PCT

[Tonkintechnique]

Although most people recommend hcg during I know of a few high level fighters who have been caught using hcg as a form of pct, il get back with the names I'm sure Chael Sonnen was one though.

[Riccardo]

Wouldn't bother with hCG, just taper. This thread has a great discussion on hCG, leydig cell desensitisation and PCT. In a nutt shell (no pun intended), leydig cell desensitisation is quite possible with hCG, only real use is to maintain testicular volume during cycle. Read this thread.

http://www.gymnation.co.nz/topic/16331-i-was-thinking/

[maccaz]

Riccardo and daz, after your input.

Few people i know (mostly idiots) have not done pct just stop cold turkey one day and have not had libido (apart from first couple of weeks) or fertility issues.

Is the necessity for pct exagerated or are these people just lucky ? I guess its just insurance

[Daz69]

Riccardo and daz, after your input.

Few people i know (mostly idiots) have not done pct just stop cold turkey one day and have not had libido (apart from first couple of weeks) or fertility issues.

Is the necessity for pct exagerated or are these people just lucky ? I guess its just insurance

 

Personally I don't bother with PCT, over the years I've prefered to taper off..

I have tried the nolva, clomid hCG protocol advised on early steroid boards..

 

I am aware at high doses hCG can desensitize leydig cells and potentially make recovery more difficult, at a relatively low dose I'm not too sure..?

 

On longer suppressive cycles I do wonder if low dose hCG might be of benefit for synthesis of pregnenolone and DHEA..?

 

If its your preference I have no problem optionally advising people to use HCG during cycle at doses between 150iu-250iu E3D or so (erring towards the lower end).

 

Personally I'd reserve the use for more suppressive cycles (heavier amounts, more compounds). A cycle of just 250-500mg Test or 20-40mg DBol, for example, I wouldn't recommend HCG unless they were really paranoid about recovery.

 

Where exactly would I draw the line with a recommendation?

 

Well that's a problem that I can't honestly answer, and neither can anyone else, no matter how much they claim to know on the subject. We don't have the studies to either prove or disprove the strategies advocated by most bodybuilders. And we probably never will do. It's all anecdote and hearsay with the odd case study thrown in here and there which many board gurus make way too much of. We can make an educated guess based on the science we do know and consistent anecdote, nothing more. That's why this argument has raged for the time I've been using PEDs, and you still have advocates on both sides.

 

I don't personally believe HCG is suppressive when used at relatively physiological (so to speak) levels. At higher levels, even with a SERM, I would be concerned about some degree of desensitisation. However, I am also not convinced it will necessarily improve recovery outcomes. On the one hand, large testes from HCG may not necessarily translate into raised endogenous testosterone [1], and on the other hand some compounds (e.g. Deca) are so suppressive and for such periods of time that it's questionable whether PCT of *any* kind is really worth it [2]. Mind you, this is not an argument to do nothing.

 

There are those that advocate attempting to control aromatase and keep oestrogen within a physiological range with an AI, even on fairly simple cycles, with an eye on a potentially easier recovery - Again, this is debatable, and of course even using an AI and using non-aromastisable AAS aromatase activity can still go AWOL and damage the testes [3]. I don't have an issue with people advocating a less interventionist approach (as in, do nothing unless side-effects become an issue) since both have their supporters and neither has the full weight of science.

 

The reality is all bodies react differently; probably as much as 50% of guys (from my own anecdotal experience) don't really need any PCT at all. Of the rest, 25% probably do benefit from standard PCT (with or without HCG during cycle), and the remaining 25% will struggle to recover no matter what they do.

 

One compound worth looking into in terms of a reasonable hormone recovery (sperm quality unknown) is triptorelin acetate. From a single injection with no other PCT whatsoever, from guys who've been on for years without a real break. Would I advocate this for everyone though? Would it still work if metabolites from e.g. Deca are present 6 months later? Hmm…

 

[1] http://www.excelmale....ticular-Volume

[2] http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21884791

[3] http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21769864

 

My thoughts on the use of nolva, clomid:

 

Clomid does more then act as an anti-estrogen in certain tissues. In the pituitary it acts as an estrogen, sensitizing pituitary cells to the actions of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH). This stimulates release of FSH & LH. Enclomid the active anti-estrogenic component of Clomid is as effective as Clomid in this regard.

