Good Bye Carbs, Hello Fats - An excercise muscle growth...

[Rebel101]

Yes I know this goes against all my historical training and knowledge. Everything I have always known says you need carbs to grow muscle......

 

Well following some recent testing I have had done I have been forced to face some rather uncomfortable possibilities.

 

Now I am not here to debate whether or not people grow in the absence of carbs, if you want that I will bring in the expertise of Aylmer Porter to defend the concept, I simply am not up to his level of experience or knowledge in this area.

 

I am here however to give you a look into the decision process as to why I might take on this trial.

 

Six weeks ago I had a BodPod teat completed. A BodPod test is completed under the auspices of Massey University. It is theoretically a more accurate test of body composition. My weight at the time was 72.68, fat free mass 63.43, body fat 12.7% (this was about 2 weeks post Hamburg NAC Universe).

 

Four weeks later of heavy training, a constructed diet of 230 g protein, 250 g carbs, 65 g fats I had the test redone. Weight 77.03, fat free mass 63.246, body fat 17.9%.

 

This result can be read to say that in 4 weeks I gained 4.35 kg of fat and lost 0.18 of fat free mass. 

 

This is simply not acceptable to me, and hence I try to understand what the issues may be in here. Yes there are questions as to the accuracy of the BodPod test and that would be the subject of a whole new thread, but putting accuracy aside and looking to consistency for answers.

 

I have been forced to confront the possibility that FOR ME carbohydrates do not form a sound nutritional base. There are people I think who do not handle carbohydrate metabolism well. And I am one of those!!!! For me it seems that carbohydrates just make me want more carbohydrates and do not assist particularly well in the production in the growth of lean muscle.

 

Now what to do about this!

 

Only one thing to do trial a carb free growth period, and that is what I am in the middle of!

 

For the last 2 weeks I have stripped the carbs out of my diet, and increased the fats so my macros now read protein 250 g, carbs 5 g, fats 185 g. After 14 day I have bought my weight back to 74 kg and at the moment have little drop in strength, I am moderately in ketosis all day.

 

In 2 weeks time I will go back and have the BodPod test redone and see the consequences, I think I can see better body conditioning but as for lean mass I have little idea of whether I am achieving Aylmers goal of 500 g gain of fat free mass every week, we will see!!!!

[maccaz]

10 minutes ago, Rebel101 said:

I have been forced to confront the possibility that FOR ME carbohydrates do not form a sound nutritional base. There are people I think who do not handle carbohydrate metabolism well. And I am one of those!!!! For me it seems that carbohydrates just make me want more carbohydrates and do not assist particularly well in the production in the growth of lean muscle.

 

 

I'm sure Aylmer is the expert in this field, but...

 

I think it is a stretch and big call to think you don't handle carb metabolism, based on a single body fat test. Too many variables could have influenced the result to make a drastic change based on that result? 

 

worth a try i guess.. but i wouldnt read too much into a tiny % change via bod pod like that..

Could be so many things influencing a tiny change like that, regular hormone cycles, water, etc, etc.

 

Do you have access to dexa at all?

 

[muscle99]

Training in a complete carb depleted state...yikes! Am interested in the outcome of this trial though.

[Rebel101]

Just now, maccaz said:

 

I'm sure Aylmer is the expert in this field, but...

 

I think it is a stretch and big call to think you don't handle carb metabolism, based on a single body fat test. Too many variables could have influenced the result to make a drastic change based on that result? 

 

worth a try i guess.. but i wouldnt read too much into a tiny % change via bod pod like that..

Could be so many things influencing a tiny change like that, regular hormone cycles, water, etc, etc.

 

Do you have access to dexa at all?

 

 

No I do not have access to a dexa test.

 

This is by far not based on one body fat test, it is the accumulated knowledge of many years of nutritional standardisation.

 

I have over a number of years tried to formulate a nutritional program that sees me stay lean (ahhh so like you guys seem to year round) but I never seem to be able to stay within the confines of "lean enough". And YES I know that you have to be prepared to put on some fat in order to gain muscle size!

