TRT information

[Kalidane]

because everything Im reading says to do it properly there is much more to it than just shoving a needle in your arm every week and getting it wrong could lead to health implications.

Ie , family jewels shriveling up and dying, prostate issues, lethargy setting back in, etc etc etc..

Not sure if serious about shoving a needle in your arm. If your Doc/nurse starts looking for a vein to inject into you should run screaming out the door. You've read about site rotation and understand that the injections are intramuscular right?

With regards to the health issues you listed, your research will have shown you how likely they are, why they occur, and how they can be mitigated. Right?

[mrgeeky]

because everything Im reading says to do it properly there is much more to it than just shoving a needle in your arm every week and getting it wrong could lead to health implications.

Ie , family jewels shriveling up and dying, prostate issues, lethargy setting back in, etc etc etc..

Not sure if serious about shoving a needle in your arm. If your Doc/nurse starts looking for a vein to inject into you should run screaming out the door. You've read about site rotation and understand that the injections are intramuscular right?

Oh what rubbish..

I have always injected my roids straight in to the biggest vein I could find in my "arm"

You should try it, works wonders!

[musclenz]

An alternative to using Hcg on cycle or in TRT would be using a low dose of Clomid say 25mg EOD or even E3D. Hcg is expensive & sometimes hard to source good quality stuff in NZ. Also low dose Proviron is useful to keep libido & sexual function in place.

I think you are over complicating your TRT program mrgeeky. Your levels of E2 & Free Test will vary according to many external & internal factors. You just need to find an equilibrium that keeps everything functioning. Without almost daily bloods, you are never going to achieve a perfect situation.

[mrgeeky]

just trying to learn mate..

One of the problems is there is a lot of info to digest and wade through.

Im not overly keen on taking anything I don't hve too..

I think if I get my bloods done once I find what bloods I need to take, I'll know from there what else I should be taking if any of my research is starting to sink in..

So yeah, just trying to learn mate.. That's all.. Just trying to do things some what properly this time around..

[Daz69]

I think your starting to sway away from TRT advice and usage protocols when you start mentioning HCG, Arimidex, ect etc...

You are basically replacing low natural test levels with an outside (injectable) source.... Your not doing a heavy body-building cycle, dont forget that...!!

If all you are trying to do is replace low natural test with injectable test to about 25-30nmol/L, (high normal range) you won't need body-building cycle ancillaries...

[mrgeeky]

I think your starting to sway away from TRT advice and usage protocols when you start mentioning HCG, Arimidex, ect etc...

You are basically replacing low natural test levels with an outside (injectable) source.... Your not doing a heavy body-building cycle, dont forget that...!!

If all you are trying to do is replace low natural test with injectable test in the high 30's, (high normal range) you won't need body-building cycle ancillaries ...

Been reading another site that differs from your opinion...

Im still trying to take it all in and nut out what is correct..

Some of the other stuff that other site says, doesn't appear to make sense to me though.

I'll keep posting my thoughts in here so you guys can keep me on the straight and narrow lol

[Daz69]

I think your starting to sway away from TRT advice and usage protocols when you start mentioning HCG, Arimidex, ect etc...

You are basically replacing low natural test levels with an outside (injectable) source.... Your not doing a heavy body-building cycle, dont forget that...!!

If all you are trying to do is replace low natural test with injectable test in the high 30's, (high normal range) you won't need body-building cycle ancillaries ...

Been reading another site that differs from your opinion...

Im still trying to take it all in and nut out what is correct..

Some of the other stuff that other site says, doesn't appear to make sense to me though.

I'll keep posting my thoughts in here so you guys can keep me on the straight and narrow lol

Feel free to post a link to the other forum.....

Without reading it I can't really comment, only to surmise advice regarding common Body-building protocols might be mistakenly being suggested for use in TRT.... The two are VERY different... a healthy male with normal testosterone production doesn't use ancillaries like arimidex & HCG...!!

The bodies homoeostasis mechanism regulates Oestrogen, Progesterone, Glucocorticoids, so if Test levels are within normal ranges, I would conclude the body would sort everything out naturally.....

REGARDS:

Example:

250iu HCG SC EOD

.14ml test cyp (200mg/ml) IM EOD

1mg/wk Arimidex in divided doses

Is it just me or does anyone else think this advice is over the top crock of shite..?

[Android]

makes sense to me Daz.

mrgeeky you're confusing with these opposing statements

Been reading another site that differs from your opinion...

Im still trying to take it all in and nut out what is correct..

Some of the other stuff that other site says, doesn't appear to make sense to me though.

I'll keep posting my thoughts in here so you guys can keep me on the straight and narrow lol

you'll never be satisfied if you don't pick a way to do things...follow one way. Later when or if you have the knowledge then you can be in a position to pick and choose. Or go to Med school, free student loans, don't have to pay anything back cause you'll never work after 60...sweet deal mate :-)

Look go to the Mens Clinic in Parnell, tell them Android sent you...see the qualified doctor who "specialises" in TRT for "men" and do everything he says you should do.

