Mentzer / yates heavy duty training method.

[poos_n_wees]

Awesome, thanks guys.

[Peter Knappy]

I have used this style and found it very good, I got up to a body weight of 116kg at 16% fat and was doing things like a 220kg squat for 15 reps go for it and resist the temptation to add sets you just don't need to

[Peter Knappy]

What is all this warm up rubbish. If you can lift 205 for 5 Reps and have already done a few warm ups then why would you lift 185 for 1. What a waste of time the beauty of this whole system is quick and to the point it is. once your warm your warm. do a couple light warm ups and hit it hard man and reps are 6-10 on work sets its a bodybuiding routine man get in hit it hard and get out. I was doing Arms and Legs in about 30min

[IronGame]

I have used the heavy duty style training before, I got very good results for the first 2-3 weeks then started to plato.

I was using the tri-set method outlined in Mentzer's Heavy Duty book

1 body part/day 3exercises 1 set of each to negative failure, using pre-exaustion NO rest between exercises.

E.g. leg's day. Extensions then Leg press then Smith Squats.

Leg's took me about 7 min's and then about 40min lying on the ground and vomiting :shock: Honestly!

[IronGame]

This is extremely hard on the CNS assuming you are an advanced trainee

If you are not you wont have the motor nuron connection to get much out of it.

I could have kept up with it and keept making gains but would have to push my workouts further and further apart to recover properly,

Mentzer advocated this and at times could only train each bodypart once a month or less!

[joelbell]

hey irongame, some strength coaches reckon HIT only works for a few weeks because they are allowing enough time to rest and recover from the months maybe even years of training, which allows them to grow. they call it dual factor theory, so where mentzer wants people to wait until you supercompensate before training again, other coaches actually believe we can accumulate fatigue slowly and then take some time off and then a lot of growth in strength and size will occur.

[IronGame]

hey irongame, some strength coaches reckon HIT only works for a few weeks because they are allowing enough time to rest and recover from the months maybe even years of training, which allows them to grow. they call it dual factor theory, so where mentzer wants people to wait until you supercompensate before training again, other coaches actually believe we can accumulate fatigue slowly and then take some time off and then a lot of growth in strength and size will occur.

I think the main difference there is that strength athletes improve via gaining stronger/clearer motor nuron and centural nervous system parthways not increased muscle mass, where BBers rely much less on these parthways and the main goal is hypertrophy.

I do agree that accummlative fatigue training works but I am not convinced that it is the most efficient way to consistantly gain size.

Good way to buts through a platao though for sure

[ExpensiveUrine]

I think the main difference there is that strength athletes improve via gaining stronger/clearer motor nuron and centural nervous system parthways not increased muscle mass, where BBers rely much less on these parthways and the main goal is hypertrophy.

What happens to strength athletes who are huge?

While strength athletes get stronger due to improved NS synchronization, rate coding, ect. they also get stronger due to enlargement of contractile structures within the muscles (skeletal muscle hypertrophy), provided they eat food. Of course if you eat at maintenance (just an example) your bodyweight won't change regardless of what type of training you do. Strength athletes that have to compete in a weight grade for whatever sport will purposely monitor their food intake in order to control their bodyweight, so then an athlete in question will primarily focus on engaging his/her nervous system at that bodyweight to gain/maintain strength. But if that strength athlete eats some food, he/she will gain strength and hypertrophy, although the emphasis will still be on strength in training with hypertrophy being a by-product of that training. Same thing with bodybuilding, you can "pump and tone or whatever the new slang is" 'til your b*lls are blue, but if you don't eat you won't grow. As a bodybuilder you would be emphasizing hypertrophy work over strength work that strength athletes do (ie. very high intensity work) to stress more peripheral factors (muscle) and not so much central factors (nervous system), BUT you should still be getting stronger over time (increasing weight in training over time. This doesn't mean you should be doing near max loads every training session). I can quarantee that if you're not getting stronger over time (doing weights of the same intensity over time) you won't get much bigger in terms of muscular hypertrophy.

EDIT:

Supercompensation (single-factor) theory is outdated now anyway. Dual-factor for teh winz. I just can't bring myself to think how anyone can think that training once a month can be productive for hypertrophy.

