First cycle, HCG, AI and PCT questions.

[Daz69]

16 hours ago, Krillin said:

Agreed haha looks like I'll supplementing taurine while on cycle. 

 

Do you have any other useful info like that Daz? 

 

Plenty, its just remembering em.. 

 

How about 200ml pure grapefruit juice 20 mins before consuming oral steroids, this can cause inhibition of metabolic enzyme CYP3A4, responsible for breaking down (metabolizing) the steroid compound, allowing it longer in the blood stream to trigger effect...

[Krillin]

46 minutes ago, Daz69 said:

 

Plenty, its just remembering em.. 

 

How about 200ml pure grapefruit juice 20 mins before consuming oral steroids, this can cause inhibition of metabolic enzyme CYP3A4, responsible for breaking down (metabolizing) the steroid compound, allowing it longer in the blood stream to trigger effect...

 

What about reducing the stress on your liver when taking orals? 

NAC, Milk thistle etc?  Are the otc liver aid caps effective or just hippy shit? 

 

Also on a similar note, don't know if you guys use creatine at all but I read a study a while back citing that citric acid can break down creatine, so it might pay to avoid mixing your monohydrate with your morning OJ. 

[maccaz]

2 hours ago, Krillin said:

 

What about reducing the stress on your liver when taking orals? 

NAC, Milk thistle etc?  Are the otc liver aid caps effective or just hippy shit? 

 

Also on a similar note, don't know if you guys use creatine at all but I read a study a while back citing that citric acid can break down creatine, so it might pay to avoid mixing your monohydrate with your morning OJ. 

don't the liver protection stuff more just reduce the presence of markers that show damage, rather than preventing the damage?

[Krillin]

1 hour ago, maccaz said:

don't the liver protection stuff more just reduce the presence of markers that show damage, rather than preventing the damage?

 

This is the kind of info I was looking for, seems like if anyone would know, it would be Daz. 

[atrollappears]

Clinical efficacy of milk thistle is not clearly established. Interpretation of the evidence is hampered by poor study methods and/or poor quality of reporting in publications. Problems in study design include heterogeneity in etiology and extent of liver disease, small sample sizes, and variation in formulation, dosing, and duration of milk thistle therapy.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK11896/

[atrollappears]

Liv-52 works.....

The efficacy of Liv-52 on liver cirrhotic patients: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled first approach.
Huseini HF1, Alavian SM, Heshmat R, Heydari MR, Abolmaali K.

Cirrhosis is the irreversible sequel of various disorders that damage liver cells permanently over time. Presently, the use of herbal medicines for prevention and control of chronic liver diseases is in the focus of attention for both the physicians and the patients; the reasons for such shift toward the use of herbals include the expensive cost of conventional drugs, adverse drug reactions, and their inefficacy. In the present study, the efficacy of herbal medicine Liv-52 (consisting of Mandur basma, Tamarix gallica and herbal extracts of Capparis spinosa, Cichorium intybus, Solanum nigrum, Terminalia arjuna and Achillea millefolium) on liver cirrhosis outcomes was compared with the placebo for 6 months in 36 cirrhotic patients referred to Tehran Hepatic Center. The outcome measures included child-pugh score, ascites, serum alanine aminotransferase (ALT), aspartate aminotransferase (AST), total billirubin, albumin, prothrombin time, platelet and white blood cells counts. The indices were recorded in all patients before and after 6 months of drug or placebo treatment. The results demonstrated that the patients treated with Liv-52 for 6 months had significantly better child-pugh score, decreased ascites, decreased serum ALT and AST. In placebo administered patients all the clinical parameters recorded at beginning of the study were not significantly different than after 6 months. We conclude that Liv-52 possess hepatoprotective effect in cirrhotic patients. This protective effect of Liv-52 can be attributed to the diuretic, anti-inflammatory, anti-oxidative, and immunomodulating properties of the component herbs.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16194047

[atrollappears]

 The biggest issue with orals is that you're overworking the liver by putting a chemical through it that it is unable to break down easily.  This leads the liver to produce additional enzymes to aid in breaking down the substance (AST and ALT, which are often elevated in labs of those using oral hormones.)  Because the liver is working so hard to try to break these compounds down it can lead to inhibition in its ability to break down not only the hormone but everything else it is trying to deal with.  Another complicating factor is that the breakdown of 17aa hormones leads to the creation of 17-glucuronides which are toxic metabolites and which also (arguably) can lead to the majority of the negative liver effects seen with 17aas.   This also causes the liver to produce additional biles (called bile salts) which work to clear toxins out of the liver and into the excretory system.  When these bile sites become saturated they can stop working as effectively as they normal do and decrease or stop the production and elimination of bile from the liver.    Current research is inconclusive as to the mechanism of action that 17aa hormones exhibit which specifically causes this decrease in bile production and excretion. 

This decrease in the liver's ability to process and expel bile results in a condition known as choleostasis.  When a liver becomes choleostatic it greatly reduces or loses it's ability to process toxins out of itself.  This can lead to liver damage as toxins remain in the liver, causing continued damage to hepatic (liver cells) tissues.  This buildup can lead to lesions within the liver.    The liver responds by increasing enyzmatic activity (leading to higher AST/ALT levels) and the circle repeats unless treated.

Multiple studies indicate that after an extended period of oral steroid use clinical liver damage will occur, including  lesions, drug induced hepatitis and jaundice*.  However studies indicate that the extent of this damage is time and dose mediated, that is, if one is taking reasonable dosages for a period no greater than 2 months (although periods of up to 6 months have been observed with similar results) lasting damage should be non-existent. 

Current research indicates that if 17aa oral hormones are not used for extended periods and at sane dosages any changes in liver functioning (i.e. increased AST/ALT/Bilirubin values in labwork) should self correct with time.

 

TUDCA is effective at decreasing liver damage because when you take it it causes your body to more effectively create and clear bile in liver tissue, which moves toxins out of the liver.  TUDCA also increases the expression of certain proteins in the liver which are associated with pumping bile out of the liver, so it also helps in clearing other biles from the liver, allowing it to more effectively process all toxins coming through it.   Dosing protocol is 250mg-500mg per day for maintenance with doses for up to 1000mg per day if lab works indicates significantly elevated liver values.

 

[atrollappears]

12 hours ago, Krillin said:

 

What about reducing the stress on your liver when taking orals? 

NAC, Milk thistle etc?  Are the otc liver aid caps effective or just hippy shit? 

 

Also on a similar note, don't know if you guys use creatine at all but I read a study a while back citing that citric acid can break down creatine, so it might pay to avoid mixing your monohydrate with your morning OJ. 

 

Then what would happen when it comes in contact with stomach acids.. I think its a myth..lol