Good Bye Carbs, Hello Fats - An excercise muscle growth...

[Daz69]

1 hour ago, Rebel101 said:

 

Because next time l want to do better like 5 %

 

Then that might not be conducent for growth.

[jimmybro1]

6 hours ago, Rebel101 said:

 

The energy system may not be "as efficient" but so long as it delivers adequate energy levels then that is all that is needed.

 

Yes I follow the keto diet but I cannot agree that I lead a placid lifestyle, I guess if you qualify placid as 10 hours of pure weight training and 6 hours of HIIT cardio and 5 hours of steady state cardio as placid then this could be so.

 

No do not follow hormone levels I avoid the medical system, my 10 years training as Medical Laboratory Technologist left me lacking respect for the formal medical system. It simply wastes my time. Technically at my age height and weight I would be classed as obese, what does that tell me? 

So you don't monitor your health at all through blood tests? 

 

Haven't you had a stroke in the past? What was the case or this? I would have thought it required monitoring of bloods. 

[Rebel101]

10 minutes ago, jimmybro1 said:

So you don't monitor your health at all through blood tests? 

 

Haven't you had a stroke in the past? What was the case or this? I would have thought it required monitoring of bloods. 

 

No l don't get random blood tests done.

 

Do not know where you got the weird idea l have ever had a stroke that's bizarre! 

 

Unfortunately l do not have any injuries or ilnesses that give me any excuse to whimp out of anything!

[jimmybro1]

13 minutes ago, Rebel101 said:

 

No l don't get random blood tests done.

 

Do not know where you got the weird idea l have ever had a stroke that's bizarre! 

 

Unfortunately l do not have any injuries or ilnesses that give me any excuse to whimp out of anything!

Oh I might be thinking of someone else in Womens bodybuilding in NZ. 

 

They use to do NABBA competitions, I swear it was you lol 

[Rebel101]

3 hours ago, jimmybro1 said:

Oh I might be thinking of someone else in Womens bodybuilding in NZ. 

 

They use to do NABBA competitions, I swear it was you lol 

 

Nope you are out of the ball park on that one

 

20 + years ago there was only NZIFBB to compete in

[jimmybro1]

12 hours ago, Rebel101 said:

 

Nope you are out of the ball park on that one

 

20 + years ago there was only NZIFBB to compete in

This was at a NABBA-NAC show in 2012 at Manwatua 

[Rebel101]

19 hours ago, Daz69 said:

 

Then that might not be conducent for growth.

 

5% during precontest diet is not when you are looking to achieve growth anyway

[Rebel101]

1 hour ago, jimmybro1 said:

This was at a NABBA-NAC show in 2012 at Manwatua 

 

Nope definitely not me

[Daz69]

On 20/01/2016 at 1:22 PM, Rebel101 said:

if I want to be able to compete internationally and under 5% then I need to be able to stay under 15% off season.

 

I was referring to off season growth potential..

[Rebel101]

3 hours ago, Daz69 said:

 

I was referring to off season growth potential..

 

This I leave to the experience of Aylmer, he is charged with worrying about how to but I am sure he feels confident I can achieve this.

 

In any case the BodPod test should be able to help in the assessment of this, or at least I hope it will, otherwise I will have to post pictures here and ask for opinions and that is always very risky!!!!!

[HarryB]

I'd see the weight gain as normal post comp and the increase in bf. Keto is the popular way to go because the assumption is that it will help you retain condition and blah blah blah all that good stuff. At the end of the day like with all things your body attenuates and tries to return to what it thinks is its normal state. So you find yourself not in the condition you'd like to be in on zero carbs and high fats and moderate to high protein.. then you try to change back to a carb based diet and gain all the fat you wanted to keep off and more while your body it trying to cope. Especially if you stay keto for a while. A good idea is to alternate periods of keto with periods of cyclic carb dieting and train according to your intake. This means your body won't build up any resistance to insulin or carbs etc etc 

 

You should be getting your hormone levels checked. Apparently a ketogenic diet is very beneficial to natural bodybuilders and their hormone levels. 

