1st tren cycle

[MiltonFriedman01]

On 4/6/2016 at 1:42 PM, bang_bang said:

I think my endocrine system is probably shot but I'll be doing a decent pct and taking the rest of the year off gear after this cycle to see to what extent I can recover.  

 

I would advice against this. I don't really understand the logic of PCT theory and as you are a competitive individual so the time off gear all together is going to negatively effect your performance especially with shorter esters which quickly lose effectiveness after your last dose. I would suggest that you either remain on a decent TRT dose year round (150-200mg) when not blasting as you have made the decision to use gear and ultimately you will almost certainly need Trt later in life, especially given you are currently using gear. 

 

Alternatively you could see an endocrinologist during your time off (asap) and given your age (guessing) you should receive medical Trt depending on the endo you see. I would suggest Reandron if you aren't keen on continuous injections every week or two year round. Once you get to know your endocrinologist it will become more clear whether it is worth explaining your gear usage to him or not as once they know it is a shit load less stressful and easier to explain a bad blood result from blasting which would otherwise lead to a change in dosage or additional tests being performed (often political option is a good gauge of their suitability for truthfulness, however isn't perfect). In addition they can perform prostate checks and monitor your heart for changes in rhythm, liver for changes in enzymes, kidneys for changes in filtration rate, etc. I am not trying to scare anyone, just pointing out that these are very useful if you don't want gear use to at least in someway effect your quality of life in your old age. 

 

Ultimately it is up to you, and regardless you should get prostate checks done :D

 

[Realtalk]

3 minutes ago, MiltonFriedman01 said:

 

I would advice against this. I don't really understand the logic of PCT theory and as you are a competitive individual the time of gear all together is going to negatively effect your performance especially with shorter esters which quickly lose effectiveness after your last dose. I would suggest that you either remain on a decent TRT dose year round (150-200mg) when not blasting as you have made the decision to use gear (be it right or wrong, legal or illegal, socially acceptable or not) and ultimately you will almost certainly need Trt later in life, especially given you are currently using gear. 

 

Alternatively you could see an endocrinologist during your time off (asap) and given your age (guessing) you should receive medical Trt depending on the endo you see. I would suggest Reandron if you aren't keen on continuous injections every week or two year round. Once you get to know your endocrinologist it will become more clear whether it is worth explaining your gear usage to him or not as once they know it is a shit load less stressful and easier to explain a bad blood result which would otherwise lead to a change in dosage or additional tests being performed (often political option is a good gauge of their suitability for truthfulness, however isn't perfect).

 

Ultimately it is up to you, and regardless you should get prostate checks done :D

 

 

What if you want to have children? Then pct makes total sense.

[MiltonFriedman01]

18 minutes ago, Realtalk said:

 

What if you want to have children? Then pct makes total sense.

 

You are making the assumption that it is impossible for those using gear to have children which is incorrect. Firstly their are numerous studies or case studies of body builders, those on nandrolone, and those on supra physiological doses of Testosterone impregnating their sexual partners. Just because sperm count decreases doesn't mean you can't have children, it is just less likely. In addition many of you would have seen the recent report on the news about the average sperm count of kiwi men decreasing due to diet and numerous lifestyle or environmental factors such as cellphone usage. 

 

You are also assuming that he can't get access to HCG which drastically increases sperm count, as does prolactin (well it promotes spermatogenesis, hence why prolactin increases temporarily after ejaculation which I just learnt about from a book on sexual behaviour :O ).

 

Also I would advise everyone who is considering using gear to get sperm stored, infact many of those who don't use gear should also consider it. I think it is fantastic that you bring this up also as the average number of births per female in most western countries is now well below the number required to sustain the population (Hence why so many western countries are inviting in immigrants, however that is a topic for another time) and both number of marriages and length of average marriage is drastically decreasing which is not good considering the family is the basic unit of society and promotes innovation/improvement over time. 

 

 I guess this comes down to why is it you are using gear and have you considered all the information/variables. Not saying don't use, just trying to suggest that people think more carefully about their person choices which could come back to kick you in the ass later in life.

 

Discuss it with an expert if you are concerned, I am not an endocrinologist so don't want anyone to take what I say as fact. I am sure your GP would be happy to talk to you in confidence about it without it being put on your medical record. 

[Realtalk]

Im not assuming anything. I'm saying with a pct and allowing your system to come back so to speak you will have more success with it. I know someone who has gotten their partner pregnant twice while running high amounts of aas. I myself have got a girl pregnant while doing the same. So I know it's possible. But I know more people who couldn't get their partner pregnant came off and then achieved that.

 

You are the one assuming a bunch of shit like that he will need trt later in life and that an endo will prescribe him testosterone. You make it sound really nice and easy but in reality it's not.

[MiltonFriedman01]

It is an inevitable outcome for a lot of men to be put on testosterone later in life, gear use increases the likelihood of this. I did assume that an endocrinologist would prescribe him Trt you are correct, however it would be reasonable likely given the probably total testosterone levels and free testosterone levels after he was to come off of a cycle of Tren and Test P. The possible negatives of having low T with slightly elevated Prolactin, Estrogen or progesterone at any point far outweigh the possible negatives of prescribed testosterone which should be consider prior to use of gear.