Except Peter Knappy, because he-she is just awesome and overrides any training principles in the quest for hugeness.

[IronGame]

I think the main difference there is that strength athletes improve via gaining stronger/clearer motor nuron and centural nervous system parthways not increased muscle mass, where BBers rely much less on these parthways and the main goal is hypertrophy.

What happens to strength athletes who are huge?

While strength athletes get stronger due to improved NS synchronization, rate coding, ect. they also get stronger due to enlargement of contractile structures within the muscles (skeletal muscle hypertrophy), provided they eat food. Of course if you eat at maintenance (just an example) your bodyweight won't change regardless of what type of training you do. Strength athletes that have to compete in a weight grade for whatever sport will purposely monitor their food intake in order to control their bodyweight, so then an athlete in question will primarily focus on engaging his/her nervous system at that bodyweight to gain/maintain strength. But if that strength athlete eats some food, he/she will gain strength and hypertrophy, although the emphasis will still be on strength in training with hypertrophy being a by-product of that training. Same thing with bodybuilding, you can "pump and tone or whatever the new slang is" 'til your b*lls are blue, but if you don't eat you won't grow. As a bodybuilder you would be emphasizing hypertrophy work over strength work that strength athletes do (ie. very high intensity work) to stress more peripheral factors (muscle) and not so much central factors (nervous system), BUT you should still be getting stronger over time (increasing weight in training over time. This doesn't mean you should be doing near max loads every training session). I can quarantee that if you're not getting stronger over time (doing weights of the same intensity over time) you won't get much bigger in terms of muscular hypertrophy.

EDIT:

Supercompensation (single-factor) theory is outdated now anyway. Dual-factor for teh winz. I just can't bring myself to think how anyone can think that training once a month can be productive for hypertrophy.

Except Peter Knappy, because he-she is just awesome and overrides any training principles in the quest for hugeness.

There is no doubt that in the ques to become bigger you must enevitably become stronger, but the opposite does not nessesarily apply

Anyway we seem to be getting way off topic now, but it seems to be the general consencus that heavy duty training methods are not the best way for long term muscle hypertrophy, well at least not for everyone.

[joelbell]

hey expensive urine, u mentioned why heavy duty/HIT trainers think that there method of training once a week/fortnight/month is effective? i think they were lead to believe that muscles size isn't dependent on how often you train, or how many sets you do but the total weight you lift. mentzer always talks about how u need to get stronger in order to get bigger muscles. so i guess they say that it doesnt matter if u train a muscle once every 3 weeks as long as u progressed, u have gotten stronger and therefore the contractile portion of the muscle has increased in size.

[ExpensiveUrine]

i think they were lead to believe that muscles size isn't dependent on how often you train, or how many sets you do but the total weight you lift.

And that's where they've gone wrong.

[FastFreddy]

interesting....if you watch Dorian Yates "Blood and Guts" you will see he does in fact do more than one set per exercise (with quite significant weights) - granted he eventually does an all out high intensity set BUT how many sets can we call warmup sets when they all seem to increase in weight and decrease in reps and hence thats how he gets his training volume.....doesnt look anything special to me. 'One set' thats got to be a myth :?

\hi ya deepsouth

yates did spend time a mentzer camp,he got great results there too.but when he returned he added more volume to his heavy duty workouts,and started throwing the weights,

mike did do failing sets eg...,great mass results,it wasnt a 1 set workout but more like 5-8 total sets including warmup,

[FastFreddy]

I have used this style and found it very good, I got up to a body weight of 116kg at 16% fat and was doing things like a 220kg squat for 15 reps go for it and resist the temptation to add sets you just don't need to

good on ya peter!

nice to see there a few active minded trainers out there!

[FastFreddy]

Anyone ever tried this style of training, if so what was the result?

I'm gonna give it a go for the next few weeks and see what happens.

morning Dimond,so the new book is good?

hi have h/d1,h/d2,hit m/m way,the new hit,and they are all good reading.

[joelbell]

good on peter! it does work ,its just hard to say which style of training gives the quicker results. good for the time strapped. a lot of people say the positive results come from the training that a person has already done, and that they are just coming out from the rest given. i think after that happens a plateau comes along.

