Rest days, How many are required for optimum growth ?

[splinter]

I would hasard a guess and say you probably weren't eating enough while doing cardio and lifting weights. Jo Stewart (4x Ms NZ) runs for an hour a day leading up to comp time, and reckons adequate protein intake maintains her muscle mass.

We'll agree to disagree on the cardio issue...having spent a good few years as a road cyclist I have my own opinions on the subject.

You guessed wrong my friend i was eating between 3000-3500 calories a day, it was the type of cardio that was the culprit, the fact is based on my metabolism at the time, i shouldnt have been performing any cardio at all, but i had faith at the time that my personal trainer knew what he was doing, 4 months later i had lost 3kg in mass and looked like id just stepped out of a concentration camp. I never paid him for the last session.

As for the cardio, like you said......well just agree to disagree.

Lets say you need 2500 cals to maintain your bodyweight, and you spend an hour lifting and another 20 mins cardio, thus burning another 1200 cals, you will be in deficit if you were eating 3-3500 cals per day. You will certainly lose mass/weight. Calories in, calories out.

As for not paying your pT for the last session, that's pretty sad man, if you agree to employ him, you pay. That's like doing a runner from a taxi.

If you aren't happy with a PT's performance, let him know, and he will be happy to work something out.

Caloric intake to gain mass is based on eating above your current tdee (total daily energy expenditure) some guys can eat 2000 when starting a program and grow, some will eat 2000 and turn into toothpicks, you are only guessing what my tdee was at that time in my training so how can you say ill loose eating 3000-3500 cals ?

When gaining mass and you have a high metabolism as well as a physical job i reckon any form of cardio is counterproductive, it depends on your bmr, some metabolisms benefit from cardio, some dont.

Anyway, your original argument was that cardio burns fat, that statement is wrong, there are plenty of chubby people that perform cardio.

There are also plenty of stickmen that perform cardio.

There are also ripped muscular people that perfrom cardio.

It depends on your caloric intake and caloric manipulation (protein carb ratio) the type of cardio performed, the length of cardio performed etc

OF course cardio can burn fat, but it can also dig into your bm, that's all im trying to say here.

As for the pt

Are you saying that if you were to employ someone to extend your home and they actually tore down part of your existing home, you would pay them?

Thats pretty sad if you ask me, nah not sad, "that would be just stupid",

I let him know i was concerned with my progress and he said to continue training as i was and the results would come....... after 4 months i lost 3kg of lean tissue!!

Fact is like anything in life there are some pts that are on the money, and there are some that arent, the same applies to builders, plumbers, electricians, dentists, lawyers, etc

It was actually a supplement rep that saw me training and told me to cut the cardio completly, i questioned my pt but he said to keep it up so i put faith in his recomendations.

I completely agree with you on communication, its important to voice your opinion to your pt if you are not happy with results, i also feel if you are a pt that you need to show a genuine interest in your clients, not just work him/her on training day and ignore them on the days they dont need you.

I know pts are busy people but surely it doesnt take much to say a few words of encouragement when walking past.

I guess it comes down to people skills, personally i would suck at being a pt. :pfft:

Maybe he was new, i dunno,

Anyway im a little bit older and wiser now and im sure the guy didnt go bankrupt.

[poos_n_wees]

Anyway, your original argument was that cardio burns fat, that statement is wrong, there are plenty of chubby people that perform cardio.

There are also plenty of stickmen that perform cardio.

There are also ripped muscular people that perfrom cardio.

It depends on your caloric intake and caloric manipulation (protein carb ratio) the type of cardio performed, the length of cardio performed etc

OF course cardio can burn fat, but it can also dig into your bm, that's all im trying to say here.

Yeah, it can also dig into your bm - but I agree with Waldo.. if your protein intake is adequate, you shouldn't have a problem.

[Andrew]

I measure each week, if i havnt gained any mass i up my caloric intake

When you say “mass” are you talking muscle mass or just mass, do you measure your BF each week? And just out of interest what’s your protein garm intake per day?

