Bodyweight training: your thoughts?

[rebuff]

OK - so I'm expecting that this thread will take a beating, particularly in this corner of gymnation, but let's see. 

Having taken 3 yrs off training due a serious injury, 2014 is the year that I join the bar-brotherhood, once more. Or is it? I've come across a training style that I'm quite intrigued with and was wondering what others think. It's basically calisthenics, but in a much more complex way. This is popularised by people like Mark Lauren, author of "You are your own gym".

Now before you go making assumptions, I've been a BB of sorts for well over a decade and have at points in my life been fairly strong, with a heavy training schedule of 1.5 -2 hrs every day. My workouts initially favoured an isolation strategy with mid range reps (8-12), supplemented by heavy compound lifts (esp squats and deads) in the low range (3-6). Later, they moved towards including some imperfection training, HIIT and strongman type exercises because I enjoyed the full body workout and functional strenght they provided. I'm no wimp when it comes to training, but the fact that I feel a need to defend this point illuminates precisely my point around bodyweight training: I had assumed it was easy, high rep conditioning work that is ill-suited to any respectable strength or aesthetic gains. But is it?

This stuff is actually tough.

But in a different way. It turns out that pull exercises can be incredibly hard! I never realised how much complexity you can add to pull ups (and how much it can hurt afterwards!). Things like moving from side to side at the top, or raising your legs above your head at the top of the movement is harder than anything I did at the gym with traditional equipment. I concede that push exercises are much harder to get a really good workout from in terms of strenght though... My bench was around the 110kg mark and I'm finding most chest stuff easy, but have discovered that I can add weight in backpack and do it with my feet elevated on an instable base to add complexity. It seems to work out so much more of my torso, arms, shoulders as well as chest, which feels good. But I have a disproportionally large chest and matching set of tris so not too worried about that for now. As for legs, I'm curious about the benefits of power training (box jumps, jumping squats, pistol-to-single-leg-jump movements). It feels much harder than a good old squat, but in a different way. Then there's all the things you can do with suspension straps... talk about a core workout! I've never experienced anything as hard as that.

So what's your opinion of this kind of training? Just for pussys; or is there more to it?

 

 

[AZIDE]

Now before you go making assumptions, I've been a BB of sorts for well over a decade and have at points in my life been fairly strong.....

 

....My bench was around the 110kg mark....

 

 

lol wot? 

 

but imo nothing wrong with that kind of training if thats what you want to do. better to be lighter rather than heavier for that shit though if your goal is to get good at it

[rebuff]

That would depend on my weight at the time, I think mate. Way to miss the point of the post though. 

[rebuff]

 

but imo nothing wrong with that kind of training if thats what you want to do. better to be lighter rather than heavier for that shit though if your goal is to get good at it

I'm not sure I agree with the logic here though. Sure, it's easier if you're lighter. But since when is training about wanting things to be easier? I'm much more interested in a power:weight ratio, and I like the idea of things getting more challenging as I get heavier. 

[rebuff]

But just to make my OP clearer: I'm interested in whether people think this is an effective way of getting stronger and having better aesthetics in terms of lean hypertrophy. 

What i'm not interested in is a sort of 'if it floats your boat' answer. Obviously if that's what i'm into, that's how I'll train. But is it effective?

[AZIDE]

That would depend on my weight at the time, I think mate. Way to miss the point of the post though. 

so what was your weight at the time?

 

and anyway the rest of my post was relevant no? i used to do pressups and pullups heaps. like you i put my feet up on a chair or something for pressups to make it harder, and i used DBs as handles to go lower. did 30-40 repsx11 sets. 4 min rest and did set of sit-ups in between (lol). just put the DBs closer for more tricep, wider for more chest. was having to push myself harder on the last sets to get the reps than i ever do when im benching, so dont think its easy/for pussies. 

dont train that way anymore and havent for ages but thats just because i want to get my bench up. might give it a go again soon though. havent done any other such excercises besides dips and as i mentioned before pullups/chin ups so cant comment on that.

