Post cycle, recovery & blood test

[crazyfacials]

Keep this attitude up startingfromscratch and then all of us mods will ban you from the monthly nzbb.co.nz webcam skype conference call picnic thing we do

[nate225]

On a side note: Is there any way to actually prove that I have never had an account here before, my IP address or something? and as for being a troll well... not sure that can be proven but if there is a way feel free to let me know and ill do it. More than happy to give my username for other forums too if thats of any assistance

According to my awe-inspiring Mod powahs ( :pfft: :grin: ) you look like a new user - none of the usual multiple account giveaways.

Happy now kiddies? :grin:

[soundsgood]

[thatwaslight]

LOL REPPED

[HarryB]

Gonzo actually has some interesting points and introduces things which whilst they might be applicable in all cases are still very valid and interesting as problem solving for other steroid taking related issues.

Not sure why he's copping such a bashing.

[Daz69]

Back on topic... To the original statement regarding Deca's possible suppression of natural Test and the suggestion of using HCG on cycle....

HCG is suggested to stimulate natural test and regain testicular size on cycle... BUT...!!!!

My question is: Lutenizing hormone is a pituitary hormone that is released and signals the manufacture of testosterone in the testicals. The sex hormones in the body work via the negative feedback loop, where too much sex hormone cause a signal to the brain to stop release of (LH).

During long cycles, if natural Test is suppressed a male will note atrophy in the testes, out of disuse, by administering an LH-mimicking agent (HCG) one can bring back function of the testicles, & let them regain size..

HCG is suppressive of natural testosterone, because it takes the place of LH. LH is not the first step in the chain, instead it is manufactured in the Pituitary under the response of Gonadotropin releaseing hormone (GnRH) secreated from the Hypothalamus.

Since a LH mimicking agent is supplied exogenously the negative feedback signal to the Hypothalamus will tell it to stop making GnRH, so NO natural LH is produced.

This to me suggests using HCG artificially stimulates the testes to produce Test, but further suppresses LH (the bodys natural method)...

Shouldn't restarting the HPTA into functioning correctly after cycle be the best way forward..?

How I understand it: It is best to use a potent Estrogen receptor antagonist like Nolva or Clomid, when Androgen levels drop, these antagonists lower Estrogenic response creating a Steroid defecit that signals the Hypothalamus to start making GnRH...

If HCG is used it should be discontinued 2 weeks befor Nolva or Clomid or it will suppress natural test..!!

Thats how I see it, someone please correct me if I'm wrong...

[gonzo6183]

Back on topic... To the original statement regarding Deca's possible suppression of natural Test and the suggestion of using HCG on cycle....

HCG is suggested to stimulate natural test and regain testicular size on cycle... BUT...!!!!

My question is: Lutenizing hormone is a pituitary hormone that is released and signals the manufacture of testosterone in the testicals. The sex hormones in the body work via the negative feedback loop, where too much sex hormone cause a signal to the brain to stop release of (LH).

During long cycles, if natural Test is suppressed a male will note atrophy in the testes, out of disuse, by administering an LH-mimicking agent (HCG) one can bring back function of the testicles, & let them regain size..

HCG is suppressive of natural testosterone, because it takes the place of LH. LH is not the first step in the chain, instead it is manufactured in the Pituitary under the response of Gonadotropin releaseing hormone (GnRH) secreated from the Hypothalamus.

Since a LH mimicking agent is supplied exogenously the negative feedback signal to the Hypothalamus will tell it to stop making GnRH, so NO natural LH is produced.

This to me suggests using HCG artificially stimulates the testes to produce Test, but further suppresses LH (the bodys natural method)...

Shouldn't restarting the HPTA into functioning correctly after cycle be the best way forward..?

How I understand it: HCG is best used with a potent Estrogen receptor antagonist like Nolva or Clomid, when Androgen levels drop, these antagonists lower Estrogenic response creating a Steroid defecit that signals the Hypothalamus to start making GnRH...

HCG should be discontinued 2 weeks befor Nolva or Clomid or it will suppress natural test..!!