[frogie2001]

cool,

I've never moved calorie intake on such a small scale before, Daily. that is when I'm cutting or bulking i maintain the same numbers everyday, this way when i'm on an off weights day the ody has the fuel to recover. from what is described your body won't know how many cals it will get the next day. this, personally i've found, causes confusion in the body and it doesn't know if it should use energy to build muscle, burn fat, or store fat. has anyone else found this???/?

[Mo250]

I like a 2- way or 3- way split myself. I thrive on low volume basically. protein is generally around 2g/lb of bodyweight.

[splinter]

I measure each week, if i havnt gained any mass i up my caloric intake

When you say “mass” are you talking muscle mass or just mass, do you measure your BF each week? And just out of interest what’s your protein garm intake per day?

Hey andrew, looking good bro.

I dont bulk clean, and i dont focus on percentages anymore, i have tried different ratios with carbs fats and protein and i just cannot afford to eat massive amounts of protein to focus on keeping my fat % low, just to gain less lean mass each year than i would if i just ate big, expanded my stomach and cut up 3 months before summer.

I just focus on eating foods high in carbs & fibre, any extra protein incoroprated into each meal is either through whole milk, yogurt or cheese.

I dont eat huge amounts of protein (200+ grams) like i have in the past becasue i ended up flushing it all down the tiolet with no gains to show for it anyway.

I just focus mainly on caloric intake not carbs, protein fats etc.

And although my fat percentage is obviosly higher, im gaining muscle

every week.

Remember most of you guys compete, im just a recreational body builder who is interested in gaining more muscle, this type of eating is what i have found to be the most productive for my goals.

Guys who are hardgainers will understand where im coming from.

My goal weight is around 90kg with 10%-13% bodyfat.

Any more than this will be a bonus.

The only time i become ratio conscious is when focusing on fat loss, 6-10 weeks each year where i find higher amounts of protein to carbs is beneficial for fat loss, this is also manipulated with my weekly normal caloric intake, once summer passes and the shirts go back on i start eating big again.

I dont bulk clean, that doesnt mean i eat crap all day,

My main food intake consists of:

oatmeal

yoghurt

raw peanuts

fruit

cheese

cottage cheese

whole grain bread

milk

fruit juice

potatoes

rice

chicken

steak

green vegetables etc

The bad stuff i incorporate occasionally is

sausages, chocolate, bacon, pizza, you name it. =P~

[waldo]

Splinter, i worked for a number of years as a PT, self employed. It's how they make a living, giving an hour of their time to you for money. It annoys me when people withhold money. Especially if he had designed a progrma and nutritive advice based on goals and info you had given.

[waldo]

If you take the time to look at how the human body creates energy for cardiovascular exercise you will see how the human body utilises fat for the process.

[frogie2001]

right on brother :nod:

[waldo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerobic_exercise

This might explain a little as to how the human body creates energy for aerobic and anerobic exercise. I don't have time to go into it further....until later :toilet:

[splinter]

Splinter, i worked for a number of years as a PT, self employed. It's how they make a living, giving an hour of their time to you for money. It annoys me when people withhold money. Especially if he had designed a progrma and nutritive advice based on goals and info you had given.

Hey waldo, listen im sorry that people have withheld money from you when you were a pt, but for the sake of avoiding an argument ill just say.....point taken.

[splinter]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerobic_exercise

This might explain a little as to how the human body creates energy for aerobic and anerobic exercise. I don't have time to go into it further....until later :toilet:

much appreciated, ill have a read tonight.

[splinter]

cool,

I've never moved calorie intake on such a small scale before, Daily. that is when I'm cutting or bulking i maintain the same numbers everyday, this way when i'm on an off weights day the ody has the fuel to recover. from what is described your body won't know how many cals it will get the next day. this, personally i've found, causes confusion in the body and it doesn't know if it should use energy to build muscle, burn fat, or store fat. has anyone else found this???/?

I have never heard of this type of eating to gain mass, you need more fuel on the day you train, obviously the more intense your training the more fuel you are going to need to grow and recover, if you eat the same amount of calories day in and day out including your weigtlifting sessions it will defiinatley hinder your growth (If gaining is your goal) in fact its a wonder your bodys not in catabolic overdrive.