 

 

edit: just saw your last post. no i dont think its as effective for building muscle/getting stronger. you will get stronger/better at those excercises for a while sure. but i dont think you would actually get stronger chest muscles for example, than you would from doing benching. and i dont think you will enjoy training if you did gain weight and the number of pullups you could do decreased...well i know i dont

[rebuff]

Thanks mate - that's very helpful. I wonder if it would be an effective strategy to build in comprehensive full body workouts with this kind of training as well as heavy days at gym with bench/squat rack/ deads etc. 

Weight at the time was 70 -75. Then i moved to PED and weight and strength lifted considerably, but I suffered a serious accident so that was cut short. My bench moved higher than that but didn't do it long enough to own it, so I went with the humbler weight mentioned in my OP. 

[FellowshipOfTheRon]

for starters, you are being way too pre-emptively defensive about something that isn't even controversial. calisthenics are an awesome way to build relative, explosive strength. if you have mobility issues you WILL find out about them early on and i would suggest taking care of those ASAP.. that's and all the stability strength will help you heaps in the gym other than that very little carryover

 

depends what you do and how you do it on how well you will develop strength/size wise. look at gymnasts bodies they are very lean and on the beach they'd be considered muscular... in the bb community they'd be known as skinny but undoubtably aesthetic or more physique class material. they generally train with some of the more difficult movements with high sets low reps which supports technique progression too. look at the level of upper body development on a guy who can smoothly tranisition into an iron cross and hold it, not massive but still impressive.

 

if you want to look more like a bodybuilder though then you better train like one.. not much you can do for your legs without high resistance, sprinting only helps to a certain extent. same thing for power lifters, very little carryover.

 

 

you don't want this answer but it's dead simple.. train the way you enjoy in a manner which supports your goals. heaps more likely to actually reach your goal when you're having fun vs. just going through the motions, know what i mean?

 

 

best of luck on your calisthenics endeavour if you chose to go that way though. i have built myself a pullup bar and olympic rings at home because i found i really enjoy performing this stuff myself. my goal is to get bigger and stronger and for that i still go to the gym. performing programs which support this such as SL5x5 (or currently Smolov Bench as per lower body injury) and fitting in the fun stuff with rings here and there, though gotta be careful because some movements can be particularly taxing on the body and hinder recovery for the next gym session.

[Pseudonym]

As it happens, I've just come from watching a bunch of Youtube videos on the planche. Every so often I get these urges to be able to do them - that usually lasts until I remember how hard they are. Still, it's pretty amazing to watch...

 

ook at the level of upper body development on a guy who can smoothly tranisition into an iron cross and hold it, not massive but still impressive.

I dunno, some are pretty massive! But I think the main difference between these guys and the OP is that calisthenics is their main focus, and extra muscle is counter-productive... whereas Rebuff sounds like he wants the muscle as well.

If it were me, I'd try incorporating calisthenics into a traditional routine - so for instance my shoulders/chest day would include planche training, and back day would include muscle-ups.

In fact, I might just start doing exactly that. Then maybe one day I will be able to planche!

[rebuff]

Yeah, this exactly. This guy's upperbody development is excellent. OK so not as big as a bodybuilder, but fitness model for sure. This would be idea in terms of a goal for me. The thing I really appreciate about it is that it is such a functional strenght as well: it incorporates balance and stability and is a  real-world application of strength and size.

But you can definitely see that his legs are sorely lacking the same level of development, and this is where I'm at with my thinking. It does seem that you can get an exceptional workout for shoulders, back, core, and arms, and to a lesser extent chest (those planch dip/pushups though!); but its legs that miss out when traditional training is absent.

But if you can do all this with just a pull up bar and dip bar (or have a playground near by) then why pay for a gym? Why not just by a Olympic bar and have enough weigh for some deads + other olympic lifts? If one doesn't attain to superhuman (pro-BB) level size, then is this enough?