Thats how I see it, someone please correct me if I'm wrong...

Id say you are very close to spot on from my understanding but it also sounds like you are now in favour of HCG during cycle right? Which is exactly what I had mentioned would have been the best protocol to begin with.

The only points I feel need referencing are as highlighted above "regain testicular size" should in fact be replaces with "maintain testicular size".

This leads directly into the second highlighted part which is exaclty why we should be using the HCG on cycle. While LH is already suppressed by exogenous testosterone we can mimick the action keeping the testes in a more functional state throughout cycle, therefor the restart of the HPTA into a functional state as mentioned will be a much simpler and faster process. Thats going to give faster recover which is the entire aim here.

Now dont forget in my earlier posts I made a reference to the way I thought things "should" have been done throughout the cycle if possible, simply for future knowledge for the OP and anyone else reading that may want to take the information on board.

My actual only solution and suggestion to the OP in his current situation was to get his bloodwork done to further determine the cause of his issues and hopefully from that we would be able to offer some further more relevant advice.

[Daz69]

Back on topic... To the original statement regarding Deca's possible suppression of natural Test and the suggestion of using HCG on cycle....

HCG is suggested to stimulate natural test and regain testicular size on cycle... BUT...!!!!

My question is: Lutenizing hormone is a pituitary hormone that is released and signals the manufacture of testosterone in the testicals. The sex hormones in the body work via the negative feedback loop, where too much sex hormone cause a signal to the brain to stop release of (LH).

During long cycles, if natural Test is suppressed a male will note atrophy in the testes, out of disuse, by administering an LH-mimicking agent (HCG) one can bring back function of the testicles, & let them regain size..

HCG is suppressive of natural testosterone, because it takes the place of LH. LH is not the first step in the chain, instead it is manufactured in the Pituitary under the response of Gonadotropin releaseing hormone (GnRH) secreated from the Hypothalamus.

Since a LH mimicking agent is supplied exogenously the negative feedback signal to the Hypothalamus will tell it to stop making GnRH, so NO natural LH is produced.

This to me suggests using HCG artificially stimulates the testes to produce Test, but further suppresses LH (the bodys natural method)...

Shouldn't restarting the HPTA into functioning correctly after cycle be the best way forward..?

How I understand it: It is best to use a potent Estrogen receptor antagonist like Nolva or Clomid, when Androgen levels drop, these antagonists lower Estrogenic response creating a Steroid defecit that signals the Hypothalamus to start making GnRH...

If HCG is used it should be discontinued 2 weeks befor Nolva or Clomid or it will suppress natural test..!!

Thats how I see it, someone please correct me if I'm wrong...

Id say you are very close to spot on from my understanding but it also sounds like you are now in favour of HCG during cycle right?

This leads directly into the second highlighted part which is exaclty why we should be using the HCG on cycle. While LH is already suppressed by exogenous testosterone we can mimick the action keeping the testes in a more functional state throughout cycle, therefor the restart of the HPTA into a functional state as mentioned will be a much simpler and faster process. Thats going to give faster recover which is the entire aim here.

I am not in favour of HCG on cycle, I was explaining its mimicking action and trying to explain how I believed it was incorrect....

HCG is a naturally occurring peptide hormone, produced by the embryo in the early stages of pregnancy and later by the trophoblast to help control a pregnant womans hormones.. It is not naturally occurring in the Male body, its action mimics what LH does, it doesn't kick-start LH or any part of the HPTA.... (shouldn't kick-starting HPTA be the best option)

Might its mimicking action further suppress LH, therefore take longer for the HPTA to kick-start..?

Quote:

Since a LH mimicking agent is supplied exogenously the negative feedback signal to the Hypothalamus will tell it to stop making GnRH, so NO natural LH is produced.

Quote:

Shouldn't restarting the HPTA into functioning correctly after cycle be the best way forward..?

[gonzo6183]

Might its mimicking action further suppress LH, therefore take longer for the HPTA to kick-start..?