Your eating is just as important if not more so than your training, you need to have a log that you use each week to monitor your progress, you will find that if you are growing and getting stronger each week

then its a good indication you are eating enough, if your strength has stagnated and your gains are non existent then its a good indication you are either overtraining or undereating or both.

Keep a log of your caloric intake for each week

If i find one week my stats indicate no growth then i up my caloric intake by 300-500 each day, excluding training day, where i add up to 1000, but a general rule for most trainers is to add at least 500 on training day.

So an example would be.

Gain intake = 2000 cal each day (non training)

Training day=2500 cal

Check stats at end of week or at least every two weeks:

stat results that indicate growth.= remain at current cal intake

stat results indicate loss= add 300--500 cal each day

Stat results indicate 0 gain or loss= add 300-- 500 cal each day

Actual stat results=0 gain or loss

New daily intake =2300-2500 cal each day (non training)

training day=2800-3000 cal

etc

Hope this helps.

[Andrew]

Cal on training day = energy

Cal on non training day = recovery

Both are just as important as the other saying that not having more on your training day will hinder your growth IMO is not the best information, as well as this it would depend on how your cal split is done… 40,40,20....30,50,20 etc etc

Remember it also depends on the individual and what works for them

[splinter]

Cal on training day = energy

Cal on non training day = recovery

Both are just as important as the other saying that not having more on your training day will hinder your growth IMO is not the best information, as well as this it would depend on how your cal split is done… 40,40,20....30,50,20 etc etc

Remember it also depends on the individual and what works for them

Hey andrew, i appreciate your feedback.

But i dont think what i have suggested is bad information, especially for someone who is trying to gain muscle.

You admit that more energy is expended on training day right?

And we are talking about building muscle not cutting or maintaining.

So wouldn’t it make sense to up the calories to make sure you have enough surplus to cope with the extra workload rather than risk digging into your gains?

And surely you agree that there is an anabolic window after an intense training session to flush glucose and protein into your muscles, requiring more cal on training day? (yes i realize we grow when resting, its just a window of opportunity to flush nutrients into your muscles to promote growth)

And regardless of "ratios and body type" the fact is your tdee (total daily energy expentiture) is more because there is a higher demand for fuel on this day, so it only makes sense to increase it.

Lets say your daily intake to gain muscle is 2000 calories, that is enough calories to eat above your tdee and gain muscle each non training day.

Now training day arrives and your tdee has increased by at least 500 calories depending on the intensity of your training (500 would be minimum)

So what happens if you maintain your caloric intake of 2000 calories.

You have just created a 500 caloric deficit which means your body needs to find another source of fuel to cope with the extra energy output.

So if your not going to feed it where does it get it from??

It has to find it from your body somehow so where does it get it the extra 500cal worth of fuel from, your fat stores your muscle or your glycogen stores?

Protein contains 4 calories per gram

Carbohydrates contain 4 calories per gram

Fat contains 9 calories per gram

It cant utililze any glycogen or glucose regardless of wether you manipulate carb,protein, fat ratios because it isnt there, eventually throughout the day your body will use it as fuel.

So now you are left with fat stores and muscle tissue.

Fat contains 9 cal per gram

Protein contains 4 cals per gram

Your body will tap into what is easier for it to break down and utilize which is protein that it derives from muscle tissue in the form of amino acids.

So…

You have just lost 500 cal worth of fuel in muscle tissue, if you continue training for weeks in this way then you will continue to loose muscle, not gain it.

[THEBERG]

Few of us here in Gizzy are training each musle group only once every 2 weeks, we go super heavey and super intensley. The reasoning behind it is that physiological you need the cns to recover as well as muscle tissue. If a pro bodybuilder trains a bodypart once a week with special medicine and superior recover what makes you think that natural guys can do the same rountine???

[Cammo]

Hey andrew, i appreciate your feedback.

But i dont think what i have suggested is bad information, especially for someone who is trying to gain muscle.

You admit that more energy is expended on training day right?

And we are talking about building muscle not cutting or maintaining.

