First cycle, HCG, AI and PCT questions.

[Krillin]

Howsit guys, been thinking about getting on the bike for a while now but had a couple goals I wanted to meet naturally first. Those goals have been met so now I think it's time. 

 

So I'm going to be running a basic test e only cycle in the new year and have a few noob questions. 

 

Will 150mg of test e twice a week be enough to be worthwhile?  (been told no more than 500mg/week but 300mg is quite a bit less) 

 

Do I need to take Hcg and an AI along with the test at such low dosages? 

 

I'm planning on taking nolva as pct, but a lot of beginner writeups recommend taking clomid as well as nolva, is this necessary? 

 

A little more info-

I'm 23yo 5'10" at around 83kg reasonably lean. 

 

I would be a running the test for ten weeks then 2 weeks off and start pct. 

 

Any info would be great. 

[Daz69]

22 hours ago, Krillin said:

Howsit guys, been thinking about getting on the bike for a while now but had a couple goals I wanted to meet naturally first. Those goals have been met so now I think it's time. 

 

So I'm going to be running a basic test e only cycle in the new year and have a few noob questions. 

 

Will 150mg of test e twice a week be enough to be worthwhile?  (been told no more than 500mg/week but 300mg is quite a bit less) 

 

Do I need to take Hcg and an AI along with the test at such low dosages? 

 

I'm planning on taking nolva as pct, but a lot of beginner writeups recommend taking clomid as well as nolva, is this necessary? 

 

A little more info-

I'm 23yo 5'10" at around 83kg reasonably lean. 

 

I would be a running the test for ten weeks then 2 weeks off and start pct. 

 

Any info would be great. 

 

In answer to your 3 questions :

 

Yes.. as a first cycle its enough..

No.. You may turn out to be sensitive to estrogen, but you won't know until you start..

At 300mg/week taper off, don't bother with PCT..

[Krillin]

46 minutes ago, Daz69 said:

 

In answer to your 3 questions :

 

Yes.. as a first cycle its enough..

No.. You may turn out to be sensitive to estrogen, but you won't know until you start..

At 300mg/week taper off, don't bother with PCT..

 

Even if I have access to PCT you still think it's probably not worth it?  

 

Should I taper by lowering the dosage or lowering the frequency? 

[Daz69]

18 hours ago, Krillin said:

 

Even if I have access to PCT you still think it's probably not worth it?  

 

Should I taper by lowering the dosage or lowering the frequency? 

 

At 300mg/week of testosterone only, the dose is enough for most people if diet and training are on track, but low enough to not generally need SERM's.... 

To manage any excess estrogen end of cycle, maybe take AI (adex 0.5mg E3rd day) for a week or so...

Taper by lowering the dose to half then half again...Off..!!

[Krillin]

1 hour ago, Daz69 said:

 

At 300mg/week of testosterone only, the dose is enough for most people if diet and training are on track, but low enough to not generally need SERM's.... 

To manage any excess estrogen end of cycle, maybe take AI (adex 0.5mg E3rd day) for a week or so...

Taper by lowering the dose to half then half again...Off..!!

 

Will my balls not shutdown during the cycle?  I thought I'd still need nolva or something to bring my natural test levels back up as fast as possible. 

[Pseudonym]

I can't answer your question, @Krillin (I'll leave that to the experts), but I just wanted to say well done! These may be noob questions - although I don't know the answers to them - but you've obviously done some research, and are asking your questions before you start.

 

Thank you!

[Daz69]

On 07/12/2015, 12:56:01, Krillin said:

 

Will my balls not shutdown during the cycle?  I thought I'd still need nolva or something to bring my natural test levels back up as fast as possible. 

 

Its difficult to answer specifically how your body will react, but generally speaking 10 weeks @ 300mg/week could likely cause some suppression but your HPTA should recover if you lower E2 end of cycle with an AI, whilst tapering off....  

SERM's have side effects too, so if possible its always best to employ minimal polypharmacy for maximal therapeutic effect..

[Krillin]

On 12/7/2015 at 9:50 PM, Pseudonym said:

I can't answer your question, @Krillin (I'll leave that to the experts), but I just wanted to say well done! These may be noob questions - although I don't know the answers to them - but you've obviously done some research, and are asking your questions before you start.

 

Thank you!

 

Thanks Pseu, that means a lot. I've been lurking here for a while and finally made an account to ask some questions. 

