DOMS then dont consider your workout a waste.

My DOMS will usually start the second day after the workout and last for around 4-5 days, a week at the very most. I find that if i do an eccentric style workout i will almost certainly get DOMS. Exercises where i concentrate on the eccentric portion like bench press, skullcrushers etc usually give DOMS, i rarely get DOMS in my shoulders, but all other muscle groups get it about the same.

I usually give the muscles a pre set recovery period and will train on schedule regardless of DOMS.

[DumBelle]

Heck I have DOMS in my shoulders today lol. :grin: :grin:

[deegee]

I agree with jono pretty much, I dont often get doms, only after a leg workout if i do usualy 2 days after and for about 3-4 days. I dont think that you need to worry if you dont suffer any soreness as long as you know you put everything into your workout.

I find a good indication of becoming stagnant not being able to increase weight or not growing.

[jono]

I agree with jono pretty much, I dont often get doms, only after a leg workout if i do usualy 2 days after and for about 3-4 days. I dont think that you need to worry if you dont suffer any soreness as long as you know you put everything into your workout.

I find a good indication of becoming stagnant not being able to increase weight or not growing.

exactly my point.. my goal when working out is to grow, not to get sore.. so each workout i add reps/weight.. i dont care if i get sore or not

[Pseudonym]

Great discussion! For me, DOMS (if I get it) peaks about 24-36 hours later.

I think that Dumbelle is right in the sense that I will often only get DOMS at the start of a new routine. As the weeks go on, the DOMS usually fades away, despite my workouts still having he same intensity - surely this HAS to mean something is adapting? I figure this is probably a good thing, so I make a point of taking a week off and changing my routine every so often.

However, like Jono says, I'm not sure how much significance DOMS has when it comes to growth. I have still grown without DOMS.

So in summary, if there is no DOMS, I don't worry. If DOMS happens, I view it as a good sign. It's a win-win situation!

[deegee]

So pseudo do you get doms in all muscles at some point or another when you train to a new routine. i hardly ever get any soreness in my back and at the moment it is probably my best developed area.

[Pseudonym]

Yep. It might vary a bit, depending on if a routine is structured to target a certain muscle... but usually all muscles get DOMS, and it stays for 2-5 days.

As for training while it's still sore, my routines are split so this is never a problem.

[DumBelle]

I hardly ever get soreness in my back (upper that is) at the moment, but then I dont workout until this week. I've had pain in the lower back with stiff legged deads once as I did far too much. My lower erector muscles went into spasm and the pain was quite bad the day after and the Doc gave me very strong NSAIDS which helped to relax the muscles along with a hot epsom salts bath. It was the week we had the floods in Feilding and I had tried to lift a large plastic tub of water from off the ground into my car and I really strained it and then did a back workout the day after like a loon instead of laying off for a week.

My upper back never seems hit though and tobe honest it is the area I'd like to make the most of. I thought getting into pull ups would help but I have not had doms there yet.

[DumBelle]

I did have doms that were delayed some 36 hours last year but this year since doing a lot of high reps interspersed with training it comes the day after and is over by another day after that.

I think the explanation to that would be that the slow twitch muscle runs low on glycogen sooner so DOMs would occur sooner whereas fast twitch takes a little longer to run low on the glycogen.

[Marcus]

If I wake up the next day & don't have DOMS then I'm not happy.

For me personally it's an accurate gauge of whether I trained hard enough or not.

[DumBelle]

Same here Marcus. I can even gauge by the severity of the DOMS now how much I have worked out. Whether I worked out harder than last time, or less efficiently than the last workout. LOL.

[deegee]

It would seem that some people get them and are more prone than others, however I would still not use muscle pain as a performance rating

[jono]

It would seem that some people get them and are more prone than others, however I would still not use muscle pain as a performance rating

i agree:

case in point

i could take a 5kg db and curl it till i could move my arm any more, and i would prolly get doms. does this mean it was effective ? NO.

saying your workout is more or less effiecent based on doms is laughable.

[DumBelle]

lol. What's the problem? I work out and DOMS occur. *shrugs*

If they don't, it I take it that I havn't challenged myself. That's what DOMS are...it means you have done something to your body that it isn't used to. Don't you want to do something your body isn't used to at each workout? Sometimes when people are stagnant in their progress for a long time this is what occurs. Then when they try something new like change the reps from low to high it get's them over a plateau and their body shows that in the way it can--aching.

Sometimes they are mild and at other times they are severe and I know about it, and yes, I feel I have accomplished something when they are severe--as long as I recover before the next workout and when I do the next workout I have become stronger. In fact I KNOW I've bloody worked hard when they are major. My strength has gone through the roof since my attittude has been like that. I never push myself to the point I risk injury, but when I go to the gym it's to workout and I just get down to it and make sure I make SOME improvement on what I did the last week. otherwise I may as well not go. Look at your sig jono. Madness is repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. What do you suppose that means? As long as I can keep on schedule and get my next workout done and be fully recovered for it, I couldnt care less what other folks opinion is because I have DOMS them the majority of the time.

