PCT

[king]

Just have a quick question regarding PCT's. Iv been reading other forums regarding this and a lot of them state that Nolva and clomid should be used together with AI as well through out the PCT stage. My question is Clomid necessary or can you just run nolva and AI. Or does it depend on the cycle you run for example a simple test e should be ok with just nolva and AI as PCT. Also I had HCG as well when I was running my cycle but never used it, im guessing its highly recommend when using gear since my recover was a little slow. thanks

[maccaz]

seems like overseas forum always promote overkill pct, (or we underkill? dunno)

 

NZ forum say 20/20/10/10 Nolva

Aus forum say Nolva, Clomid, HCG through cycle, Aromasin

 

without having heaps of knowledge I would say the least drugs you can put in yourself for the result you want the better?

[king]

seems like overseas forum always promote overkill pct, (or we underkill? dunno)

 

NZ forum say 20/20/10/10 Nolva

Aus forum say Nolva, Clomid, HCG through cycle, Aromasin

 

without having heaps of knowledge I would say the least drugs you can put in yourself for the result you want the better?

whats your take on HCG I know your not suppose to use it during PCT cause it can be aromatising but everyone iv talked to says to use it during cycle but not PCT, so that recovery can be fast. my last PCT was just nolva and AI but the recovery was slow and I didn't use HCG, a lot of guys on the other forums stack three compounds on PCT, they say the correct protocol is nolva 40/40/20/20 , clomid 100/100/50/50 and AI (I used arimidex .5 EOD) through out the cycle and PCT

[maccaz]

i dont know enough about anything to say do it or dont, other people on here can give you good advice i dont know f*ck all.

 

 

but way i see it is i know heaps of people that are fucking idiots and didn't do pct just stopped one day or whatever even after being on for a long time, and none of them have complained of any particular bad low test symptoms after the first few weeks, some have had kids since etc.

 

i dunno for sure but i think a lot of the time the necessity for harsh high dose pct drugs is a bit exagerated (i could be completely wrong and will listen to anything anyone else has to say about it )

 

taper off makes sense to me also and I think Daz and Riccardo (wizards) recommend that as well?

[yeelang]

hcg run throughout cycle and a little nolva, I don't think the nolva is that useful if you have run hcg correctly, but I don't see the harm in it either.

 

I always finish cycles with 250mg test + dht compounds you should reallly run base test plus not aromatizing compounds until any hormone levels have returned to baseline.

 

people get caught out on tren most of the time, the metabolites of tren take ages to clear.

[king]

i dont know enough about anything to say do it or dont, other people on here can give you good advice i dont know f*ck all.

 

 

but way i see it is i know heaps of people that are fucking idiots and didn't do pct just stopped one day or whatever even after being on for a long time, and none of them have complained of any particular bad low test symptoms after the first few weeks, some have had kids since etc.

 

i dunno for sure but i think a lot of the time the necessity for harsh high dose pct drugs is a bit exagerated (i could be completely wrong and will listen to anything anyone else has to say about it )

 

taper off makes sense to me also and I think Daz and Riccardo (wizards) recommend that as well?

short term yes there wont be problem, but its the long term that can course problems, this is why a lot of forums set out protocols in terms of  PCT, AI's and length of time on gear

[Daz69]

whats your take on HCG I know your not suppose to use it during PCT cause it can be aromatising but everyone iv talked to says to use it, so that recovery can be fast. my last PCT was just nolva and AI but the recovery was slow and I didn't use HCG, a lot of guys on the other forums stack three compounds on PCT, they say the correct protocol is nolva 40/40/20/20 , clomid 100/100/50/50 and AI (I used arimidex .5 EOD) through out the cycle and PCT

 

There is strong suggestion hCG should not be used as part of PCT...

 

Ideally start with an AI in the last week of your cycle, that should be low dose test only...

Start with 50mg Clomiphene citrate (3 weeks).. Use 20mg Nolvadex (4 weeks) in the last week of Clomid.... 

Clomiphene stimulates the release of GnRH from the hypothalamus which then triggers release of FSH and LH from the anterior pituitary, causing the testes to produce testosterone... and yes, to a certain degree this does happen even when serum testosterone levels are augmented. However, this doesn't occur with other SERMs such as Tamoxifen, this is well documented in the literature.... Last few days of nolva use an AI...