 

However, having travelled to the Universe I can see that, ladies competing internationally hold their conditioning down to with in 10% body fat of their competitive body fay level, so if I want to be able to compete internationally and under 5% then I need to be able to stay under 15% off season.

 

Ultimately, cause and effect is one of the greatest teachers in evaluating what works for any individuals physique, and off season you get the opportunity to trial things and that is exactly what I am doing. International competition exacts higher levels of performance for longer and this is what I am trying to assimilate.

 

[GyzzBrah]

What does this BodPod test involve Rebel? Is it like a scanning machine, or do they do a combination of various different methods etc?

You said that your first test was 2 weeks post comp, but for your second test that you did, were you in a deficit still?

 

Id be very interested to see what your results are, being that I dont like carbs.

[Georg]

3 minutes ago, GyzzBrah said:

Id be very interested to see what your results are, being that I dont like carbs.

Gyzz I noticed you eat a lot of pasta, according to your Diet, for someone that doesn't like carbs?

[BeastBuilder]

Gyzz you don't seem to like food in general.

You're far too inconsistent for a diet of this kind eg you'd do it Monday and Tuesday then you Mum would cook Mi Goreng on Wednesday and you'd eat it without even blinking.

 

I reckon you could get good results from this Rebel, you don't have to have carbs to build muscle, a calorie surplus should suffice. Your body should become pretty efficient at using fats for fuel. I'll be interested to see if the intensity of your work outs can stay at the level you need it to be without carbs though.

I'm no scientist or expert, will be interested to see how you go.

[maccaz]

47 minutes ago, Georg said:

Gyzz I noticed you eat a lot of pasta, according to your Diet, for someone that doesn't like carbs?

 

lol

[Rebel101]

4 hours ago, muscle99 said:

Training in a complete carb depleted state...yikes! Am interested in the outcome of this trial though.

 

Yes its an interesting excercise, may be carb depleted but not energy deficient!

[Rebel101]

2 hours ago, GyzzBrah said:

What does this BodPod test involve Rebel? Is it like a scanning machine, or do they do a combination of various different methods etc?

You said that your first test was 2 weeks post comp, but for your second test that you did, were you in a deficit still?

 

Id be very interested to see what your results are, being that I dont like carbs.

 

The BodPod is a advanced form of body mass evaluation, this will be the subject of another post I think. Essentially it assesses the body mass through air displacement.

 

I was not in a deficit in either test, in caloric balance at 2500 cal daily

[Rebel101]

2 hours ago, BeastBuilder said:

I reckon you could get good results from this Rebel, you don't have to have carbs to build muscle, a calorie surplus should suffice. Your body should become pretty efficient at using fats for fuel. I'll be interested to see if the intensity of your work outs can stay at the level you need it to be without carbs though.

I'm no scientist or expert, will be interested to see how you go.

 

Yes at 2 weeks in I am in a moderate level of ketosis all day, so by three weeks when full ketosis is well established it will be interesting to evaluate strength levels.

 

I am still increasing strength post contest pretty rapidly and todays quad training was very interesting.

 

Just 4 weeks ago I said that its great training with carbs as you can feel the power in your quads that allows you to work, and I was then doing about 90 kg squats for 10 reps. at set6 5, and today even though I am working in a ketotic state I felt just the same and was squatting 100 kg for 12 reps, with power to spare. So essentially it seems at the moment strength is not suffering at all.

 

[Realtalk]

4 hours ago, Rebel101 said:

 

Yes its an interesting excercise, may be carb depleted but not energy deficient!

but not as efficient as you would be with carbohydrates. The human body can't use fat for energy as well as it can carbohydrates. There is all sorts of crazy thinking behind that it can. But it just can't. Only reason it seems like it works for bodybuilders and people who follow the Keto diet and Atkins methods are because they are living placid lifestyles where they don't require much energy to do activities they do.

 

Also those are really low bodyfat levels for a female to maintain year round. Are you monitoring your hormones at all because you would know it's not good eh..?

 

[Pseudonym]

My first thought was whether you might have seen the same fat gain regardless of your diet - ie, it was just the pure fact of increasing your calories that did it. But still... interesting experiment.