[Rebel101]

3 hours ago, HarryB said:

I'd see the weight gain as normal post comp and the increase in bf. Keto is the popular way to go because the assumption is that it will help you retain condition and blah blah blah all that good stuff. At the end of the day like with all things your body attenuates and tries to return to what it thinks is its normal state. So you find yourself not in the condition you'd like to be in on zero carbs and high fats and moderate to high protein.. then you try to change back to a carb based diet and gain all the fat you wanted to keep off and more while your body it trying to cope. Especially if you stay keto for a while. A good idea is to alternate periods of keto with periods of cyclic carb dieting and train according to your intake. This means your body won't build up any resistance to insulin or carbs etc etc 

 

You should be getting your hormone levels checked. Apparently a ketogenic diet is very beneficial to natural bodybuilders and their hormone levels. 

 

I guess what i am saying is that for some physiques/metabolisms they can stay lean eating a diet with moderate to high carbohydrates in their diet.

 

But this is not necessarily going to work for all physiques/metabolisms.

 

For me I gather body fat with moderate carbohydrates while with low carbs and high fats I stay lean and hopefully grow (only time with tell this). But also carbs seem to elevate my allergenicity levels and are almost counterproductive to heavy training.

 

AS FOR hormone levels!!!!!! What is it with this, there is little to be achieved by monitoring my "hormone" levels. I have an underactive thyroid and this is monitored and treated as it has been for the last 15 years. I do not have any other hormones that need monitoring, why waste my money! I am not planning on having children,  am long past having to worry about menopause, testosterone is negligible and I have no health issues to face. Why make things more complicated than they already are! I am a healthy, strong, fit individual is that not enough?

 

How many of you check your hormone levels? And what do you check?

[Realtalk]

Yeah I do, I monitor various levels related to aas use and I'm male. Females would want to take that a step further I would reccomend. 

 

But you're natural of course so wouldn't apply to you. 

 

Also so I was just questioning the diet cause I know youre natural so just seemed strange for a natural competitor to have so much energy to train while not having any carbohydrates.

 

Sorry I asked.

[maccaz]

testosterone negligible? 

how much is a normal dose for a female to take? im not sure iv never really looked into it, id say for a male that dose would be negligible but for a female no way.. just something to bear in mind health wise.

 

thats why people are suggesting to check hormones. although doubt anyone here will have too much  knowledge on aas for females. bit of an unknown area maybe

[Rebel101]

18 minutes ago, Realtalk said:

Yeah I do, I monitor various levels related to aas use and I'm male. Females would want to take that a step further I would reccomend. 

 

But you're natural of course so wouldn't apply to you. 

 

Also so I was just questioning the diet cause I know youre natural so just seemed strange for a natural competitor to have so much energy to train while not having any carbohydrates.

 

Sorry I asked.

 

No need to apologise there are many lines getting crossed here.

 

I did not realise that it is unusual to have energy while on a ketotic diet, l just have never had any problems with energy while in ketosis.

 

Females of my age have alot simpler life when it comes to hormones, none to worry about.

[Daz69]

30 minutes ago, Rebel101 said:

Females of my age have a lot simpler life when it comes to hormones, none to worry about.

 

I was of the opinion estrogen is related to BF storage, to further this women tend to carry excess fat in their hips, while men tend to carry it on their stomachs. After menopause, things start to change, many women's fat storage patterns start to resemble those of men...  Fat stored around the abdomen is more dangerous, it has been associated with diabetes, heart disease, stroke and some cancers. When post-menopausal women put on more abdominal fat, they dramatically increase their risk for these health problems..

 

Therefore it would seem prudent to regularly check to see if estrogen ratio was within acceptable range, and adjust with an AI, or SERM.. 

 

 

 

 

[Rebel101]

12 hours ago, Daz69 said:

 

I was of the opinion estrogen is related to BF storage, to further this women tend to carry excess fat in their hips, while men tend to carry it on their stomachs. After menopause, things start to change, many women's fat storage patterns start to resemble those of men...  Fat stored around the abdomen is more dangerous, it has been associated with diabetes, heart disease, stroke and some cancers. When post-menopausal women put on more abdominal fat, they dramatically increase their risk for these health problems..

 

Therefore it would seem prudent to regularly check to see if estrogen ratio was within acceptable range, and adjust with an AI, or SERM.. 