[king]

hcg run throughout cycle and a little nolva, I don't think the nolva is that useful if you have run hcg correctly, but I don't see the harm in it either.

 

I always finish cycles with 250mg test + dht compounds you should reallly run base test plus not aromatizing compounds until any hormone levels have returned to baseline.

 

people get caught out on tren most of the time, the metabolites of tren take ages to clear.

only time i got told to use nolva during cycle is when using orals, such as dbol however your method works as well

[Daz69]

whats your take on HCG I know your not suppose to use it during PCT cause it can be aromatising but everyone iv talked to says to use it, so that recovery can be fast. 

 

HCG is suppressive of natural testosterone, because it takes the place of LH. LH is not the first step in the chain, instead its manufactured in the pituitary under the response of gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) secreted from the hypothalamus. Since a LH mimicking agent is supplied exogenously the negative feedback signal to the hypothalamus will tell it to stop making GnRH, so no natural LH is produced. Thats why we use potent estrogen receptor antagonist like clomid then nolvadex in PCT. When Androgen levels drop these antagonists lower estrogenic response creating a steroid defecit that signals the hypothalamus to start making GnRH. If HCG is used it should be discontinued 2 weeks before Nolva or Clomid or it will suppress natural test..

[king]

There is strong suggestion hCG should not be used as part of PCT...

 

Ideally start with an AI in the last week of your cycle, that should be low dose test only...

Start with 50mg Clomiphene citrate (3 weeks).. Use 20mg Nolvadex (4 weeks) in the last week of Clomid.... 

Clomiphene stimulates the release of GnRH from the hypothalamus which then triggers release of FSH and LH from the anterior pituitary, causing the testes to produce testosterone... and yes, to a certain degree this does happen even when serum testosterone levels are augmented. However, this doesn't occur with other SERMs such as Tamoxifen, this is well documented in the literature.... Last few days of nolva use an AI...

thanks bro, good info

[Daz69]

only time i got told to use nolva during cycle is when using orals, such as dbol however your method works as well

 

I thought there was evidence to show nolvadex on cycle can reduce IGF-1..?

[king]

I thought there was evidence to show nolvadex on cycle can reduce IGF-1..?

never herd of using nolva during cycle only when on orals, I was always told to use AI, ill research that tonight. peace

[Realtalk]

i dont know enough about anything to say do it or dont, other people on here can give you good advice i dont know f*ck all.

but way i see it is i know heaps of people that are fucking idiots and didn't do pct just stopped one day or whatever even after being on for a long time, and none of them have complained of any particular bad low test symptoms after the first few weeks, some have had kids since etc.

i dunno for sure but i think a lot of the time the necessity for harsh high dose pct drugs is a bit exagerated (i could be completely wrong and will listen to anything anyone else has to say about it )

taper off makes sense to me also and I think Daz and Riccardo (wizards) recommend that as well?

Yes, Agree.

[yeelang]

HCG is suppressive of natural testosterone, because it takes the place of LH. LH is not the first step in the chain, instead its manufactured in the pituitary under the response of gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) secreted from the hypothalamus. Since a LH mimicking agent is supplied exogenously the negative feedback signal to the hypothalamus will tell it to stop making GnRH, so no natural LH is produced. Thats why we use potent estrogen receptor antagonist like clomid then nolvadex in PCT. When Androgen levels drop these antagonists lower estrogenic response creating a steroid defecit that signals the hypothalamus to start making GnRH. If HCG is used it should be discontinued 2 weeks before Nolva or Clomid or it will suppress natural test..

 

HCG doesn't supress natural test, it stimulates natural test with external source of LH.. there is a huge difference. As the biggest factor of shutdown is leydigg cell sensitivity and shrinkage, the actual signal sent (from what I've seen) doesn't degrade significantly while shutdown,

 

you shoot hcg while on/pct to keep leydig cells full and operational then when it's time to switch off hcg (elevated levels of hormones reach normal levels) then you switch on the nolva.

 

Personally when i go off, hcg I don't feel a thing with or without nolva, the literature is there however so I run it.