 

Tamoxifen (an anti-estrogen) is completely ineffective.

 

Clomid mediates the positive effect at the estrogen receptor.

 

Both Clomid and tamoxifen are almost equally effective at binding to the pituitary estrogen receptor. As noted Tamoxifen has no estrogen mediated effect in terms of an ability to increase GnRH-stimulated release of FSH & LH. What it does is just occupy the receptors...or block them so that E2 or Clomid can not have a positive influence.

That isn't what we want in the first few weeks of PCT. That is why not to use Tamoxifen in those early weeks.

 

[Riccardo]

To answer your question macca I think the need for PCT is over exaggerated, yes. As Daz mentioned, I think there is probably a relatively safe dose of hCG you could use thats probably not going to cause a major concern for impaired leydig cell function but its also the pharmacokinetics of hCG that may br of concern, LH is normally pulsatile in its secretion hCG has a half life of 33hrs from memory. So while the ligand receptor interraction might be similar, its not the same signal your testes are used to. There are too many unknowns and with any type of drug therapy you want to avoid polypharmacy. Why take something that a) is not proven to actually be of significant benefit and b) may actually cause more harm than good.

I too know guys who have been on cycle stopped cold turkey and been fine. This probably has something to do with the fact there is no set dose where you can say alright everybody who takes this much will be shut down. I think there are examples in the literature where 600mg a week didnt result in shut down! As is the case with long ester testosterone, it normally provides somewhat of a taper anyway so stoping cold turkey means that in reality its going to take a week for your plasma levels of testosterone to fall to half anyway. If you are a relatively young healthy guy on a sensible cycle and there are no other androgens floating round in your system, stopping cold turkey probably isn't going to be the worst thing in the world. I wouldnt recommend it though.

[maccaz]

 As is the case with long ester testosterone, it normally provides somewhat of a taper anyway so stoping cold turkey means that in reality its going to take a week for your plasma levels of testosterone to fall to half anyway.

 

 

thanks guys.

I would say quoted is a key point, its not really cold turkey and level is going to drop relatively smoothly for say enanthate.

[New pome]

I think what daz says is right it depends on the individual person.

I really struggle if I stop with no pct after about 3 weeks of ending a cycle I start loosing a lot of strength and gaining a lot of fat and feel pretty crap this usually lasts for about 6 to 8 weeks, and then I start to slowly feel better.

I went to see a doctor of sports biochemistry in Spain, and he did me a personalised pct after a blood test every other day for 3 weeks he came up with a 4 week plan that I use now and it works great for me.

I have hardly any muscle or strength loss and always feel well and energetic.

Horses for corses, everyone's different its just finding what works best for you.

[Daz69]

I think what daz says is right it depends on the individual person.

I really struggle if I stop with no pct after about 3 weeks of ending a cycle I start loosing a lot of strength and gaining a lot of fat and feel pretty crap this usually lasts for about 6 to 8 weeks, and then I start to slowly feel better.

I went to see a doctor of sports biochemistry in Spain, and he did me a personalised pct after a blood test every other day for 3 weeks he came up with a 4 week plan that I use now and it works great for me.

I have hardly any muscle or strength loss and always feel well and energetic.

Horses for corses, everyone's different its just finding what works best for you.

 

Would you care to share that.. pls

[New pome]

Sure thing!

What was worked out for me was

Week 1 hcg 2500 mon & thu

150 clomifen every day

100 proviron every day

Week 2 hcg 2500 mon & thu

100 clomifen every day

75 proviron every day

Week 3 hcg 2500 mon & thu

75 clomifen every day

50 proviron every day

Then 10mg of tamoxifen for 7 days after the last day of the 3 weeks.

[Polo]

If your saying it's old school it must be fucking ancient lol. What would you recommend Daz?

Lol play nice :-p