 

I think too many people just jump in and start pushing needles in without thinking. There's a reason these are prescription drugs and not otc. Our goal is supposed to be to improve our bodies, not f*ck them up. 

 

I know people with messed up endocrine systems and it causes some serious issues. 

Edited December 9, 2015 by Krillin
Spelling.

[Krillin]

23 hours ago, Daz69 said:

SERM's have side effects too, so if possible its always best to employ minimal polypharmacy for maximal therapeutic effect..

 

This is exactly why I was asking, I only want to take what is necessary. 

 

I'm thinking I might just run the test with AI and taper,  and then have at least nolva on hand if I feel I need it.

 

I have a family history of depression related to low test levels (father started trt this year after years of trouble)  so I'm also trying to avoid having low test levels for longer than necessary after a cycle. 

[Daz69]

4 hours ago, Krillin said:

 

This is exactly why I was asking, I only want to take what is necessary. 

 

I'm thinking I might just run the test with AI and taper,  and then have at least nolva on hand if I feel I need it.

 

I have a family history of depression related to low test levels (father started trt this year after years of trouble)  so I'm also trying to avoid having low test levels for longer than necessary after a cycle. 

 

Low testosterone can lead to low estrogen via reduced aromatisation...

 

Estrogen is known to induce changes in serotonin transmission, binding, and metabolism, and can have an overall facilitating effect on dopaminergic neurotransmission..

Serotonin and dopamine levels in the brain are relevant for mood control, mental state and cognition.. 

 

SERM's can significantly reduce estrogenic response, therefore have been implicated in depression... 

 

Nolvadex on a low dose testosterone only cycle would only be used in the very unlikely occurrence of gyno..

[Krillin]

You definitely seem to know your stuff Daz. 

 

So you would recommend I just taper off and run an AI (it would most likely be aromasin) at the end of the cycle?  Just the last month or so? 

 

Thanks a lot for your help btw. 

 

 

[Daz69]

3 hours ago, Krillin said:

You definitely seem to know your stuff Daz. 

 

So you would recommend I just taper off and run an AI (it would most likely be aromasin) at the end of the cycle?  Just the last month or so? 

 

Thanks a lot for your help btw. 

 

 

 

For most people on low/medium dose of testosterone only, it might be the best option...

[maccaz]

I would highly recommend avoiding nolvadex if prone to depression

[Daz69]

If coming off cycle it might be prudent to consider supplementing with taurine, as it seems that excess estrogen/aromatase activity and resulting free radicals in the testes cause much of the trouble  with HPTA supression..  Certain antioxidant/membrane stabilizers may help recovery too (NAC, ALA...)

 

Here's a paper discussing deca which is known to be very suppressive to HPTA:

 

Toxicol Appl Pharmacol. 2015 Feb 1;282(3):285-96.
Amelioration of nandrolone decanoate-induced testicular and sperm toxicity in rats by taurine: effects on steroidogenesis, redox and inflammatory cascades, and intrinsic apoptotic pathway.
Ahmed MA.

The wide abuse of the anabolic steroid nandrolone decanoate by athletes and adolescents for enhancement of sporting performance and physical appearance may be associated with testicular toxicity and infertility. On the other hand, taurine; a free β-amino acid with remarkable antioxidant activity, is used in taurine-enriched beverages to boost the muscular power of athletes. Therefore, the purpose of this study was to investigate the mechanisms of the possible protective effects of taurine on nandrolone decanoate-induced testicular and sperm toxicity in rats. To achieve this aim, male Wistar rats were randomly distributed into four groups and administered either vehicle, nandrolone decanoate (10mg/kg/week, I.M.), taurine (100mg/kg/day, p.o.) or combination of taurine and nandrolone decanoate, for 8 successive weeks. Results of the present study showed that taurine reversed nandrolone decanoate-induced perturbations in sperm characteristics, normalized serum testosterone level, and restored the activities of the key steroidogenic enzymes; 3β-HSD, and 17β-HSD. Moreover, taurine prevented nandrolone decanoate-induced testicular toxicity and DNA damage by virtue of its antioxidant, anti-inflammatory, and anti-apoptotic effects. This was evidenced by taurine-induced modulation of testicular LDH-x activity, redox markers (MDA, NO, GSH contents, and SOD activity), inflammatory indices (TNF-α, ICAM-1 levels, and MMP-9 gene expression), intrinsic apoptotic pathway (cytochrome c gene expression and caspase-3 content), and oxidative DNA damage markers (8-OHdG level and comet assay). In conclusion, at the biochemical and histological levels, taurine attenuated nandrolone decanoate-induced poor sperm quality and testicular toxicity in rats.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25542992

[HarryB]

That seems like taurine would have a lot of benefit both during and post cycle. 