 

I've also started experimenting with HMG for FSH but it's still quite pricey

[bang_bang]

I've been on for quite a while (20 weeks test+eq, 8 weeks 250mg test, 12 weeks test+deca) so i'm going to do a decent PCT and have a break for a good few months. I had a mate recommend this to me and i'd be curious to hear peoples opinions on it.

 

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.uk-muscle.co.uk%2Fsteroid-and-testosterone-information%2F102444-famous-power-pct-program-dr-michael-scally.html&h=JAQEGjEqd

[maccaz]

I've been on for quite a while (20 weeks test+eq, 8 weeks 250mg test, 12 weeks test+deca) so i'm going to do a decent PCT and have a break for a good few months. I had a mate recommend this to me and i'd be curious to hear peoples opinions on it.

 

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.uk-muscle.co.uk%2Fsteroid-and-testosterone-information%2F102444-famous-power-pct-program-dr-michael-scally.html&h=JAQEGjEqd

 

heaps of people in aus swear by power pct

i think even 1 or 2 people on here have done it in order to come off and get mrs pregnant. haven't heard of any cases of it not working tbh

 

one guy in aus forum had an endo basically say he had permanently bombed his natural production and would need trt for ever, 2x runs through power pct and back to natty levels and fertile as well, so it does definitely work in a lot of cases i would say

[Daz69]

I've been on for quite a while (20 weeks test+eq, 8 weeks 250mg test, 12 weeks test+deca) so i'm going to do a decent PCT and have a break for a good few months. I had a mate recommend this to me and i'd be curious to hear peoples opinions on it.

 

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.uk-muscle.co.uk%2Fsteroid-and-testosterone-information%2F102444-famous-power-pct-program-dr-michael-scally.html&h=JAQEGjEqd

 

Its kinda old school now... I believe there are better ways to PCT...

[bang_bang]

If your saying it's old school it must be fucking ancient lol. What would you recommend Daz?

[Daz69]

If your saying it's old school it must be fucking ancient lol. What would you recommend Daz?

 

Yeh.. I'm kinda old..

 

adex last few days of cycle

Week 1 Clomid 50mg

Week 2 Clomid 50mg

Week 3 Clomid 25mg

Week 4 Clomid 25mg + Nolva 20mg

Week 5 Nolva 20mg

Week 6 Nolva 10mg

Week 7 Nolva 10mg + Adex 0.5mg last few days

Week 8 Adex 0.5mg

OFF....

[king]

Yeh.. I'm kinda old..

 

adex last few days of cycle

Week 1 Clomid 50mg

Week 2 Clomid 50mg

Week 3 Clomid 25mg

Week 4 Clomid 25mg + Nolva 20mg

Week 5 Nolva 20mg

Week 6 Nolva 10mg

Week 7 Nolva 10mg + Adex 0.5mg last few days

Week 8 Adex 0.5mg

OFF....

do you not run any AI during the cycle? how do you control oestrogen during time on gear

[Daz69]

do you not run any AI during the cycle? how do you control oestrogen during time on gear

 

Only if high estrogen is an issue...

[GyzzBrah]

And how come no AI / nolva for like a month post cycle? Surely it will take long for the clomid to work leaving you with no test / high estrogen?

[Kalidane]

seems like overseas forum always promote overkill pct, (or we underkill? dunno)

 

NZ forum say 20/20/10/10 Nolva

Aus forum say Nolva, Clomid, HCG through cycle, Aromasin

 

without having heaps of knowledge I would say the least drugs you can put in yourself for the result you want the better?

 

 

Agree with that idea.  Less is better.  I'm sure there are studies that show this and that and the other thing so you better run 8 compounds blah blah.

 

Aromasin during and toremifene citrate after.  It works.

[GyzzBrah]

Dont want to make a new thread, but if you wanna test if your gear is real or not you get blood tests done before and after and then look at the difference right. But what if your not taking 'real testosterone' like deca, tren etc, will that still show up as part of serum test?

[Daz69]

And how come no AI / nolva for like a month post cycle? Surely it will take long for the clomid to work leaving you with no test / high estrogen?

 

AI in last week of cycle then last week of PCT..... I've already stated this....!!