 

If you want children this is ultimately something you should also consider prior to using gear and take the necessary precautions prior to and while using. It is also important to keep in mind that we are talking about trends in the wider population and it is difficult to make any predictions on what mite happen if you are referring to what happened in a handful of cases. They may very well have conceived because they came off of gear as it would have eventually increased his fertility once his hormones and sperm count had recovered although this is not a guarantee and can take over a year to occur. Also every sexual encounter is a statistical event in its own right based on the fertility of those involved, sperm mobility, general probability of impregnation, etc so it is hard to know if they would have been successful or not if he had remained on gear and simply used HCG.  

 

It is his decision so I will leave it there.

[Wookie]

Introduce yourself at the next ACT Party function.

 

Also, Friedman is a boss.

 

 

 

 

[MiltonFriedman01]

23 minutes ago, Wookie said:

Introduce yourself at the next ACT Party function.

 

Also, Friedman is a boss.

 

 

 

 

I would honestly give up everything I own to meet him in person. I feel bad for not  discovering him earlier in my life when I was a young liberal fuckwit who understood nothing about economics, societal issues, or the corruption that always comes with government. 

 

I was skeptical  when David Seymour took over the act party however he has actually done a great job. It is unfortunate that the media establishment has such a strong grip on the population from the sense that you have so many people who believe this 2 party bullshit. That is not to say that I don't support national over labour because I do, but that the wider population has little to no idea of the policies or ideals of parties like Act or what was the libertarian party who were somewhat gutless in a dog eats dog environment. In politics not making a stand or at least pushing your ideals quickly results in the lose of public attention and therefore votes. It is very scary to think of the future New Zealand when you consider the indoctrination so many students receive at University. 

 

Out of curiosity where about's do you live? I am currently living in Nelson so am not sure if there is a strong act party membership here, although you would expect so given the number of religious people because as much as I dislike religion It does an amazing good job of shitting on the leftest narrative. Not many Asians here though, who seem to be strong act supporters, must be that extra 8 average IQ points they have over the average European. 

[Daz69]

12 hours ago, MiltonFriedman01 said:

 

I would advise against this. I don't really understand the logic of PCT theory and as you are a competitive individual so the time off gear all together is going to negatively effect your performance especially with shorter esters which quickly lose effectiveness after your last dose. I would suggest that you either remain on a decent TRT dose year round (150-200mg) when not blasting as you have made the decision to use gear and ultimately you will almost certainly need Trt later in life, especially given you are currently using gear. 

 

 

From a health perspective time off, or at least a sensible TRT dose would be advisable (125mg/week recently produced 30ng/dL) which is high normal and just within range...

I've not been an advocate of PCT, and have always preferred a taper off..

 

From what we know about AR (androgen receptor) there is an up-regulation of the AR but after sustained elevated testosterone levels some desensitization occurs which leads to a decrease in mRNA levels acting as a negative feedback loop. In several cases it was found that the AR content increased but the binding affinity for androgens decreased resulting in a net loss of testosterone utilization.

 

Essentially, after sucha long period of exposure the extra testosterone (above a certain point) becomes useless, whereas initially when first starting a cycle the extra free testosterone results in an almost linear dose-dependent effect curve. So, there's still benefit to an extended cycle (longer than 12 weeks) but the growth experienced isn't near what one expects an the beginning of a cycle... almost a sort of plateau effect. Leaving a 3 month gap or so between cycles can result in a stronger initial response to the androgens.

 

There are three acute complications that arise from AAS use, all affecting cardiovascular markers : Blood pressure, lipids and hematocrit

 

High blood pressure independent of AAS causes enlargement of the heart.  AAS gives a second hit.  The smooth muscle of the cardiovascular system is AR positive.  At high AAS concentration those muscle cells will hypertrophy. The job of the smooth muscle in the musculature is to pump rhythmically in a wave like form to assist the movement of blood.  With AAS induced hypertrophy of the smooth muscle that motion is compromised shifting more of the burden to the heart.

 

The problem is when this coincides with fibrosis in cardiovascular tissues. In this instance fibrosis is the deposition of less flexible collagen not just in the heart but in arteries and veins across the body. This seems to occur directly and indirectly as a result of AAS use, and some AAS are worse than others - eg Deca is notoriously bad. This extra collagen makes the cardiovascular tissues a bit 'stiffer' and increases the pressure (force) required by the heart to pump blood through the body (increases the 'load').

 

As a result, a rather less healthy (and structurally maladaptive) deposition of new muscle (LVH) will occur in an attempt to overcome the strain of the increasing load, and once past a certain size, it begins to reduce the efficiency of the heart as a pump. But the fibrosis also affects things like the passage of nerve impulses across the heart (often resulting in atrial fibrillation or heart block, for example), and interferes with the essential growth of new blood vessels (angiogenesis) to the new cardiac muscle, potentially starving these tissues of oxygen, resulting in pain (angina), necrosis and scarring. And the scarring makes the heart even more inflexible, and is thus basically a very unwelcome positive feedback loop.