Don't ask questions, he is smarter than you.

Don't doubt him when you are reading forums on the interweb, he is more experienced than any anonymous writer out there.

[Daz69]

makes sense to me Daz.

250iu HCG SC EOD

.14ml test cyp (200mg/ml) IM EOD

1mg/wk Arimidex in divided doses

You don't think its a bit over the top for TRT, Android...?

[mrgeeky]

Here's where I got it from.. This site/forum

http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_online ... umIndexCat

This was in one of the threads!

"I am sorry to say that you are the poster child for TRT done wrong. You can make huge gains in well-being as outlined by happydog48 above. If I seem angry, its not with you, but with your doctor. What you are doing probably cannot be done worse. The problem is not injecting and the answer is not T gels.

Make the changes and see how your blood - hematocrit responds in time. Some need to have blood removed, or make blood donations.

Injecting every two weeks will create more T-->E aromatization and more E leads to more SHBG. SHBG reduces your free testosterone. Your T:E ratio goes to shit.

Even injecting T every other day (EOD) with high TT and FT numbers can be a total crock if E2 levels are elevated.

With injections every two weeks, as the T wears off, the E is still hanging around. You can feel terrible, worse that before TRT started.

You must inject at least once a week, twice a week would be much better. Your program is a complete mess and your doctor is what we term here ... a complete idiot.

Your testicles are small and your scrotum is pulled up and tight? TRT shuts down your HPTA and there is no LH to keep the testes working. With the testes shut down, you loose most of your pregnenolone production which is important to the brain and is also the 'feedstock' for DHEA production.

Injecting 250iu hCG SC EOD will maintain the testes. Many report a fast acting improvement in mood with hCG... see pregnenolone above.

If you are injecting hCG EOD, you might as well be injecting your T ester EOD as well.

Estrogen can mess up your brain, mood, energy, libido and prostate if too high. Without lab numbers, you do not know what you are doing. Do you have and retain copies of all of your blood work? With T levels changing over two weeks, the correct amount of arimidex is not achievable. Too little E can also create probems with brain, mood, energy, libido. A few are over-responders to arimidex/anastrozole and must use 1/4 or 1/8th of the expected dose. Some who get good E numbers at first with 1mg/wk often later need to almost double that as some changes take place. You need the numbers.

Example:

250iu HCG SC EOD

.14ml test cyp (200mg/ml) IM EOD

1mg/wk Arimidex in divided doses

Adjust Arimidex to get a serum E2 number in the lower 20's (0-53pg/ml)

When injecting small amounts of T esters (cypionate, ethanate) you can use a 1" #25 needles for the quads (vastus lateralis). If your skin/fat is thin, you can inject with .5" .5ml #28 insulin syringes. You do not need to use 1.5" needles in your butt.

You cannot understand any of the above? Research these items.

Getting TRT done right requires a good doctor... very hard to find. Most doctors have no idea what to do. Endos are not in any way particularly qualified to do any of this. Many GPs do a better job, because they are wanting to learn. Endo's have been seen here to be, as a group, frequently stupid and have ego problems that prevent them from thinking that there is anything that they might need to learn. You need to understand what you want and need and fight to get it. You probably have to dump your endo.

Many of us here have been through all of this"

[mrgeeky]

you'll never be satisfied if you don't pick a way to do things...follow one way. Later when or if you have the knowledge then you can be in a position to pick and choose. Or go to Med school, free student loans, don't have to pay anything back cause you'll never work after 60...sweet deal mate :-)

Look go to the Mens Clinic in Parnell, tell them Android sent you...see the qualified doctor who "specialises" in TRT for "men" and do everything he says you should do.

Don't ask questions, he is smarter than you.

Don't doubt him when you are reading forums on the interweb, he is more experienced than any anonymous writer out there.

Hi Android. I'm already doing this "follow one way"

and it's working great.. At the mo on 3 x 40ml tabs morn and 3 at night..

Experimenting to see the affect of dropping doesage when training.

When on 4 morning and 3 night I have energy to burn. Caps are my back stop and main stay!

Shortly Im going to go on 100mg cyp p/w too see what that does, but like the sust 250 if I don't like it I have the caps to fall back on.. They work great although there is some question of how safe they are long term.. At least they are a really good back stop or "follow one way" as you put it..

So all sussed!

The next comments Im a little hesitant with as I have a lot of respect and appreciation for the help you guys have freely given me here, so the last thing I want to do is to offend but then I doubt you'll take this the wrong way..

Yes of course the TRT specialist at the mens clinic has far more knowledge than I have. But then so do most people lol. I don't think it would be very wise of me to take the shutup and listen approach totally.. To a point sure, but only the stupid don't try to educate them selves on matters that are important to them selves.

No, im never going to be an endo or even have half the knowledge you guys have but there are definitely questions I need answers too.. Only going to find that by asking and researching..

