TRT advice please?

[mrgeeky]

bingo mrgeeky

cheers mate...

I kudos'd that post..

Like I should have done, first time you posted it..

[farrout]

I have tried transdermal patches, testosterone cream, Andriol caps, Sustanon 250 shots & now pin 200mg testosterone cypionate once a week with 0.5mg Arimidex every third day.

[mrgeeky]

I have tried transdermal patches, testosterone cream, Andriol caps, Sustanon 250 shots & now pin 200mg testosterone cypionate once a week with 0.5mg Arimidex every third day.

cool, glad you're still about farrout..

I was wondering if you would still be around..

With the arimidex I think some are more susceptible to Aromatization and some aren't.. I was wondering if I should be asking my doc for a script of clomid or Arimidex or similar to keep on hand just incase?

Would hate to strike issues on a Friday and cant get in to see the doc after a long weekend or something..

Just how long before gyno does become apparent? How fast does one need to take action?

Re Test, still waying up my options.. I don't mind the caps but last time I did a blood test before taking my 4 morning pills my test levels were 8 nmol/l

Not sure what that would equate to at its peak during the day.. The caps are supposed to produce their highest levels of Test aprox 5 hours after taking them..

Why aren't you on Reandron farrout? Is it like me, because of the cost?

Stupid government should start funding it, as its far more cost effective than the other options.. Just dumb not funding it..

[Daz69]

With the arimidex I think some are more susceptible to Aromatization and some aren't.. I was wondering if I should be asking my doc for a script of clomid or Arimidex or similar to keep on hand just incase?

Would hate to strike issues on a Friday and cant get in to see the doc after a long weekend or something..

Just how long before gyno does become apparent? How fast does one need to take action?

Re Test, still waying up my options.. I don't mind the caps but last time I did a blood test before taking my 4 morning pills my test levels were 8 nmol/l

Not sure what that would equate to at its peak during the day.. The caps are supposed to produce their highest levels of Test aprox 5 hours after taking them..

.

I've found the manufacturers data sheet on Reandron 1000:

http://www.bayerresources.com.au/resour ... le9509.pdf

Bayer New Zealand Limited

3 Argus Place

Hillcrest

North Shore

AUCKLAND 0627

Free phone: 0800 233 988

Its an interesting read, the graph in figure 1. shows blood concentrations after injection. Its clear there is a drop after each injection. steady-state conditions were achieved between the 3rd and the 5th administration. Mean Cmax and Cmin values of testosterone at steady-state were about 42 and 17 nmol/L respectively.

It might be more convenient injecting once every 3 months but I'd still think you'd be better off with steadier blood levels on Cypionate once a week...

I'd agree with your statement regards some people being more susceptible to gyno than others. I'm unsure as to why farrout has been recommended Adex? I think gyno can show in the beginning of any first course causing a panic, I think its just your bodies reaction to test levels jumping up in a short space of time, and it can just disappear never to return, so I'd hold out on administering Adex... And wouldn't consider Clomid at all...

I believe farrout has tried most treatments available in NZ, I would recommend you strongly consider any advice he might give on using patches, creams or injections...

[mrgeeky]

"It might be more convenient injecting once every 3 months but I'd still think you'd be better off with steadier blood levels on Cypionate once a week"

I think you'll find farrout if I remember right has never tried the Reandron.

Although I do agree, the cypionate once a week would probably be a better option long term health wise, but I sure do love the convenience of Reandron.

Im going to go see the doc and ask for the Cyp and give it a crack..

I actually thought that's what the game plan was anyway before I some how ended up with the sustanon.. Seems the doc changed his mind for some reason..

Its not actually my doc that's sorting this out for me.. So a lot of it is via ph and the new doctors nurses but its not exactly working out, so its back to my own doc armed with the info I have and the hope he can start managing this..

Arimidex - I wasn't suggesting taking it, but I did wonder whether I would need some on hand just incase? Or does it not matter if it takes a few days to get in to see the doc once the symptoms first arise?

I do know from experience Im not prone to gyno but who knows what the future will hold?