Your muscles don't grow or "build" while you're in the gym as you've stated - they grow while you're asleep & on recovery days.

IMO it is essential to get plenty of calories in on training & non-training days for this very reason.

Have you seen the pics of Andrew?

I think he's doing something right!

Few of us here in Gizzy are training each musle group only once every 2 weeks, we go super heavey and super intensley. The reasoning behind it is that physiological you need the cns to recover as well as muscle tissue. If a pro bodybuilder trains a bodypart once a week with special medicine and superior recover what makes you think that natural guys can do the same rountine???

Who said this?

Guys on gear normally always change their routines to make the most out of their cycle - they would be silly not to.

I don't know too many nattys that train like they're on a cycle either (although a lot of noobs try after they read Arnies Encyclopedia :pfft:)

[splinter]

Few of us here in Gizzy are training each musle group only once every 2 weeks, we go super heavey and super intensley. The reasoning behind it is that physiological you need the cns to recover as well as muscle tissue. If a pro bodybuilder trains a bodypart once a week with special medicine and superior recover what makes you think that natural guys can do the same rountine???

Hey berg,

To answer your question,

short intense training sessions........BIG FOOD...........progressive overload rest periods, layoff periods between cycles, and a joint repair supplement that contains a combination of Glucosamine and Chondratin. (which i am considering purchasing at the moment)

You can cycle with lighter volume after a heavy cycle on this program if you choose to, but personally i find it self defeating.

[splinter]

Have you seen the pics of Andrew?

I think he's doing something right!

Lol, i knew someone would come up with this one, no offence to Andrew he has an impressive physique and he has obviously worked extremely hard to get it, but just because a person has an impressive physique doesnt make them an authority on what i takes for a hargainer to grow.

Hope that didn't offend anyone. :shifty:

[Andrew]

just because a person has an impressive physique doesn’t make them an authority on what I takes for a hargainer to grow.

No it doesn’t but the 14 years of BB has helped a wee bit

[Cammo]

Have you seen the pics of Andrew?

I think he's doing something right!

Lol, i knew someone would come up with this one, no offence to Andrew he has an impressive physique and he has obviously worked extremely hard to get it, but just because a person has an impressive physique doesnt make them an authority on what i takes for a hargainer to grow.

Hope that didn't offend anyone. :shifty:

Not at all :wink: , although I do think the term "hardgainer" is splashed around a bit more often than needed.

90% put themselves in the "hardgainer" basket just because they workout & don't gain - most of them fail to realise that their diets need to change if they are lifting.

[waldo]

just because a person has an impressive physique doesn’t make them an authority on what I takes for a hargainer to grow.

No it doesn’t but the 14 years of BB has helped a wee bit

ROFLMAO!

[Flex]

Lol, i knew someone would come up with this one, no offence to Andrew he has an impressive physique and he has obviously worked extremely hard to get it, but just because a person has an impressive physique doesnt make them an authority on what i takes for a hargainer to grow.

Sorry Splinter but if you don't think Andrew has any reason to comment on what he thinks could benefit a hardgainer, why should you expect people to listen to what you're trying to espouse? I don't want to take anything away from the results you're getting but 3 months on a program does not maketh the expert.

[splinter]

Lol, i knew someone would come up with this one, no offence to Andrew he has an impressive physique and he has obviously worked extremely hard to get it, but just because a person has an impressive physique doesnt make them an authority on what i takes for a hargainer to grow.

Sorry Splinter but if you don't think Andrew has any reason to comment on what he thinks could benefit a hardgainer, why should you expect people to listen to what you're trying to espouse? I don't want to take anything away from the results you're getting but 3 months on a program does not maketh the expert.

Gidday Flex, hows ya day going? :pfft:

Did i say Andrew didnt have any reason to comment ??, he questioned my advising someone to eat more on training day, if this is not the best information for a natural trainer then i dont know what is.

"This is a bodybuilding site right"?

And if you had read my posts you would have realized i have been training for 7 years, not three months

and its actually 7 growth period months that i have been training for using this program. 4 before injury and another 3 since.

And its not through lack of trying that i have struggled to gain muscle.