You have decried DOMS at the top of the thread and of course have to defend that stance now but I can put my opinion here without you telling everybody it is funny can't I? I am sure only you find it laughable here.

I know MANY body builders that gauge their workouts on the way they feel the day after and the GROW.

The person is asking for opinions not arguments. I thought I'd put mine here. Let's have a bit of diversity of opinion can we without you denouncing anyone's that varies from yours.

If I have DOMS and use those to gauge my workout efforts its the way 'I' prefer to deal with my workouts and gauge them. If you dont that's your preference. I don't see the funny or "laughable" side of it.

[DumBelle]

It would seem that some people get them and are more prone than others, however I would still not use muscle pain as a performance rating

So what do you accredit DOMS to exactly? I suppose they just occur all by themselves without any stimulus whatsoever do they?

All I can say is when I have them, it just so happens that I happened to raise the bar a little bit in the next workout? (I.e. worked harder+did something different and challenged myself=effort on the day). It's the fact that people deny this is what DOMS are accredited to that I find laughable.

[deegee]

So what do you accredit DOMS to exactly? I suppose they just occur all by themselves without any stimulus whatsoever do they?

You dont seem to understand.

I accredit DOMS to muscle soreness funnily enough! It is something some people suffer from and not others, it can not be taken as a per say indication of effort put in or results gained. some people will get it through little activity some more. It is a personal tolerance to excerise and muscle response not an indication of effort or improvement.

therefore cannot be relied upon as an indicator of muscle growth/development which is what most of us blokes are after.

[Marcus]

Thats why I said FOR ME PERSONALLY. :roll:

Everyone is different as you all say. My aim is to progress in weights or reps every workout. If I do this then my muscles are entering into territory not entered before. Therefore I get DOMS. If I haven't pushed myself into this territory then I do not get DOMS.

I am at a stage now where I know my body very well. I know my limits & tolerances, & am working hard every workout to reach beyond them. Hence, for me DOMS is a accurate gauge of whether I have trained hard enough for that workout, and/or whether I need to mix things up a bit.

Legs are a prime example. Your legs can take a hell of a hammering & believe me I hammer my legs. If I don't get DOMS after legs then I know I haven't pushed them hard enough. For me, If I don't get sore legs then I'm not growing. I haven't trained hard enough.

I'm not saying any of your guys' workouts are not efficient. Because I'm well aware that everyone reacts differently to training. I'm just stating my opinion of what works for me & makes me grow.

[Growth]

But there are supplement out that are designed to reduce DOMS, so what if your workout that would have produced DOMS no longer does because you took a supplement that reduced it or stopped it completly, does that mean your workout wasnt good enough.

[Marcus]

No it doesn't. It just means i could not use DOMS as a gauge any more. The keyword here is gauge. You can enter in as many variables as you like.

[Nancy]

lol

Just been reading the thread and like I thought, there seems to be many different opinions out there. :nod:

Like I said, i'm just interested in opinions, I take everything anyone says on a forum with quite a large grain of salt!!! :wink:

When I researched it on the net, there seemed to be no conclusive outcome on the benefits/drawbacks of doms in bb. Hence the thread. I thought it would be interesting to see what you guys here thought. Thanks for your info, keep the discussion rolling... I'm keen to hear what you personally believe/experience, it doesn't matter what the next person thinks. 8)

[ExpensiveUrine]

So what do you accredit DOMS to exactly? I suppose they just occur all by themselves without any stimulus whatsoever do they?

If you're beginning to weight train with maximal loads you will get D.O.M.S. and they usually decrease within 5-7 days after that workout.

Eccentric contractions are known to produce greater tension than concentric tension in the muscle, hence resulting in greater heat production. This heat can damage functional components as well as structural in the muscle cell. If stress placed on the muscle is too severe the muscle becomes traumatized as a result of heavy loading.

The reason why D.O.M.S. occur 24 hours later is because it is believed that during those 24 hrs (or later) substances that are responsible for inflammation accumulate and turn on the nerve endings, as a result of muscle fiber injury.

Next time you get D.O.M.S. see where the pain is coming from. Most of the time its where the muscle and tendon meet. Since tendons aren't as flexible as muscle tissue they have a higher probability of an injury.

BTW, D.O.M.S. are not caused by lactic acid build up, it's caused by flow of calcium ions into the muscle cell. After some time these ions build up, causing various enzymes to catalyze the protein (muscle fiber breakdown). Soreness, during D.O.M.S, seems to be due to build up of dead tissue (protein that's been degraded).

Bottom line - D.O.M.S. isn't a necessity for training/growth. People who often get D.O.M.S train infrequently which causes less adaptation to occur. People who train frequently grow much better than those who don't.

So let me ask those people who think that D.O.M.S. is a must for training. When I get over soreness/stiffness and continue to train and NOT GET D.O.M.S. in my latter workouts, why do my muscles still grow?