Calling everyone who is living with Gyno or had personal experience with gyno

[mikehutton112]

My nipples have been sore for over a year but never really bothered me too much. But lately in last 5 months the lump + nipples have been tender and sore to a point where it is not possible to sleep on my stomach. Slightyl pressing my pecs(where the lump is) it hurts.

I've searched on this forum + others, also read some existing posts including few long write ups of 'daz' and 'atroll'. the lump was always there but never bothered me but now it is painful.

26 years old, 78kg, 5'6", 2 cycles, but regrettably my physique doens't look like I've had 2 cycles.
First cycle was 2.5 years ago, test e. (400mg/week)
Second cycle 1.5 years ago test e tren e with dbol kickstart. (cannot remember the dosages but was nothing high, I regret going into Tren on my 2nd cycle but too late, I learned the hard way)

Both these cycles were followed by PCT as stated in books and forums. I read heaps and followed the protocol as advised by people.

First cycle was great but second cycle I took the risk of running tren with no caber and started having prolactin issues. Followed PCT and everything was fine.

When the first lump started to come up, used Letro to get rid of it adn it worked to an extent. Due to change of circumstances, lifestyle, work couldn't train for a while and  But last 6 months the lump came back, I have tiny bit of Letro left but my dilemma is:

1. Should I leave it alone and let the body take care of hormone levels to bring back to homeostasis? Reason being if I use Letro and suppress eostrogen, once I'm off Letro will the Eostrogen come back with revenge and put me in a worse state?

2. Self medicate with Letro (I might have just enough for maybe 1 or 2 weeks, hopefully the expiry date is legit it says 2015 if i remember correct)

3. Go to a doc

[Realtalk]

Needa use nolva after letro bro else u get a bad rebound and gyno come back worse.

[mikehutton112]

Ok now that's something I didn't do, argh! So AAS induced gyno, use Letro followed by Nolva should fix the gyno? I know it's not as easy as that but I was about to lose all hope go kill myself because surgery is not affordable atm

 

[Daz69]

My nipples have been sore for over a year but never really bothered me too much. But lately in last 5 months the lump + nipples have been tender and sore to a point where it is not possible to sleep on my stomach. Slightyl pressing my pecs(where the lump is) it hurts.

I've searched on this forum + others, also read some existing posts including few long write ups of 'daz' =  'atroll'. lol..the lump was always there but never bothered me but now it is painful.

First cycle was 2.5 years ago, test e. (400mg/week)

Second cycle 1.5 years ago test e tren e with dbol kickstart. 

Both these cycles were followed by PCT 

First cycle was great but second cycle I took the risk of running tren with no caber and started having prolactin issues. Followed PCT and everything was fine.

When the first lump started to come up, used Letro to get rid of it  But last 6 months the lump came back, I have tiny bit of Letro left but my dilemma is:

1. Should I leave it alone and let the body take care of hormone levels to bring back to homeostasis? Reason being if I use Letro and suppress eostrogen, once I'm off Letro will the Eostrogen come back with revenge and put me in a worse state?

I've highlighted a few points that give me concern...

Tren-E, how often did you pin/week..?

Dbol kickstart is a bad practice based upon misinterpretation of a frontload (frontload = double the normal dose in the first week of the compound(s) you will be using throughout the cycle) adding dbol could create elevated E2 issues, not something you want with Tren...

What PCT did you follow, and how soon after cessation of Tren/Test..?

Letro is advised on some boards for gyno, bollocks..!!

Nolvadex is advised by medical professionals for gyno related issues.. I've explained nolvas action on ER-a and ER-b, extensively in another thread, maybe under atrollappears..?

Gyno removal = Nolvadex....

 

 

 

 

[Realtalk]

Yeah I had big lumps under both nipples with fatty tissue spreading across pec towards armpit and used letro @ 2.5mg/day for 14 days letro @ 1.25mg/day for 7 days then onto nolva @ 20mg/day for 14 days then nolva @ 10mg/day for 7 days.

there are various protocols in regards to the days and dosage but all pretty much of a muchness. So that was 6 weeks which is pretty harsh on your body especially the letrozole. I didn't bother training at all really... one because I was so weak and secondly because I had no motivation I still stayed on cycle though. Every spare moment I had I just felt like lying down. It's not good to use often that is why I do properly one off. My lumps didn't start to dissicapate until late into the 3rd week of the letrozole, and over the nolva period it just continued to waste away to nothing. So it's not a quick thing, touching and squeezing, running to check if sore or not just aggravates and makes the gyno worse. So best to just forget about it while taking the letro.

now I have small lump come back under right nipple, left one is nothing. But that is under control with nolvadex occasionally and is not sore at all, not noticeable either it's tiny.

letro doesn't work for everyone's gyno but it sounds like it did for you so use nolva afterwards and you should finish up happy and gyno free.