 

I understand what you are saying however the issue is that "excess fat" "stored around the abdomen is more dangerous, it has been associated with diabetes, heart disease, stroke and some cancers". If I do not have excess fat then what is the issue?

 

If I have high oestrogen levels? then I may store excess fat and this would be dangerous, however I do not have excess fat so what danger exists? And how would I benefit from testing oestrogen levels?

[Rebel101]

14 hours ago, maccaz said:

testosterone negligible? 

how much is a normal dose for a female to take? im not sure iv never really looked into it, id say for a male that dose would be negligible but for a female no way.. just something to bear in mind health wise.

 

thats why people are suggesting to check hormones. although doubt anyone here will have too much  knowledge on aas for females. bit of an unknown area maybe

 

I have missed your point!

As a female it is normal to have low testosterone levels so why bother testing to find this out, the result will not change anything?

As for "how much is a normal dose for a female to take?" there is no normal dose for a female.

[Daz69]

4 minutes ago, Rebel101 said:

 

I understand what you are saying however the issue is that "excess fat" "stored around the abdomen is more dangerous, it has been associated with diabetes, heart disease, stroke and some cancers". If I do not have excess fat then what is the issue?

 

If I have high oestrogen levels? then I may store excess fat and this would be dangerous, however I do not have excess fat so what danger exists? And how would I benefit from testing oestrogen levels?

 

When introducing exogenous hormones into any system, be it male or female it would seem prudent to keep a check where levels were at, at any point on cycle, also to see where they were heading and take appropriate countermeasures if need be...    Its also seen as prudent to record pre and post cycle.. 

[Rebel101]

54 minutes ago, Daz69 said:

 

When introducing exogenous hormones into any system, be it male or female it would seem prudent to keep a check where levels were at, at any point on cycle, also to see where they were heading and take appropriate countermeasures if need be...    Its also seen as prudent to record pre and post cycle.. 

 

Then this also negates any need for me to test for hormone levels. The only medication l am on is thyroxine and as stated the GP monitors this, there are no other hormones from outside sources that need to be tested for.

[Pseudonym]

Guys, I think we're going round in circles now. You've made your points. There's nothing to be gained by repeating them over and over.

 

Remember the forum rules say that you can't make allegations of steroid use. Rebel has said she's not using. End of story.

[Daz69]

On 22/01/2016 at 3:17 PM, HarryB said:

I'd see the weight gain as normal post comp and the increase in bf. Keto is the popular way to go because the assumption is that it will help you retain condition and blah blah blah all that good stuff. At the end of the day like with all things your body attenuates and tries to return to what it thinks is its normal state. So you find yourself not in the condition you'd like to be in on zero carbs and high fats and moderate to high protein.. then you try to change back to a carb based diet and gain all the fat you wanted to keep off and more while your body it trying to cope. Especially if you stay keto for a while. A good idea is to alternate periods of keto with periods of cyclic carb dieting and train according to your intake. This means your body won't build up any resistance to insulin or carbs etc etc 

 

 

Hi Harry... Theoretically, yes but you've got to make sure your time points as well as your carb intake amount are spot on. The body usually begins to enter into a ketotic state after 2-3 days (this is when the body's glycogen stores are become depleted). However, the initial states of ketosis are fairly inefficient and to become fully adjusted to daily life in a ketotic state it usually takes around 3 weeks. During these three weeks you'll generally see the largest amount of weight loss per unit time. Once in a full ketotic state (after 3 weeks), it becomes easier to transition in and out of a ketotic state because the it takes awhile (approximately 2 weeks) for the body to fully replenish it's glycogen stores (if you're going to run a cyclic ketogenic diet wait 3 weeks before starting cycles). When you're trying to transition out of ketosis (the cycle-out) you've really got to be careful of the type of carbs you ingest as taking in a high amount of high glycemic index carbs in a short amount of time will cause such a large insulin spike that most of the carbs will undergo glycogenesis and be stored as fat, which would completely defeat all the weeks of work you've put in prior to lose fat. The downside to this type of diet for those who aren't super strict is that they'll inevitably end up undergoing a treadmill effect where no progress is made and they simply stay stagnant at the same body composition with no fat loss or muscle gain.