I have brought numerous programs and sweat blood trying to see results from them all, I have tried different routines form bb sites and muscle mags, i have tried hiring a persoanl trainer for 4 months that knew my goals and lost i 3kg of muscle, i have tried eating massive amounts of food in different carb,protein, fat ratios etc and just got fat with no added muscle.

I have tried high protein diets and just got skinny.

I have tried volume and hit style training.

I have pushed myself so damn hard in the gym it has lead to injury not just once but many times.

I have spent 100's of hours researching...............

Most trainers would throw in the towel or consider drugs but i have never given up trying to build a better body naturally.

It was only out of sheer frustration one day that i discovered the answer to growth through injury lifting INTENSE AND BIG.

My comment about andrews physique was a complement wasnt it?

But the facts are just because you have been training for years and have a great physique doesnt mean you automatically have the knowledge to know what works for someone who struggles to build muscle.

You could be genetically gifted and grow no matter what you do, or you could be on the juice or both.

Of course there are those that are big and have knowledge that can help all im saying is JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE BIG AND MUSCULAR DOESNT AUTOMATICALLY MAKE YOU AN AUTHORITY ON BODYBUILDING.

Its like saying that someone who is a 3 handicap automatically gives them the authority to teach how to improve someone who struggles off a 36 hancp.

They could be naturally gifted in that field and give all the wrong advice to others who are struggling because the game is easy for them.

Its the golfer who does the hard yards researching, receving lessons, experimenting, spending countless hours every week practicing, if progress is non existent they try some other type of swing thought or training aid but you can gauruntee that by the time they have become a 3 hancpr, they would be far more qualified to teach than the guy who got there with his eyes shut.

People like myself who struggle to build muscle no matter what they try, SEARCH FOR ANSWERS, which along the way they gain knowlege.

Knowledge is one thing, but its applying knowledge productively that helps others who are struggling to find answers.

And every week i train in the way that i have described in my other posts is bringing me closer to my goal of becoming both big and knowledgeable .......................Oh yeah, Im a 6 hancp now so im not far off my other goal either.

I feel i have used my knowledge productly on this site to help others like myself who are searching for answers.

whilst constantly having to fend of guys who have nothing better to do but critisize.... and to be honest im tired of spending hours trying to defend it.

Ive got better things to do.

Where are the hundreds of other hard gainers who have been viewing this thread, are you hiding behind your computers keen to find out how splinters going with his battle against the big boys?

Anyway.... I Hope you can see some logic in what ive been posting.

Regardles of wether or not these guys question my training it works.

Hopefully youll have an ebook to have a look at sometime next year explaining how.

Anyway im tired i just had and awsum workout, beat my best lifts again and im shakin like a leaf, so im going to get some shuteye.

Have a good one.

splinter out.

[ExpensiveUrine]

Some of will already know the adverse effects of cortisol, for those that don't, then youre about to get a short lesson.

Cortisol is a bodybuilders worst nightmare, It is a hormone produced by our adrenal gland that is released into the blood stream when an individual is either physically or mentally stressed, among other negative effects cortisol has on the body, it breaks down bone, tendons and muscle tissue.

Its can also cause headaches, fatigue, depression, insomnia etc as well as supress testosterone.

So would you agree that once this hormone is released into the bloodstream that it is detrimental to anyone trying to gain mass? after all it is breaking down what you are desperately trying to build, right?.

So if I have a near miss car accident or some drunken idiot tried to fight me on saturday night, should I have a protein shake with carbs straight after? Cortisol is released regardless if you exercise or not. I doubt it would have a lot of impact on someone who is in positive calorie balance and has a positive nitrogen balance. If you're SO worried about cortisol release, just eat some freaken pro/carbs before you train.

Well the window of opportunity when performing intense physical exercise is believed to be 45-60 minutes before damaging amounts of cortisol are released into your bloodstream, wreaking havoc on your body.

Like BigMac said, we're often pulling 12hrs+ in the gym (that's 1hr-30mins during average single session with an average training loads) and we aren't getting smaller. No, we aren't using any "supplements".

Another Question: How many Big muscular long distance runners have you seen in your lifetime?