[bang_bang]

Sounds like you've jumped from a very low calorie comp diet to 2500cal putting you suddenly into a large surplus? Have you heard of reverse dieting? 

 

You've also probably stopped taking drugs that dropped your body fat to unnaturally low levels. 

 

Hard to say what's caused such a large fat gain without knowing all the factors. 

[Daz69]

19 hours ago, Rebel101 said:

Six weeks ago I had a BodPod teat completed. A BodPod test is completed under the auspices of Massey University. It is theoretically a more accurate test of body composition. My weight at the time was 72.68, fat free mass 63.43, body fat 12.7% (this was about 2 weeks post Hamburg NAC Universe).

 

Four weeks later of heavy training, a constructed diet of 230 g protein, 250 g carbs, 65 g fats I had the test redone. Weight 77.03, fat free mass 63.246, body fat 17.9%.

 

This result can be read to say that in 4 weeks I gained 4.35 kg of fat and lost 0.18 of fat free mass. 

 

You were 2 weeks post-comp' BF% was still low from months of dieting, I am aware Aylmer advises to continue training within this time frame, whilst increasing MACROS to take advantage of the body's most anabolic window of opportunity.. 

At stage condition an athlete's BF% is very low, this is unhealthy and unsustainable over the longer term, once you increased calories your body should re-compensate by increasing some BF, for normal healthy living..

 

Are you over thinking, what should have happened naturally, anyway..?

[maccaz]

22 minutes ago, Daz69 said:

 

You were 2 weeks post-comp' BF% was still low from months of dieting, I am aware Aylmer advises to continue training within this time frame, whilst increasing MACROS to take advantage of the body's most anabolic window of opportunity.. 

At stage condition an athlete's BF% is very low, this is unhealthy and unsustainable over the longer term, once you increased calories your body should re-compensate by increasing some BF, for normal healthy living..

 

Are you over thinking, what should have happened naturally, anyway..?

This is what i reckon , but at least she is trying it.

[eLm0]

I was part of this AUT study last year where I was on a LCHF diet for 8 weeks and they monitored my strength and body composition. First my normal diet was monitored for 4 weeks then for the next 8 weeks carbs were restricted to 70-80g (1g/kg bodyweight) and no calorie restriction (was on about 2200/day).

So carbs not too low - probably just above the ketogenic 

Was training sheiko throughout.

 

 

Anyway over the 8 weeks strength increased and body composition decreased (lost 1kg - but I was already relatively lean). They also measured my muscle thickness and pennation angle but this remained the same.

 

The full results haven't been published yet but will be interesting to see how others went.

[maccaz]

18 minutes ago, eLm0 said:

I was part of this AUT study last year where I was on a LCHF diet for 8 weeks and they monitored my strength and body composition. First my normal diet was monitored for 4 weeks then for the next 8 weeks carbs were restricted to 70-80g (1g/kg bodyweight) and no calorie restriction (was on about 2200/day).

So carbs not too low - probably just above the ketogenic 

Was training sheiko throughout.

 

 

Anyway over the 8 weeks strength increased and body composition decreased (lost 1kg - but I was already relatively lean). They also measured my muscle thickness and pennation angle but this remained the same.

 

The full results haven't been published yet but will be interesting to see how others went.

Question i have is, do you think it is optimal? Strength increased but would it have increased more with carbs ? No way to know i guess

[Rebel101]

14 hours ago, Realtalk said:

but not as efficient as you would be with carbohydrates. The human body can't use fat for energy as well as it can carbohydrates. There is all sorts of crazy thinking behind that it can. But it just can't. Only reason it seems like it works for bodybuilders and people who follow the Keto diet and Atkins methods are because they are living placid lifestyles where they don't require much energy to do activities they do.

 

Also those are really low bodyfat levels for a female to maintain year round. Are you monitoring your hormones at all because you would know it's not good eh..?

 

 

The energy system may not be "as efficient" but so long as it delivers adequate energy levels then that is all that is needed.

