Good Bye Carbs, Hello Fats - An excercise muscle growth...

[Daz69]

3 minutes ago, Rebel101 said:

Daz69 as l said at the begining of the post l am not debating the cost benefit of adopting a ketogenic diet just to report on how l find the outcomes.

For me even small amounts of complex carbs are illicit ing fat gain and heightening my allergenic levels to a point where heavy training is difficult.

For me l need an alternative. 

This is about trialing different scenarios and assessing the outcomes on a personal level.

 

It's about practical application not theory.

 

Don't you think the original problem of fat gain post comp was more conducent with high estrogen levels as opposed to hypothesised allergy to carbs..?

[Rebel101]

16 minutes ago, Daz69 said:

 

Don't you think the original problem of fat gain post comp was more conducent with high estrogen levels as opposed to hypothesised allergy to carbs..?

 

Firstly there is little evidence to justify an assumed change in oestrogen levels.

Secondly when you have immune reactions they are easily recognised, and they have been consistent over the last 30 years or so and they are physically proven not just hypothesized.

[HarryB]

Thanks for the post Daz. I'm aware if these issues I'm just not as articulate ha ha ha :) made for interesting reading and clarified some of the things I have read and experienced in my own diets and with my clients. I would say that the time to get your glycogen levels back to normal isn't as long as you suggest but perhaps it takes that long for the metabolism to adjust to implementing carbs efficiently? 

 

At any rate timing is everything as you say and yes you have to be regimented. But truth be told that's the same with any protocol. If you're not regimented then you can't accurately Guage anything that's happening. 

 

I'm interested to see what happens in this process for you Rebel. There is the issue of toxicity when converting protein into an energy source and the deficiencies that process has. But as you say it's application and results that count. My question about blood work and hormone levels is mostly just in the interests of really tracking what your body is doing through this process. And yes I do get bloodwork done and have done regularly for the 20 plus years I've been taking steroids. I understand that's not something you need to think about but for tracking what a prep does to my body it's a handy tool. So was just me 2c. 

 

My experience if we're being anecdotal is that whilst keto works well as a system for maintaining a lower level of bf it sucks when it comes to getting contest shredded. Especially if you're long term following that system. Great for life not so great for comps. It's hard to say exactly why that is but what I have found is that the final stage look isn't quite the same as when I or my clients utilize a cyclic or carb reduction diet. Be good to see what the difference is from this last comp to the next. Nothing beats results right :)

[HumanPerformance]

I think we all have to remember we are dealing with an individual here. The way 99.9% of the population responds to a particular macro ratio/food/eating schedule is inconsequential when dealing with a particular individual that does not respond in the same way. If we look at it from another perspective -

We can all come on here and debate the nutritional   benefits (or not) of eating  peanuts, the good fats they contain, their relatively high protein content etc. But to less than 0.1% (over ten million people globally) peanuts are a deadly substance and so for these individuals the whole debate is a mute point.

 

I have trained Christine for three years now and the decisions I make regarding her nutrition are a result of the cumulative observations I have made during this time, as well as 24 years of observations with other clients, and consulting with experts whom have more experience than myself  in Christines numerous Gastro Intestinal issues.

 

Christine suffers from a variety of health conditions that are brought on by the consumption of certain carbohydrates. These reactions are visible and severe within just a few hours (some so severe she would not like them discussed here) of her consuming certain foods. The systemic inflammatory reaction her body has to most carbohydrates means that for this current period of time I need to give her body a break from carbohydrates if I am going to have any chance of her body coping with the rigors of competition prep coming up. Of course if she was a normal individual a higher carbohydrate intake during this would facilitate greater muscle gain (and make my job much easier) , but at this time I do not have this luxury available to me. There are psychological reasons that have contributed to this decision also that I wont be going in to on here.  

 

When it comes to top level bodybuilders you are typically not dealing with people with a normal biochemical make up. It is often this variance from the norm that allows them to climb so high up the bodybuilding ladder in the first place. They are able to achieve things that others cannot. After Ronnie retired numerous studies were performed on him that revealed amongst other things that he lacked the genes required to turn carbohydrates into bodyfat (we should all be so impaired!) and his myostatin (the gene that limits how much muscle you can have)levels were almost non existent.   

 

We must remember that everyone is an individual. And when we are talking about the best way to gain muscle, lose fat, or train for a marathon there are those that will always follow a different path not because of ignorance or stupidity but because they have learned through trial and error that this is what works best for their particular biochemistry .