They are generally very skinny, why?

Because when running long distances for long periods, massive amounts of cortisol are released into their bodies when training and competing.

Apply that to any individual who is involved in professional long distance type events, marathon runners, tri athletes etc, you will never see a sprinters physique (big an muscular) in a long distance event, because a sprinters form of training and competing is based on short intense bursts of physical energy, their cortisol levels never reach a long distance runners levels so they are able to preserve any mass they currently have. Again heres proof of the negative effects that endurance type training has to muscle tissue etc, so why would these physical laws somehow be turned around because someone is lifting weights for over 1-2 hour sessions.

Theyre not, the same rules apply, no matter who you are, unless you are drug assisted long sessions of lifting weights(over the 1 hour mark) will have you spinning your wheels

Lol. Have you seen a high level sprinter train? Have you seen a high level distance runner train? Distance runners are skinny because they use a lot of kilojoules during (using different substrates for energy) their training and the fact there are different training adaptations between a sprinter and a long distance runner. (ie What Waldo said). Comparing those athletes and saying one is skinnier because of cortisol is dumb. Their training programs are different to suit their own sport, the adaptations will be different because adaptations are very specific to the training you're doing. Then you go comparing endurance training to resistance training.....what?!?!

Your eating is just as important if not more so than your training, you need to have a log that you use each week to monitor your progress, you will find that if you are growing and getting stronger each week

then its a good indication you are eating enough, if your strength has stagnated and your gains are non existent then its a good indication you are either overtraining or undereating or both.

So if one week I'm doing PB's in my training and then next week I can not even attempt the weight I did for a PB, am I overtrained? Come on man. There's more to progressive overload than just increasing your weight on a weekly basis. There will come a time where you won't be able to increase the weight on the bar.....will this mean that you're overtrained again? Or that you're just not eating enough? Or maybe you don't get enough sleep? By HITers logic, if my squat now is 185kg for 1RM, after a year if I use 2.5kg increase per week, then it would be 315kg at the end of the year. Somehow I'm starting to doubt that it will be.....MAYBE if I increased my calories intake by 1000 kcal each week I'd still get there and if not then I guess I'll be overtrained right?

And yet you don't post your training, because it's too dangerous or maybe because our eyes aren't intense enough to see it. HIT's been around for years and recieved it's share of critics, the main principles behind it are flawed.

It cant utililze any glycogen or glucose regardless of wether you manipulate carb,protein, fat ratios because it isnt there, eventually throughout the day your body will use it as fuel.

So now you are left with fat stores and muscle tissue.

Fat contains 9 cal per gram

Protein contains 4 cals per gram

Your body will tap into what is easier for it to break down and utilize which is protein that it derives from muscle tissue in the form of amino acids.

So…

You have just lost 500 cal worth of fuel in muscle tissue, if you continue training for weeks in this way then you will continue to loose muscle, not gain it.

Where are you getting all of this info from? Glucose isn't there? What?! If it wasn't "there" we'd be dead. Why would the emphasis of catabolism be on muscular protein, which has less energy (4kcals) compared to fat which has (9kcals)? Fat yields twice as much energy and is easier to break down metabolically than protein.

On another note, you mention training "intensely". When you're training using 6-8 reps to failure, it's not "intense". Intensity is a function of 1RM, to work out intensity you multiply your 1RM for a given lift by a given percentage that you want to attempt in your training. Intensity, in sport science, is NOT a feeling you get from doing a set of 6-8 reps to failure. I could a set of 100 reps to failure on whatever exercise. I would feel the burn, fatigue, maybe have a heart attack in the between....does that mean I'm training at a sufficient INTENSITY (a function of 1RM) to induce muscular hypertrophy?

Just because you tried so and so program, which was supposedly "high volume" (which you still haven't defined for me) and it didn't make you hyooge. Well gee, maybe it's not the high volume per se that's making you/keeping you small but the retard that wrote the program.

Again, HIT isn't something that came out last month in your muscle mag or whatever, it's been around for years and the philosophy behind it is flawed.

I think I'll write a book about SHIT. Super-high-intensity-training.