An example of something Im trying to figure out is, when on the test caps for over a year and the crown jewels hadn't shrunk. A couple of weeks on sust and voila.. Gave me a bit of a fright at how much they shrank..

Back on the caps and they are back to normal.. Why?

If you read that quote I posted (last post) it explains

"Your testicles are small and your scrotum is pulled up and tight? TRT shuts down your HPTA and there is no LH to keep the testes working. With the testes shut down, you loose most of your pregnenolone production which is important to the brain and is also the 'feedstock' for DHEA production"

Another quote from the same guy.

"hCG is a water based peptide hormone can be injected to replace the lost LH hormone that TRT shuts down. Without hCG, the LH receptors in the testes are no longer getting activated. The results are:

* The testes shrink. Over time for some the testes can eventually become small undifferentiated lumps of collagen. This is drug induced organ failure. The degree of shrinking varies from guy to guy and may be more of a problem for the older guys.

* Fertility can be greatly reduced or eliminated. If making babies is important, you need to inject hCG. If hCG is not used, its use after a long time may or may not recover fertility.

* When the testes get smaller, some feel an ache in their testes 24x7. hCG injections can eliminate that pain or avoid the whole episode.

* When there is no LH or hCG, the scrotum pulls up tight to the body. This has the appearance of a pre-pubescent boy. This is not good for ones sexual self image and this also affects how women perceive you sexually. Some women get very upset when they see this maleness disappear, thus affecting their sexuality and interest in you.

* The testes are the single largest producer of the hormone pregnenolone. Pregnenolone is important for proper mental functioning, and is the precursor to all of the steroid hormones such as DHEA, testosterone, DHT, estrogen, cortisol... Injecting hCG prevents a drug induced pregnenolone deficiency and helps support the other hormones. When guys are on T without hCG and then start hCG, they report a significant improvement in mood that many attribute to restored pregnenolone levels. [if that is not the case, hCG must have some direct effects in the brain.]

When injecting hCG, you inject into the fat under the skin just the same as diabetics inject insulin. The product literature is all about use a fertility drug for women with large IM [injected into muscle] doses. There is no need for men to inject hCG IM.

Research using SC injections in men has demonstrated the effectiveness of the 250iu EOD dosing. You can seek diabetic patient educational material for insulin injection techniques to use for hCG and/or testosterone injections. "

So going by what that guy is saying hCG is important!

Hey, he could be a total idiot for all I know so Im happy to listen to you guys..

If as he says pregnenolone production is so important, how do you kickstart it with out hCG and how does one go about stopping the nuts from shriveling up?

Again, Im just trying to learn.. It's not going to stop me listening to you guys though..

The other thing is I really like the doc I have now but I need to be able to educate him on these matters.. For me to do that I need some knowledge myself.. If it all becomes too hard I may just take your advice and either go back to my original TRT doc or the Mens Clinic.. But the travel would be a real pain on my schedule.

Hope I have rambled on to much and hpe that all makes sense. A couple of days with out much sleep so Im fairly brain dead at the mo...

[mrgeeky]

[Without reading it I can't really comment, only to surmise advice regarding common Body-building protocols might be mistakenly being suggested for use in TRT.... The two are VERY different... a healthy male with normal testosterone production doesn't use ancillaries like arimidex & HCG...!!

The bodies homoeostasis mechanism regulates Oestrogen, Progesterone, Glucocorticoids, so if Test levels are within normal ranges, I would conclude the body would sort everything out naturally.....

.?

admit to being out of my depth here..

I was going to contradict something you by posting something from the other site..

Not that I disagree with you.. I don't know enough too lol

But was going to show you that they had a different theory..

It was to do with the body cant sort everything out naturally because taking TRT shuts down pregnenolone production.

But reading back through it all I have realized Im really way out of my depth here.

I think I might just take Androids advice and go make an appointment with the Mens Clinic and in the mean time just quietly read all this stuff on the side line. :oops:

[Android]

makes sense to me Daz.

250iu HCG SC EOD

.14ml test cyp (200mg/ml) IM EOD

1mg/wk Arimidex in divided doses

You don't think its a bit over the top for TRT, Android...?

i meant your observation makes complete sense, sorry Daz...OTT!

hell I've only just started with Arimidex myself and I'm on a gram of Test + anabolics.

replace all of that stuff with a protein shake and she'll be right :clap:

[farrout]

mrgeeky wrote:

Hey guys, I have had to change doctors..

The doc that originally put me on TRT lives to far away for me to see him as often as I would like.

The doctor that I am going to now admits to not having a lot of knowledge around TRT. I'm not getting any blood tests done etc through him.

He basically just administers what I ask him too.

I'm wondering would that file above be a good one to print out for him to have a read of or is there some better info that I can supply him with that will help him manage my TRT?

Any thoughts please guys?

Why change what's working... Depot Test-C ... Thank You..!!!

[atrollappears]

Just found an excellent article on Testosterone deficiency:

http://www.uspharmacist.com/USPExams/107965/PHS1102.pdf