 

How would the dosing on a rat compare to what a human guinea pig might try? How would we apply this?

[Krillin]

4 hours ago, maccaz said:

I would highly recommend avoiding nolvadex if prone to depression

 

 

After more reading I think I agree maccaz

[Krillin]

3 hours ago, Daz69 said:

If coming off cycle it might be prudent to consider supplementing with taurine, as it seems that excess estrogen/aromatase activity and resulting free radicals in the testes cause much of the trouble  with HPTA supression..  Certain antioxidant/membrane stabilizers may help recovery too (NAC, ALA...)

 

I remember reading that all the yanks on prohormones (when they were still otc)  would take taurine to help with sides. 

[Daz69]

2 hours ago, HarryB said:

That seems like taurine would have a lot of benefit both during and post cycle. 

 

How would the dosing on a rat compare to what a human guinea pig might try? How would we apply this?

 

Hi Harry... It depends on the rodent in question, but for Wistar Rats (which are commonly used) the dose should be multiplied by 0.162 to attain the human equivalent of the trial dose... 

1500mg-3000mg/day would be more realistic...

 

 

[Daz69]

And yes, taurine is frequently used on cycle as well to combat testicular atrophy...

[HarryB]

13 minutes ago, Daz69 said:

And yes, taurine is frequently used on cycle as well to combat testicular atrophy...

 

Anything to get my nuts back... ha ha ha 

 

Thanks man. I had read about using taurine but nothing this specific :) 

[Krillin]

1 hour ago, HarryB said:

 

Anything to get my nuts back... ha ha ha 

 

Thanks man. I had read about using taurine but nothing this specific :) 

Agreed haha looks like I'll supplementing taurine while on cycle. 

 

Do you have any other useful info like that Daz? 

[Pseudonym]

18 hours ago, Daz69 said:

SERM's can significantly reduce estrogenic response, therefore have been implicated in depression... 

Really? How does that work? I thought that AIs would reduce the estrogen, but not SERMs?

[Daz69]

2 hours ago, Pseudonym said:

Really? How does that work? I thought that AIs would reduce the estrogen, but not SERMs?

 

Hey Pseudo'.. I said reduce estrogenic response, via a SERM binding estrogen receptor as an antagonist..!! 

As opposed to an AI working via enzyme inhibition of CYP19A1, therefore reducing estrogen conversion from testosterone..

That said a SERM or an AI could induce depression, or in severe cases suicidal ideations...

[Pseudonym]

3 hours ago, Daz69 said:

Hey Pseudo'.. I said reduce estrogenic response, via a SERM binding estrogen receptor as an antagonist..!! 

See, in my mind (which may be quite wrong) I had it that SERMs stopped estrogen from binding to receptors in certain areas - like your tits - but they didn't stop the other effects of estrogen, like water retention. And I guess I lumped the brain into the "not-tits" category. So do SERMs effects extend beyond the tits, then?

[Daz69]

7 hours ago, Pseudonym said:

See, in my mind (which may be quite wrong) I had it that SERMs stopped estrogen from binding to receptors in certain areas - like your tits - but they didn't stop the other effects of estrogen, like water retention. And I guess I lumped the brain into the "not-tits" category. So do SERMs effects extend beyond the tits, then?

 

Tamoxifen is used in breast cancer for its binding ER-alpha,  and ER-beta but with less affinity.. Proliferation is halted by tamoxifen's negative effect on the alpha receptor, but estradiol is left in circulation to activate the beta receptor. This further inhibits proliferation (tissue growth) and increase differentiation. Terminal differentiation aborts the proliferative capacity of a cell. So each cell that terminally differentiates is one more cell that won't be replicating.

 

That's why Tamoxifen and Clomiphene are regarded as selective (via differing affinity for ER-alpha & ER-beta)..

 

If you look at some of the side effects such as increasing bone mineral density, retinopathy, fluid retention, reduced LDL cholesterol, reduced cognition, angioedema, negative effects to IGF-1 etc... It would appear Tamoxifen isn't specific to breast tissue...