[FellowshipOfTheRon]

Hell yes it's enough. Deads are king of everything really but if you're seeking some real level of quad development then I think you'd wanna get squats in.

If you're gonna get an oly bar may as well look for a nice little power rack too? Think they can be had for as little as $400 complete with pullup bar and safety bars for squats/bench. Combine a 2-3x a week 5x5 strength routine with calisthenics and you'll have all your functional strength... get some bumper plates and you're set for developing some real power too (oly lifts)

As it happens, I've just come from watching a bunch of Youtube videos on the planche. Every so often I get these urges to be able to do them - that usually lasts until I remember how hard they are. Still, it's pretty amazing to watch...

 

ook at the level of upper body development on a guy who can smoothly tranisition into an iron cross and hold it, not massive but still impressive.

I dunno, some are pretty massive! But I think the main difference between these guys and the OP is that calisthenics is their main focus, and extra muscle is counter-productive... whereas Rebuff sounds like he wants the muscle as well.

If it were me, I'd try incorporating calisthenics into a traditional routine - so for instance my shoulders/chest day would include planche training, and back day would include muscle-ups.

In fact, I might just start doing exactly that. Then maybe one day I will be able to planche!

dam gotta love the planches!! wish I could do  it! can barely do normal pushups on rings but someday I'll do planches on 'em!

[Pseudonym]

One thing I notice about calisthenic athletes is that many seem to have over-developed chest and front delts in comparison to their back and rear delts. Look at their posture and you'll see everything is pulled forward, and no traps/rhomboids to counter it. They're not all like this, but many are.

IMO that's another argument for combining calisthenics with regular weight training to ensure you don't have any body parts lagging behind.

[FellowshipOfTheRon]

One thing I notice about calisthenic athletes is that many seem to have over-developed chest and front delts in comparison to their back and rear delts. Look at their posture and you'll see everything is pulled forward, and no traps/rhomboids to counter it. They're not all like this, but many are.

IMO that's another argument for combining calisthenics with regular weight training to ensure you don't have any body parts lagging behind.

sounds like a BIG vote for importance of deadlifts then

[ohjoshua]

I think one of the main issues with BW exercises as your main exercises is the difficulty to make small increases in weight. 

Meaning you can increase decrease reps and rest times, you can even change up the exercises. But you cant increase or decrease it by 1kg easily. This is a major limitation when attempting to consistantly build muscle and make progress.

And as mentioned Legs will be an issue. But you could include some Cycle sprinting, hill running etc to improve lower body development. 

[rebuff]

One thing I notice about calisthenic athletes is that many seem to have over-developed chest and front delts in comparison to their back and rear delts. Look at their posture and you'll see everything is pulled forward, and no traps/rhomboids to counter it. They're not all like this, but many are.

IMO that's another argument for combining calisthenics with regular weight training to ensure you don't have any body parts lagging behind.

although I agree with your observation as something that is common, I find it really surprising given the availability of difficult back calisthenic exercises.

and this is where I see your point, ohjoshua, but disagree. There is so many ways to incrementally increase calisthenic difficulty. For example, you can do push ups on blocks for deeper rom, with feet elevated to increase weight distribution to your hands and wear a weighted vest (or in my case, a backpack full of sand weighing 18kg). And believe me, that's not easy.

 

But more related to my point in this post, there are so many difficult exercises to do for back. all the variations to pull ups, not to mention weighted pulls or holds. Or pull ups on a towel for traps & grip strenght. Plus there are all the variations you can do with rings (or homemade TRX cables in my case) including rows and inverted pulls (think barbell row).

 If there are muscular asymmertiries, my argument is that the athlete is not training for symmetry (either by choice or not) rather than an absence of decent back exercises.

But still, fellowship has it on the money here, i think: calisthenics + deadlifts = pretty good overall physique.