[Realtalk]

My nipples have been sore for over a year but never really bothered me too much. But lately in last 5 months the lump + nipples have been tender and sore to a point where it is not possible to sleep on my stomach. Slightyl pressing my pecs(where the lump is) it hurts.

I've searched on this forum + others, also read some existing posts including few long write ups of 'daz' =  'atroll'. lol..the lump was always there but never bothered me but now it is painful.

First cycle was 2.5 years ago, test e. (400mg/week)

Second cycle 1.5 years ago test e tren e with dbol kickstart. 

Both these cycles were followed by PCT 

First cycle was great but second cycle I took the risk of running tren with no caber and started having prolactin issues. Followed PCT and everything was fine.

When the first lump started to come up, used Letro to get rid of it  But last 6 months the lump came back, I have tiny bit of Letro left but my dilemma is:

1. Should I leave it alone and let the body take care of hormone levels to bring back to homeostasis? Reason being if I use Letro and suppress eostrogen, once I'm off Letro will the Eostrogen come back with revenge and put me in a worse state?

I've highlighted a few points that give me concern...

Tren-E, how often did you pin/week..?

Dbol kickstart is a bad practice based upon misinterpretation of a frontload (frontload = double the normal dose in the first week of the compound(s) you will be using throughout the cycle) adding dbol could create elevated E2 issues, not something you want with Tren...

What PCT did you follow, and how soon after cessation of Tren/Test..?

Letro is advised on some boards for gyno, bollocks..!!

Nolvadex is advised by medical professionals for gyno related issues.. I've explained nolvas action on ER-a and ER-b, extensively in another thread, maybe under atrollappears..?

Gyno removal = Nolvadex....

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry edit, it is my understanding letro does get rid of gyno lump. Existing lumps won't be broken down by nolvadex. 

[Realtalk]

Inb4 3000 word copy paste that I cannot understand lol

[mikehutton112]

Sh*t so Letro does nothing for gyno?

Mind you the lump appears to be there, I always believed Nolva is used more on a to be safe but Letro is used to 'reverse' / fix gyno once it's already formed.

[Realtalk]

Sh*t so Letro does nothing for gyno?

Mind you the lump appears to be there, I always believed Nolva is used more on a to be safe but Letro is used to 'reverse' / fix gyno once it's already formed.

bro u just used letro and got rid of it then it came back... So no need to ask that question! Cause u already found it out lol use nolva after and wouldn't have come back.

nolva get rid of and prevent the start of lumps like pea sized lumps... Nolva ain't gonna do shit for a grape sized lump that has formed over a duration of months or the cycle.

dunno who'd argue with that.

 

[Realtalk]

Sh*t so Letro does nothing for gyno?

Mind you the lump appears to be there, I always believed Nolva is used more on a to be safe but Letro is used to 'reverse' / fix gyno once it's already formed.

bro u just used letro and got rid of it then it came back... So no need to ask that question! Cause u already found it out lol use nolva after and wouldn't have come back.

nolva get rid of and prevent the start of lumps like pea sized lumps... Nolva ain't gonna do shit for a grape sized lump that has formed over a duration of months or the cycle.

dunno who'd argue with that.

 

[Daz69]

Letro does get rid of gyno lump. Existing lumps won't be broken down by nolvadex. 

Letro is an AI all it does is block the conversion from Test to Estrogen via the aromatase enzyme..

Nolvadex works by two mechanisms at ER-a and ER-b.... The AI will reduce levels of estrogen, whereas a SERM will increase it short term only.. the SERM is keeping estrogens from binding receptor via ER-a, the result is the same proliferation is halted.. The reason Nolvadex is preferred is ER-b..... Both ER-a + ER-b are stimulated by estrogen but have different roles.. The ER-a causes proliferation of cells, ER-b inhibits proliferation and increases differentation, or the maturing process into a fully functioning cell.. The net result is proliferation is halted by Nolvadex's negative effect on ER-a, but estradiol is left in circulation to activate ER-b, further inhibiting proliferation (tissue growth) and increasing differentation..