[mrgeeky]

Sustanon 250 is supposed to be injected every 3 weeks.. Lots are complaining about the feeling flat on the third week.

My doc has pinning it every two weeks instead of 3

I know all the advice in this thread says to change to something else but Im thinking it might be worth seeing what a 2 weekly cycle of this does..

Had my first inject of sust almost a week back... So far I think I was feeling better on the caps.. Seemed to have more stamina (for sports) on the caps than I have on the Sus...

Any thoughts guys?

[Android]

A weekly injection of Sus250 might be a little closer to what the caps were giving you.

280mg of oral test per day...minus the amount that the liver destroys...is still higher than TRT dosage even if only 25% is metabolised. I've done 4 caps a day for a while before and the effects were very noticeable.

Going from 7 Andriols a day down to 1ml of Sus every 2 weeks would feel like your Test levels have dropped :pfft:

The question I am hearing is that it seems to be around how much is enough...? and that really depends on how you wanna feel.

If you are in this for TRT reasons then 1ml of Sus every 2 weeks is probably fine to bump you up over 15-20nmols and out of the low range.

But if you want TRT for the feeling of youth, vitality, or anabolic reasons then it's either going to be increase the amount or increase the frequency.

Does that make sense mygeeky?

I would forget about Arimidex and Clomid at the levels you are taking (1ml Sus every 1-2 weeks) as you're just bumping levels up to or just over your teenage years.

Nothing wrong with having it on hand but taking them "during cycle" isn't necessary for those amounts of Test...plus lowering estrogen can increase tiredness etc it's a complex beast you don't need to open imo.

[mrgeeky]

thanks mate, that all makes perfect sense...

I didn't realize that I was lowering the amount of test I was taking by going on Sustanon.. I thought I would be increasing it. :-(

So I would be better going back to the caps? I train in boxing and was getting really pissed off running out of steam while others around me seemed to have tons of energy.. On the caps for the first time in years I was training whole sessions with out running out of steam.

Bummer! I was getting in some great training sessions while on the caps..

hmmm, I wonder if I could talk the doc in to giving me the sustanon weekly!

Whats the weekly dose of Cyprionate contain?

Arimidex, is something I wouldn't go near unless there was absolutely no choice. I was just wondering if most bodybuilders keep it on hand just incase?

Or do you just cross that brigde when you come to it?

[jimmybro1]

Wow that's a bumper Deca permanently shut you down.

[mrgeeky]

Wow that's a bumper Deca permanently shut you down.

when I was sold the decca I was told that I should do my home work before taking it. I was told to read the steroid bible etc..

But did I listen? lol

[mrgeeky]

A weekly injection of Sus250 might be a little closer to what the caps were giving you.

280mg of oral test per day...minus the amount that the liver destroys...is still higher than TRT dosage even if only 25% is metabolised. I've done 4 caps a day for a while before and the effects were very noticeable.

Going from 7 Andriols a day down to 1ml of Sus every 2 weeks would feel like your Test levels have dropped :pfft:

The question I am hearing is that it seems to be around how much is enough...? and that really depends on how you wanna feel.

If you are in this for TRT reasons then 1ml of Sus every 2 weeks is probably fine to bump you up over 15-20nmols and out of the low range.

But if you want TRT for the feeling of youth, vitality, or anabolic reasons then it's either going to be increase the amount or increase the frequency.

Does that make sense mygeeky?

I would forget about Arimidex and Clomid at the levels you are taking (1ml Sus every 1-2 weeks) as you're just bumping levels up to or just over your teenage years.

Nothing wrong with having it on hand but taking them "during cycle" isn't necessary for those amounts of Test...plus lowering estrogen can increase tiredness etc it's a complex beast you don't need to open imo.

I know this is probably going to sound dumb but do I have this right then..

The difference between the caps and the Sustanon is with the caps I was taking 280mg's of test per day but with the sustanon, Im on 250mg's of test spread out over two weeks, is that correct?

[AZIDE]

.