[FastFreddy]

morning Gents.

I have to say: it seem , a lot of ppl think they know how to practice HIT, and say your only get results for a short time or not at all or this is a old theory and its out dated,

im sorry to say theres a hell of a lot more to HIT than most of you think.

one cant judge some think he or she cant understand,

Intensity,Progression,Form,Duration,Frequency and order.

heres a saying of Arthur Jones once said!:How old am i?Old enough to know its impossible to change the thinking of fools,but young and foolish enough to keep trying!

And im not implying that i know it all ether guy,if i thought that id never learn anything or grow to understand it fully.

ive studyed the heavy duty system for 12 years now,after going to work every day as a young chap ,rewrighting my program at lunch time every day thinking there must be a way to get result! id train up to 7 days a week,tryed a lil gear,spent shitloads of cash on magic heathshop shit,i remember and still have a daily from training back then.25 hours a week i did,2.5 hours morn and night mon,wens, and fri,3 hours tuse,thurs,and sat.

i remeber reading mike adds in muscle mags,then i got a old body building book witch had some basics of hit in it,

now after all this time,and living ,breathing and owning a gym for seaven years,i cant say i know it all,but i know a hell of a lot more now than then!

and a nother think that i have to bring up,is results do slw in hit works ive found ,Due to lack of direction! pll seem to fall off the rails cause its so dam hard,and you must have some one to train with that under stands hit,every set counts,and if your having a off day your training partner needs to know how to get a fire burning,i have to go home from work,sit there having a super strough coffy and get so worked up like a mad man,walk in the door at the gym,take some thormos,grap my program ive already made up,and get stuck in with me training buddy thats trained on and off with me for 10 years,if i dont have all these things set,ill fail before i started the workout.

[Cammo]

:pfft:

[FastFreddy]

never be so arrogant that you fail to give ppl the benefit of being as stupid as they actuallay are!

[Cammo]

never be so arrogant that you fail to give ppl the benefit of being as stupid as they actuallay are!

You're a real wordsmith

I'm sure under that tough exterior of yours there's a sense of humour just gagging for air.

[poos_n_wees]

What is all this warm up rubbish. If you can lift 205 for 5 Reps and have already done a few warm ups then why would you lift 185 for 1. What a waste of time the beauty of this whole system is quick and to the point it is. once your warm your warm. do a couple light warm ups and hit it hard man and reps are 6-10 on work sets its a bodybuiding routine man get in hit it hard and get out. I was doing Arms and Legs in about 30min

Its not so much about just getting "warm", but preparing the CNS for the onslaught its about to receive

If I thought I could do 205x5, the heavy single in the warmup wouldn't be 185x1 but something like 210x1. Then I'd do the 205x5 if that makes any sense.

[ExpensiveUrine]

Where's Peter Knappy? I miss his/her comments. They're like bad coffee, you cringe at drinking it but after downing it you still get a caffeine buzz.

Didn't we have a few threads on HIT way back? Just rehashing the same old stuff now.

http://www.hypertrophy-research.com/ is a nice website if you want to read up on how skeletal muscle hypertrophy happens, but it's undergoing a few changes at the moment. Or you can use PubMed.

[Dumbelldog]

Yeah but it's good to listen to Cammo and Mr Heavy duty go at it. :pfft:

[FastFreddy]

Where's Peter Knappy? I miss his/her comments. They're like bad coffee, you cringe at drinking it but after downing it you still get a caffeine buzz.

Didn't we have a few threads on HIT way back? Just rehashing the same old stuff now.

split routines make about as much sense as sleeping with one eye open,best results will almost always occur from training your upper and lower body in the same workout,

[ExpensiveUrine]

Did I say something about split routines in my post above? Am I missing something?

split routines make about as much sense as sleeping with one eye open,best results will almost always occur from training your upper and lower body in the same workout,

It really depends on the context of application of split routines vs. whole body.

Apart from talking about being open minded and having a hard*n for HIT without realizing that there are different paths to the same goal, you don't really explain the things you say.

[Cammo]

split routines make about as much sense as sleeping with one eye open,best results will almost always occur from training your upper and lower body in the same workout,

You forgot to add "in my opinion..."