Terminal differentation aborts the proliferative capacity of a cell. So each cell that terminally differentiates is one more cell that won't be replicating.. These cells now await apoptosis at the hand of androgen mediated action....

Nolvadex treatment must continue for some time to be effective, nolva inhibits growth of breast tissue, but it does not reduce it on its own. This is mediated by your androgen levels as a male and as an AAS user, these cells do not dissolve they are ultimately destroyed by genomic signals. On top of that are the rebound effects, nolva does not address circulating estrogen, so an AI (aromasin preferred) in the last week or so of nolva will combat this....

fucking typed that with one finger, i better get kudos..!! 

[Daz69]

Inb4 3000 word copy paste that I cannot understand lol

Cheeky bastard, I've spent ages typing with one bloody finger,, I've now got writers crap.. 

Thomas ****** ***** ********..!!

[Realtalk]

Where's ur other finger... Up ur bottom?

So what u saying bout letro and mid-long term developed gyno?

[Daz69]

Where's ur other finger... Up ur bottom?

So what u saying bout letro and mid-long term developed gyno?

On my trigger finger...

Knife...............

[Pseudonym]

I gave you kudos for that post, Daz. And there's more kudos to give to the person who translates it for me.

[mikehutton112]

Hi Daz

You mentioned Letro for gyno is bollocks and

Gyno removal = Nolvadex.

Later I feel like you contradicted yourself by saying Nolva only inhibits gyno growth so it doesn't do anything for existing cells, reduction of existing gyno depends on "your androgen levels".

Firstly could you please shed some light on

1. Letro vs Nolva (reason being letro is harsh, logically why would I use letro if Nolva can do the same job).

2. Please explain the "androgenic levels" you mentioned earlier.

Apologies in advance just in case if you feel like I'm criticizing you, I'm not. Just want to learn. Thanks!

[Realtalk]

Brother... Nolvadex not get rid of developed gynocomastia, letro for this (which may still not work if gyno is very developed) then switch to nolvadex to prevent estrogen rebound. If you stop the letro cold turkey your gyno just going to come back most likley worse.

Or get it cut out. However, getting gyno cut out and gland removed is only going to do exactly that. Your still going to have high estrogen just no gyno. So alot of ppl think oh yeah I'll just get it cut out when that's not actually solving the problem.

My suggestion get some nolva and do the letro protocol again followed by nolva then you'll be sweet. U even said the letro worked before then it came back when u stopped? 

Too easy.

[Daz69]

Hi Daz

You mentioned Letro for gyno is bollocks and

Gyno removal = Nolvadex.

Later I feel like you contradicted yourself by saying Nolva only inhibits gyno growth so it doesn't do anything for existing cells, reduction of existing gyno depends on "your androgen levels".

Firstly could you please shed some light on

1. Letro vs Nolva (reason being letro is harsh, logically why would I use letro if Nolva can do the same job).

2. Please explain the "androgenic levels" you mentioned earlier.

Apologies in advance just in case if you feel like I'm criticizing you, I'm not. Just want to learn. Thanks!

I'm being quick because I've got to go out:

Here's some science behind the mechanism of Nolvadex, in particular its affinity for ER-alpha + beta, plus the references, they will explain the science of going on better than I can:

The best way to treat gyno acutely is with a SERM (Selective estrogen receptor modulator), tamoxifen being the most used and best studied. Tamoxifen willblock the Estrogen receptor alpha in breast tissue, the receptor that plays the most important role in breast cell proliferation (replication) [8]. Because it stops the actions of circulating estrogens at the receptor its effect will be somewhat faster than those of aromatase inhibitors, which will take some time to reduce circulating estrogen and start having an effect.  The AI will reduce the level of estrogens, whereas a SERM will increase it (short term only), because the SERM is keeping the estrogens from binding the receptor. The end result with regards to estrogen receptor alpha is the same however : no estrogens are activating this receptor, so proliferation is halted. The reason we prefer tamoxifen however is because there is a second estrogen receptor, estrogen receptor beta. Both are stimulated similarly by estradiol (the primary estrogen)  but have different roles. Estradiol shows a slightly higher affinity for the alpha receptor. This is actually how estrogenic effects are regulated. The alpha receptor causes proliferation of cells, the beta receptor inhibits proliferation and increases differentiation, or the maturing process into a fully functioning cell. So when estrogen increases proliferation starts, and when it reaches a certain threshold more binds to the more abundant beta receptor slowing proliferation and increasing differentiation. This is relevant because though tamoxifen also binds the beta receptor it does so with less affinity than estradiol and its unclear as to whether it activates or blocks the beta receptor. The net result is that proliferation is halted by tamoxifen's negative effect on the alpha receptor, but estradiol is left in circulation to activate the beta receptor. The beta receptor offers us several benefits but here specifically it will further inhibit proliferation (tissue growth) and increase differentiation. Terminal differentiation aborts the proliferative capacity of a cell. So each cell that terminally differentiates is one more cell that won't be replicating. These cells now await apoptosis (cell death) at the hand of androgen-mediated action..... [2,3,10,15,17,18,25,...]. 