[mrgeeky]

":2m5eu3d6]

I train in boxing and was getting really pissed off running out of steam while others around me seemed to have tons of energy.. On the caps for the first time in years I was training whole sessions with out running out of steam.

do you think that maybe you actually recovered from the deca and just arent used to or forgot what its like having natty test levels?

It was probably nearly 20 years ago when I was on Decca...

I remember coming off the decca, and thinking how hard the work outs were with out, so its not as if I crashed.. I carried on doing weights for years after that.. I just think it was a contributing factor..

All the gear I messed around with since with out having a clue as to what I was doing didn't help either..

who knows, if I had of stayed away from any gear and did my best to get my natural levels up, naturally I may have succeeded? Too late to give it any consideration now...

Im on TRT for life now.. At 13 months, Im guessing theres still a chance I could come off it if I tried.. But why would I want to try.. At my age its all down hill from here anyway.. Im going to make the most of TRT while I can.. :-) And best of all, I can run some cycles once my shoulder is right and wont have to worry about any PCT.. :-) :-) :-)

[Android]

A weekly injection of Sus250 might be a little closer to what the caps were giving you.

280mg of oral test per day...minus the amount that the liver destroys...is still higher than TRT dosage even if only 25% is metabolised. I've done 4 caps a day for a while before and the effects were very noticeable.

Going from 7 Andriols a day down to 1ml of Sus every 2 weeks would feel like your Test levels have dropped :pfft:

The question I am hearing is that it seems to be around how much is enough...? and that really depends on how you wanna feel.

If you are in this for TRT reasons then 1ml of Sus every 2 weeks is probably fine to bump you up over 15-20nmols and out of the low range.

But if you want TRT for the feeling of youth, vitality, or anabolic reasons then it's either going to be increase the amount or increase the frequency.

Does that make sense mygeeky?

I would forget about Arimidex and Clomid at the levels you are taking (1ml Sus every 1-2 weeks) as you're just bumping levels up to or just over your teenage years.

Nothing wrong with having it on hand but taking them "during cycle" isn't necessary for those amounts of Test...plus lowering estrogen can increase tiredness etc it's a complex beast you don't need to open imo.

I know this is probably going to sound dumb but do I have this right then..

The difference between the caps and the Sustanon is with the caps I was taking 280mg's of test per day but with the sustanon, Im on 250mg's of test spread out over two weeks, is that correct?

that's a very simplistic view...but comparing orals with oils is not correct.

Oils bypass the liver and more of the hormone is released into your system than oral versions.

But 250mg spread over 2 weeks from oil-based is far less than even 25% of that daily 280mg oral Test getting through to your blood.

Can't compare 280mg oral Test with 250mg intra-muscular delivered oil-based hormones but you can surmise that you took more Test with caps than you are with oils.

Honestly, find a source and get a bottle of Sus250 it will last you 10 weeks cost you about $15/wk, and take 1 ml same day each week. It will be enough for TRT purposes. After a few weeks the overlap of the Test-Iso and Test Decanoate will rise and each week your blood levels will get a little more stable. Of course the first few days will always be the "kicker" but 1ml of Sus each week for TRT is plenty.

[mrgeeky]

Im wondering if the way for me to go might be to go back on the caps, take bloods when at the peak of test levels, ie: 5 hours after taking caps, then I'll have a base line to compare..

Otherwise everything is just guess work.

Im going to go off the sust, I hate it..

I haven't had a decent nights sleep since I have been on it. I may have to start testing other stuff to see what suits me.

The caps were far superior in every way, except: Before taking my next morning dosage I had my bloods done and my test levels were at 8 nmol/l.

That's low!

So to be feeling so good on the caps I must have a quite a high test level after taking them in the morning, only to have that drop off until my next evening dose.

After my next dose, that would peak again some where near midnight, only to drop off again to a very low level (8 nmol/l) by the next morning.. Having those highs and lows day in, day out, cant be good for a person, surely?

Im wondering if maybe I see what little amount of the caps I can live with happily! Once that's sorted, then I'll find out what my peak testosterone levels are at when on the orals/caps and then I'll have a base line to work from when experimenting with other stuff?

Does that make sense?