[Daz69]

This type of logic can apply to workout types as well and what your target end-goals are. Ex: Lifting at a high intensity, lighter weight and shorter rests for increased lipolysis vs lifting at a lower intensity, heavier weight, longer rests aimed at muscle hypertrophy. If one were to perform the two types of workouts in an alternate pattern every other week, it's likely that not much improvement in either direction would be observed. However, by increasing the time points of these phases to, lets say 3 months each, one would experience much more significant improvement in muscle hypertrophy and fat loss.

[Daz69]

On 19/01/2016 at 0:58 PM, Rebel101 said:

For the last 2 weeks I have stripped the carbs out of my diet, and increased the fats so my macros now read protein 250 g, carbs 5 g, fats 185 g. After 14 day I have bought my weight back to 74 kg and at the moment have little drop in strength, I am moderately in ketosis all day.

 

In 2 weeks time I will go back and have the BodPod test redone and see the consequences, I think I can see better body conditioning but as for lean mass I have little idea of whether I am achieving Aylmers goal of 500 g gain of fat free mass every week, we will see!!!!

 

Due to your extremely low carbohydrate intake (true ketogenic diets assume a net intake of less than 50 grams of carbs/day) your body will begin breaking down the amino acids normally used for protein synthesis, (either from the protein you're ingesting, or from your muscles) and start using it to make glucose (gluconeogenesis). The only amino acids that can’t be use during this process are leucine and lysine as these can only be utilized to synthesize fatty acids. In addition to this process, the body will begin increasing the rate of lipolysis (this is the major upside of a ketogenic diet) wherein a triacylglycerol (fat) molecule is cleaved to provide 3 fatty acid chains and 1 glycerol molecule. Via beta-oxidation, which gives us Acetyl-CoA, these fatty acids can be used by most body tissues as an alternative source of energy (remember, Acetyl-CoA is what drives TCA cycle and subsequently, the electron transport chain).

 

The brain cannot use long-chain fatty acids for energy because they are completely albumin-bound and as such, cannot cross the blood-brain barrier (only some medium chain fatty acids cross the BBB, but this is generally not sufficient enough to provide adequate energy for the brain). Therefore, any carbohydrates that you do intake will be automatically shunted towards providing energy for the brain and be broken down into glucose. Why’s this bad for muscle growth? this means that the glycogen stores in your muscles will become depleted very quickly (usually within a few days), and two, your body will being to rely heavily on the urea cycle (the breakdown of amino acids) and also lipolysis for energy stores. All of these factors result in a large net decrease in the rate of amino acid (protein) synthesis, especially true in skeletal muscle tissue. Not only does this inhibit muscle hypertrophy and increase rate of catabolism, but it also makes the body more acidic (fyi, some enzymes – enzymes catalyze reactions, some of which are catabolic – operate more efficiently in an acidic environment) due to an increase in nitrogen content in the body (the result of large scale breakdown of amino (NH2) acids) which together with CO2 forms urea. Finally, your insulin levels will plummet pretty low. Insulin is released in response to carbohydrate ingestion and it is the most anabolic hormone known to man. Without it, it’s definitely going to be nearly impossible to grow.

 

If you’re looking primarily for fat-loss, a ketogenic diet is a great method to employ. However, if you’re looking to gain muscle mass, a ketogenic diet can be your biggest enemy; at best you can expect to maybe maintain your muscle mass, but this is for the few genetically gifted individuals among us. Ask anyone that’s run a ketogenic diet and they will tell you that without the aid of AAS or GH peptides, they lost muscle mass. Your best bet is to eat a clean and well balanced diet and actually up your carbohydrate intake. If you’re worried about gaining fat, just limit your carbs to low glycemic index carbs (keeping your insulin spikes pretty low) and aim for a small calorie surplus.

[Rebel101]

Daz69 as l said at the begining of the post l am not debating the cost benefit of adopting a ketogenic diet just to report on how l find the outcomes.

For me even small amounts of complex carbs are illicit ing fat gain and heightening my allergenic levels to a point where heavy training is difficult.

For me l need an alternative. 

This is about trialing different scenarios and assessing the outcomes on a personal level.

 

It's about practical application not theory.