 

Yes I follow the keto diet but I cannot agree that I lead a placid lifestyle, I guess if you qualify placid as 10 hours of pure weight training and 6 hours of HIIT cardio and 5 hours of steady state cardio as placid then this could be so.

 

No do not follow hormone levels I avoid the medical system, my 10 years training as Medical Laboratory Technologist left me lacking respect for the formal medical system. It simply wastes my time. Technically at my age height and weight I would be classed as obese, what does that tell me? 

[Rebel101]

13 hours ago, Pseudonym said:

My first thought was whether you might have seen the same fat gain regardless of your diet - ie, it was just the pure fact of increasing your calories that did it. But still... interesting experiment.

 

At the time of the first test I was formally reverse dieting out of pre contest mode, and still was two weeks later, so its possible that just increasing the calories did it but it is not so much the body fat increase I was concerned with but the lack of gain in lean mass.

 

It does go further though, by the time I had the second test I was experiencing joint pain in my shoulders and other auto immune reactions that indicate a level of increased sensitivity. Since dropping carbs out of my diet, join pains have resolved and other auto immune reactions are also on the decrease.

 

So it has indicated to me that carbs could be heightening the allergen response or maybe even creating it.

[Rebel101]

12 hours ago, bang_bang said:

Sounds like you've jumped from a very low calorie comp diet to 2500cal putting you suddenly into a large surplus? Have you heard of reverse dieting? 

 

You've also probably stopped taking drugs that dropped your body fat to unnaturally low levels. 

 

Hard to say what's caused such a large fat gain without knowing all the factors. 

 

As I said I was reverse dieting at the time.

 

As for drugs after seeing the girls at the NAC Universe I know this is a factor for them but I was not at such low levels, 7 or 8 % is as low as I got and this is not difficult to achieve naturally given the amount of cardio I performed.

 

It would be amazing to find out the protocols the NAC Universe girls are using but I am a new comer and it will take time to form those connections I think.

 

As others may advise you I am, from history on the forum , more likely than not to carry higher than average body fat. This I am trying to improve on, hence the experimentation on my nutrition.

[Rebel101]

1 hour ago, Daz69 said:

 

You were 2 weeks post-comp' BF% was still low from months of dieting, I am aware Aylmer advises to continue training within this time frame, whilst increasing MACROS to take advantage of the body's most anabolic window of opportunity.. 

At stage condition an athlete's BF% is very low, this is unhealthy and unsustainable over the longer term, once you increased calories your body should re-compensate by increasing some BF, for normal healthy living..

 

Are you over thinking, what should have happened naturally, anyway..?

 

Not over thinking just trying to apply sound nutritional principles that will enable me to be more competitive internationally.

 

It is clear that to keep within 10% of your competitive level is desirable as you body with cope with this level of fluctuation easier than having to drop 15 or 20 %

 

If you body is less tolerant of carbohydrate and increasing its overall allergen response as a result of it then it is sensible to learn how to manage this. And I am not seeking to stay at stage condition year round just to stay within 10 % of that condition.

[Rebel101]

1 hour ago, eLm0 said:

I was part of this AUT study last year where I was on a LCHF diet for 8 weeks and they monitored my strength and body composition. First my normal diet was monitored for 4 weeks then for the next 8 weeks carbs were restricted to 70-80g (1g/kg bodyweight) and no calorie restriction (was on about 2200/day).

So carbs not too low - probably just above the ketogenic 

Was training sheiko throughout.

 

 

Anyway over the 8 weeks strength increased and body composition decreased (lost 1kg - but I was already relatively lean). They also measured my muscle thickness and pennation angle but this remained the same.

 

The full results haven't been published yet but will be interesting to see how others went.

 

This is interesting, please keep me informed when you get the final results.

[atrollappears]

1 hour ago, Rebel101 said:

 

I am not seeking to stay at stage condition year round just to stay within 10 % of that condition.

 

Quote

 7 or 8 % is as low as I got ,  body fat now 17.9%.

 

You are within that 10% range, I don't see there's a problem..

[Rebel101]

1 hour ago, atrollappears said:

 

 

You are within that 10% range, I don't see there's a problem..

 

Because next time l want to do better like 5 %