 

All these outcomes are incredibly unhealthy for the heart, and probably explain why some powerlifters/bodybuilders (anecdotally, and I suppose relative to their otherwise incredibly healthy looking bodies) seem to suffer disproportionately from heart attacks, afib etc etc.

 

As you get older time off seems to be a more prudent option as health markers become more of a priority...

[MiltonFriedman01]

Dam I knew the heart was negatively effected but not to that extent. 

 

I would imagine that all the additional drug use by bodybuilders adds to that issue (especially HgH, Clen, and pre workouts with a mixture of compounds). It would also help not to go overboard with doses or even use particular drugs which are far worse for the body like orals in the longer term. Cardiovascular training would also help off set the hypertrophy of the heart by increases blood vessel formation, increasing blood flow, decreasing resting HR, increasing the naturally occuring components within the blood, among other benefits. A small amount of aspirin use on an ED or EoD schedule has also been shown to positively effect the cardiovascular system and decrease the rate of heart attacks (Don't do this if using oral steroids though), yet excessive usage can have negative effects (Pretty sure Milton Friedman mentioned this is an interview he did over 20 years ago and his initial research was in the medical field to do with monopolies). 

 

It also highlights the fact that any form of behaviour including drug use such as AAS is a personal choice and should not be done without prior consideration as well as medical supervision (Well, at least I would argue it should be however given the OCD natural of many GP's I can understand why many people don't tell their doctors or insurance agencies). My preference is for the low dose testosterone as apposed to time off all together, however that being said I don't use large amounts of gear, nor will I ever run more then a gram a week in total.

 

I have spent time off all together without any PCT and didn't experience anything particularly concerning, although the negatives of doing this are not exactly going to slap you in the face but rather slowly creep up on you like prostate cancer (Which from what I have read, fuckin sucks).  

[Daz69]

The kind of adaptations we want in the heart are the kind that high intensity cardio bring. It can basically 'enlarge' the capacity of the heart (the chambers) and also improve the ejection fraction. So the heart becomes more efficient per beat, and hence the pulse rate tends to fall - very low in very fit athletes. It does cause a very mild form of hypertrophy, but it arranges the cardiac tissue structurally slightly differently to the type that forms from heavy weight lifting.

 

So I would always recommend HIIT. LISS doesn't really do much good or bad for the heart. It's not intense enough to cause much positive adaptation, but if you have pre-existing heart conditions, it could aggravate those by drawing on cardiac oxygen capacity.

 

One of the other positives of HIIT is that it helps to stretch and (theoretically) break up the scarring/fibrotic tissue. We have to bear in mind that intense cardio pumps very large volumes of blood through the heart (unlike weights) which causes a nice eccentric stretch to the cardiac tissue, as opposed to more concentric-focus from weights.

[MiltonFriedman01]

8 minutes ago, Daz69 said:

The kind of adaptations we want in the heart are the kind that high intensity cardio bring. It can basically 'enlarge' the capacity of the heart (the chambers) and also improve the ejection fraction. So the heart becomes more efficient per beat, and hence the pulse rate tends to fall - very low in very fit athletes. It does cause a very mild form of hypertrophy, but it arranges the cardiac tissue structurally slightly differently to the type that forms from heavy weight lifting.

 

So I would always recommend HIIT. LISS doesn't really do much good or bad for the heart. It's not intense enough to cause much positive adaptation, but if you have pre-existing heart conditions, it could aggravate those by drawing on cardiac oxygen capacity.

 

One of the other positives of HIIT is that it helps to stretch and (theoretically) break up the scarring/fibrotic tissue. We have to bear in mind that intense cardio pumps very large volumes of blood through the heart (unlike weights) which causes a nice eccentric stretch to the cardiac tissue, as opposed to more concentric-focus from weights.

 

How would you structure a cardio regimen then if you were an avid lifter given HIIT like Cycling or rowing effect the rate of recovery? Or is that not of much concern for gear users? 

 

Also does that mean some of the information about LISS promoting blood flow and recovery is overstated considering it does little for the heart and therefore the cardiovascular system in general? 

[bang_bang]

Shit this thread got weird quick 

[Wookie]

13 hours ago, bang_bang said:

Shit this thread got weird quick 

 

I might start an economics of the black market thread for our cage-stage Libertarian friend.  :)

[MiltonFriedman01]

Mostly my fault :( Sorry

 

In regards to Tren, can someone please try test the theory about high doses inhibiting  (not preventing) de novo lipogenesis? If this is true that is amazing and would explain the sweating/body temp increases. 

 

Also how true are the negative cardio outcomes of a tren cycle? 

[maccaz]

Just now, MiltonFriedman01 said:

 

Also how true are the negative cardio outcomes of a tren cycle? 

 

not as bad as i expected. noticeable but doesnt affect my day to day life.

i dont run or anything though

[MiltonFriedman01]

7 minutes ago, maccaz said:

 

not as bad as i expected. noticeable but doesnt affect my day to day life.

i dont run or anything though

 

So your not struggling to walk up stairs or coughing your lungs out from cycling or jogging?