2.Zhou J, Ng S, Adesanya-Famuiya O, Anderson K, Bondy CA. Testosterone inhibits estrogen-induced mammary epithelial proliferation and suppresses estrogen receptor expression. FASEB J. 2000 Sep;14(12):1725-30.

3. Kandouz M, Lombet A, Perrot JY, Jacob D, Carvajal S, Kazem A, Rostene W, Therwath A, Gompel A. Proapoptotic effects of antiestrogens, progestins and androgen in breast cancer cells. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 1999 Apr-Jun;69(1-6):463-71. 

 

8. Saji S, Jensen EV, Nilsson S, Rylander T, Warner M, Gustafsson J-? 2000 Estrogen receptors  and ? in the rodent mammary gland. Proc Natl Acad Sci Global 97:337?342

 

10. Dimitrakakis C, Zhou J, Wang J, Belanger A, LaBrie F, Cheng C, Powell D, Bondy C. A physiologic role for testosterone in limiting estrogenic stimulation of the breast. Menopause. 2003 Jul-Aug;10(4):292-8

15. Hofling M, L?fgren L, von Schoultz E, Carlstr?m K, S?derqvist G. Associations between serum testosterone levels, cell proliferation and progesterone receptor content in normal and malignant breast tissue in postmenopaGloball women. Gynecol Endocrinol. 2008 Jul;24(7):405-10

17. Tiefenbacher K., Daxenbichler G. The Role of Androgens in Normal and Malignant Breast Tissue. Breast Care 2008;3:325-331

18.Herbert DC, Schuppler J, Poggel A, G?nzel P, El Etreby MF. Effect of cyproterone acetate on prolactin secretion in the female rhesus monkey. Cell and Tissue Research. 1977 Sep; 183 (1):51-60.

25. Blanco A, Moya L, Flores R, Ag?era E, Monterde JG. Effects of anabolic implants of oestradiol alone or in combination with trenbolone acetate on the ultrastructure of mammary glands in female lambs regarding their interference in prolactin secretion. J Vet Med A Physiol Pathol Clin Med. 2002 Feb;49(1):13-7.

 

Abstract

Androgens, like estrogens, can be synthesized in the breast. As both active androgens and their corresponding receptors are present in breast tissue, we conclude that they play a role in breast physiology. This is supported by the fact that insufficient androgen production or sensitivity results in the development of gynecomastia. Complete androgen insensitivity due to receptor defects leads to normal female breast development in these XY women. While breast development is completely inhibited by male testosterone levels, partial but not total degradation of a developed breast by androgen treatment appears to be possible. Breast cancer in early stages seems to fulfill the prerequisites of androgen responsiveness. Androgen treatment of advanced breast cancer has shown similar effectiveness as anti-estrogen or estrogen-ablative therapy, but also considerable side effects. It has been speculated that the use of selective androgen modulators (SARMs), either alone or preferably in addition to anti-estrogens or aromatase inhibitors, may be a promising alternative to current therapy modalities in hormone-dependent breast cancer. In addition, future studies on the use of SARMs in prophylactic settings seem to be justified.

https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/158055

Testosterone inhibits estrogen-induced mammary epithelial proliferation and suppresses estrogen receptor expression.

Zhou J1, Ng S, Adesanya-Famuiya O, Anderson K, Bondy CA.