Or do you think to hell with it, just start taking two 1ml vials of Cyp?

The other thing I could do of course if Im going to be paying for it is to just try the Reandron?

Got a bit of experimenting to do to figure out what's best for me I think.

[Daz69]

Why are you considering Sustanon, after I explained Cypionate would give you steadier blood levels..? Can you not get Cyp.? I thought it was Med-Safe approved in New Zealand...

[mrgeeky]

Why are you considering Sustanon, after I explained Cypionate would give you steadier blood levels..? Can you not get Cyp.? I thought it was Med-Safe approved in New Zealand...

I didn't have a choice.. I thought the game plan was for the doc to prescribe Cyp but when I got the script it was for Sustanon..

I contacted the nurse today and asked her to tell the doc I want to go back on the caps.. They were far superior..

Once back on the test caps and feeling good again, I'll go have a talk to the doc and see if I can get him to change to Cyp.

I'm also going to have a play with Reandron at some stage. I need to work out whats best for me.. Not overly happy with the sustanon.. Although lack of sleep is not supposed to be a side of Sust, I have had bugger all sleep since being on it..

[tomleegolf]

Are caps not hepatoxic? How can you take 280mgs a day everyday permanently without liver failure?

[mrgeeky]

Pharmacokinetics

Absorption:

Following oral administration of ANDRIOL TESTOCAPS, an important part of the active substance

testosterone undecanoate is co-absorbed with the lipophilic solvent from the intestine into the

lymphatic system, thus partially circumventing the first-pass inactivation by the liver.

Andriol Testocaps must be taken with a normal meal or breakfast to ensure absorption. The bioavailability is about 7%.

[mrgeeky]

Are caps not hepatoxic? How can you take 280mgs a day everyday permanently without liver failure?

Had bloods done to check liver function.. Been on caps for over a year now..

Tests all came back good! :-)

[mrgeeky]

Only thing with caps, I was worried about what sort of daily spikes and troughs there would be. But after reading this pdf file, it looks ok..

http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/profs/datash ... tocaps.pdf

"Single administration of 80-160mg ANDRIOL TESTOCAPS leads to a clinically significant increase of total plasma testosterone with peak-levels of approximately 40 nmol/L (Cmax) reached approximately

4-5 hours after administration (tmax). Plasma testosterone levels remain elevated for at least 8 hours.

Testosterone and testosterone undecanoate display a high (over 97%) non specific binding to plasma

protein and sex hormone binding globulin in in vitro test."

[rocky85]

.

[mrgeeky]

Have you been diagnosed with primary or secondary hypogonadism?

or did doc just throw test at you..?

The doc just threw test at me!

There was no diagnosis of hypogonadism!

There is no doubt though, I now feel a hell of a lot better since being on TRT. For years I have felt like just laying on the couch and watching tv every day.

That's all gone! Im a new person since being on TRT. So I cant help but agree with his diagnosis.

He says you don't have to have low test to have a problem! It could be that your own Test just isn't working as it should and that's what he thinks was happening in my case.

[rocky85]

mrgeeky said:

rocky85 said:

.

.

[mrgeeky]

Have you been diagnosed with primary or secondary hypogonadism?

or did doc just throw test at you..?

The doc just threw test at me!

There was no diagnosis of hypogonadism!

There is no doubt though, I now feel a hell of a lot better since being on TRT. For years I have felt like just laying on the couch and watching tv every day.

That's all gone! Im a new person since being on TRT. So I cant help but agree with his diagnosis.

He says you don't have to have low test to have a problem! It could be that your own Test just isn't working as it should and that's what he thinks was happening in my case.

That's good mate, just would have been helpful if you ever decide to come off. From the research ive done a lot of guys both young and old have successfully came off HRT and maintained healthy testosterone levels.

All the best

There is a lot of argument surrounding this. My doctor says its impossible to come off successfully! But I know body builders do it all the time. Some say time is the major factor.. How long before its too late! That is the big question I would really love to know. I have heard tales of people coming off after a couple of years but how true is that?

And what about after 5 or 10 years?

Im not sure if any one really knows the answer to any of those questions.