[Rebel101]

Ohhhh well another 4 weeks down and another BodPod test done.

 

After 4 weeks of protein and fat l am 1/2 a percent lower in body fat, and no change in lean fat free mass.

 

I think now is appropriate for me to do a review of the BodPod measurement system and it's potential limitations.

 

This marks the end of my official growth period and as of Saturday it is back to pre contest mode!!!!

[BeastBuilder]

But given that you have been eating close to zero carbs for 4weeks your muscle glycogen will be lower than when you got the first test done, correct ?

And glycogen, water, muscle, whatever else gets lumped into the same category as Fat Free Mass.

So theoretically you may have put on muscle mass and at the same time as you've flattened out hence the no overall change ?

Even if you had a different amount of food in your digestive system etc that would also be counted in the Fat Free Mass ?

[maccaz]

issue with bod pod is the amount of bf% you have lost is well inside the body pods range of error (up to 2.7%) so theoretically you could have actually gained up to 2.2% bf without knowing.

 

makes things tough when dealing in tiny measurements

[Rebel101]

9 hours ago, BeastBuilder said:

But given that you have been eating close to zero carbs for 4weeks your muscle glycogen will be lower than when you got the first test done, correct ?

And glycogen, water, muscle, whatever else gets lumped into the same category as Fat Free Mass.

So theoretically you may have put on muscle mass and at the same time as you've flattened out hence the no overall change ?

Even if you had a different amount of food in your digestive system etc that would also be counted in the Fat Free Mass ?

 

Yes you are quite correct.

 

I suspect that with this particular testing method l will not see any particular gains until l run a second series of tests following the Worlds ie like the first BodPod test 2 weeks after the NAC Universe and comparents it to another BodPod test 2 weeks after the NAC Worlds in June.

[Rebel101]

9 hours ago, maccaz said:

issue with bod pod is the amount of bf% you have lost is well inside the body pods range of error (up to 2.7%) so theoretically you could have actually gained up to 2.2% bf without knowing.

 

makes things tough when dealing in tiny measurements

 

Yes and this is quite correct too!

 

Although with a shadow body fat test but Aylmer this afternoon his calipers measured me at 15.6%. 

 

It is well known that the BodPod system can measure up to 10% higher than conventional body fat measurements.

 

So with the 2 assessments l can have some degree of confidence in where l am sitting.

[HarryB]

So essentially zero gains shown from this particular protocol ?

[Rebel101]

4 hours ago, HarryB said:

So essentially zero gains shown from this particular protocol ?

 

It would seem so for the last eight weeks under either carbs or no carbs.

 

But l don't think this is the answer

 

If l go back to first principles and Aylmers testing 

 

In late November l was competing at 63 kg and 8% body fat this calculates to 58 kg lean mass now allowing for re carb and fluid of 3 kg this means 61 kg lean mass

 

 Now at 77 kg and 15.6% body fat this calculates to 65 kg lean mass allowing for carb and fluid of say 1.5 kg this equates to 66.5 kg

 

So from late November with lean mass of 61 to now with lean mass of 66.5 this comes back to a gain of 5.5 kg.

 

There are some issues with BodPod testing that allow room for questioning, maybe l will only see the answer to BodPod result when l compare like periods ie 2 weeks post contest to another 2 weeks post contest measurement.

[Daz69]

9 hours ago, HarryB said:

So essentially zero gains shown from this particular protocol ?

 

To elaborate on what I  have stated previously post cycle if estrogen isn't managed correctly: 

 

Of note: Thyroid hormones enhance the lipolytic responses of fat cells to other hormones..

 

A particular action of raised estrogen is to create greater binding of thyroxine to TBG (thyroxine binding globulin) essentially this increased binding negatively impacts metabolism in favour of greater fat retention..

 

[Rebel101]

31 minutes ago, Daz69 said:

 

To elaborate on what I  have stated previously post cycle if estrogen isn't managed correctly: 

 

Of note: Thyroid hormones enhance the lipolytic responses of fat cells to other hormones..

 

A particular action of raised estrogen is to create greater binding of thyroxine to TBG (thyroxine binding globulin) essentially this increased binding negatively impacts metabolism in favour of greater fat retention..

 

 

This is a bit like a broken record Daz if you want a thread on oestrogen levels as they relate to body fat then make your own Post.

 

I am simply documenting my trial of carbless training. 

 

Please keep to the subject, l am not interested in documenting my hormone levels on this site!