Author information

 

Abstract

This study investigated the effect of sex steroids and tamoxifen on primate mammary epithelial proliferation and steroid receptor gene expression. Ovariectomized rhesus monkeys were treated with placebo, 17beta estradiol (E2) alone or in combination with progesterone (E2/P) or testosterone (E2/T), or tamoxifen for 3 days. E2 alone increased mammary epithelial proliferation by approximately sixfold (P:<0.0001) and increased mammary epithelial estrogen receptor (ERalpha) mRNA expression by approximately 50% (P:<0.0001; ERbeta mRNA was not detected in the primate mammary gland). Progesterone did not alter E2's proliferative effects, but testosterone reduced E2-induced proliferation by approximately 40% (P:<0.002) and entirely abolished E2-induced augmentation of ERalpha expression. Tamoxifen had a significant agonist effect in the ovariectomized monkey, producing a approximately threefold increase in mammary epithelial proliferation (P:<0.01), but tamoxifen also reduced ERalpha expression below placebo level. Androgen receptor (AR) mRNA was detected in mammary epithelium by in situ hybridization. AR mRNA levels were not altered by E2 alone but were significantly reduced by E2/T and tamoxifen treatment. Because combined E2/T and tamoxifen had similar effects on mammary epithelium, we investigated the regulation of known sex steroid-responsive mRNAs in the primate mammary epithelium. E2 alone had no effect on apolipoprotein D (ApoD) or IGF binding protein 5 (IGFBP5) expression, but E2/T and tamoxifen treatment groups both demonstrated identical alterations in these mRNAs (ApoD was decreased and IGFBP5 was increased). These observations showing androgen-induced down-regulation of mammary epithelial proliferation and ER expression suggest that combined estrogen/androgen hormone replacement therapy might reduce the risk of breast cancer associated with estrogen replacement. In addition, these novel findings on tamoxifen's androgen-like effects on primate mammary epithelial sex steroid receptor expression suggest that tamoxifen's protective action on mammary gland may involve androgenic effects.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10973921

 

[mikehutton112]

Realtalk and Daz you guys both make valid points.

Realtalk - I'm not ignoring your advice, lots of internet boards say Letro reverses gyno full stop. But if what Daz says is true, why wouldn't anyone pick Nolva over Letro considering Letro made me feel horrible, just like you said you felt like sh*t as well while on it.

 

Daz - Say Nolva does inhibits further growth of cells. "These cells now await apoptosis (cell death) at the hand of androgen-mediated action....." What is this androgen mediated action you referring to?

[Realtalk]

Realtalk - I'm not ignoring your advice, lots of internet boards say Letro reverses gyno full stop. But if what Daz says is true, why wouldn't anyone pick Nolva over Letro considering Letro made me feel horrible, just like you said you felt like sh*t as well while on it.

Maybe cause doesn't work mate. That's normally why people don't do things

[Realtalk]

I'm saying what works for me and works for everyone I told to do it. I can't post a study for you partly cause I dunno where to look and I dnt read that shit.

let know what u do and how it works tho bro

[yeelang]

for me personally the key to not getting gyno on tren is just to keep your E2 really low from the beginning. If you dont it just becomes a cluster f*ck that Nolva can't fix acutely. Both progesterone and prolactin have been shown to cause gyno and there is research showing tren accelerating breast cancer growth.

 

I'm not sure on the direct mechanics of it, but it appears high E2 with progesterone is where you don't want to be and tren accelerates whatever is happening. Keep your E2 low from the beginning and you won't get any problems imo. 

 

There is actually a drug out there that inhibits tren bidning to the progesterone receptor, I never followed up what this meant for tren sides because the study said it reduced the binding affinity of tren to AR.

 

[mikehutton112]

Breast cancer growth. Oh fukc.

[Realtalk]

Breast cancer growth. Oh fukc.

Gyno not turn into breast cancer.

 

stop scaring this guy ffs lol

[Daz69]

Realtalk and Daz you guys both make valid points.

Realtalk - I'm not ignoring your advice, lots of internet boards say Letro reverses gyno full stop. But if what Daz says is true, why wouldn't anyone pick Nolva over Letro considering Letro made me feel horrible, just like you said you felt like sh*t as well while on it.

 

Daz - Say Nolva does inhibits further growth of cells. "These cells now await apoptosis (cell death) at the hand of androgen-mediated action....." What is this androgen mediated action you referring to?

I take it you've either not read, or understood the paper above..?

Progesterone did not alter E2's proliferative effects, but testosterone reduced E2-induced proliferation by approximately 40% (P:<0.002) and entirely abolished E2-induced augmentation of ERalpha expression. 

These observations showing androgen-induced down-regulation of mammary epithelial proliferation and ER expression suggest that combined estrogen/androgen hormone replacement therapy might reduce the risk of breast cancer associated with estrogen replacement. In addition, these novel findings on tamoxifen's androgen-like effects on primate mammary epithelial sex steroid receptor expression suggest that tamoxifen's protective action on mammary gland may involve androgenic effects.