No I dont believe so, LH is already suppressed from the exogenous testosterone and the mimicking action keeps the testes in good condition therefor making restart a lot easier for the HPTA

Quote:

Since a LH mimicking agent is supplied exogenously the negative feedback signal to the Hypothalamus will tell it to stop making GnRH, so NO natural LH is produced.

As above

Quote:

Shouldn't restarting the HPTA into functioning correctly after cycle be the best way forward..?

Yes definitly and thats why the use of HCG to keep us in a functioning state is the best possible option IMO

Well I guess this is why we are all entitled to our own opinions, there is always a different perspective to look at. It appeared from your post that you were in favour of HCG use and your argument appeared to be solid but I guess there was some confusion there on my behalf.

From my understanding both from my research and personal use the HCG theory of stimultaing the testes and avoiding astrophy is a sure solid way to assist in the eventual restart of natural production as the testes will be in better condition to do so.

I didnt use HCG on my first cycle but I did on my second and it made a world of difference and I would never go without it again. My .02c

[Daz69]

I'd be very interested to hear views of: musclenz, Riccado, Hone, IDW, Android, on this subject......

[Daz69]

Interesting point from a Moderator on another forum:

HCG is not worth the money or risk. Leydig cell desensitization will occur over time from using it on cycle after cycle.

[Chemo]

I would take clomid but can't find any in nz :evil:

Contact the New Zealand Police, I believe they now have significant stocks..

hahah too soon daz

[musclenz]

Interesting point from a Moderator on another forum:

HCG is not worth the money or risk. Leydig cell desensitization will occur over time from using it on cycle after cycle.

Desensitization seems to be more of a problem where Hcg is used in doses around 5000iu+ those typically used in a pre PCT restart. This also raises estrogen levels & reduces LH receptor concentration & degrades testosterone synthesis in the testes. Not the best senario. Therefore it is regarded as better used on cycle at 500iu PW starting within 3 days of your first AAS shot & dropped out a week after your last TestE shot or on the button if finishing on orals.

[soundsgood]

So you're saying HCG is better used while on cycle but if not can still effectively be used in a blast post cycle to get you back online MNZ?

[Android]

I'd be very interested to hear views of: musclenz, Riccado, Hone, IDW, Android, on this subject......

I've never used it, too hard to get and I've only needed Nolvadex for my cycles. Last time off cycle was end of last year after 10mths on cycle and bloods came back within 6 weeks to normal (18nmols) with Nolvadex, DHEA, and GHRP-6 taken while off.

So not much help sorry.

[gonzo6183]

So you're saying HCG is better used while on cycle but if not can still effectively be used in a blast post cycle to get you back online MNZ?

Thats exactly what all my research has lead to and the protocol I follow. If I was not able to get HCG during cycle but managed to get some during PCT or even later it would be worth using if you felt you needed.

After all it is used that way as a fertility drug in both men and women. You guys in NZ seem to have the same drama we have in Australia, there is no HCG try asking your Doc for Ovidrel, its basically the same thing but a few studies actually show it to be more effective.

[gonzo6183]

I'd be very interested to hear views of: musclenz, Riccado, Hone, IDW, Android, on this subject......

I've never used it, too hard to get and I've only needed Nolvadex for my cycles. Last time off cycle was end of last year after 10mths on cycle and bloods came back within 6 weeks to normal (18nmols) with Nolvadex, DHEA, and GHRP-6 taken while off.

So not much help sorry.

You MAY find that those results are artificial and not actually your natural production due to the DHEA. DHEA is an androgen that is a precursors to testosterone. First it converts into Androstenediol, which in turn is converted into testosterone. The result of this may actually influence the test results that you have and may not be an accurate indication of recovery.

Being an adrogen, in high enough doses DHEA can shut you down and does not promote natural test production. DHEA in high doses is often used as a bridging compound due to its mild nature but lets not forget that it is still artificially raising test levels

[Android]

I'd be very interested to hear views of: musclenz, Riccado, Hone, IDW, Android, on this subject......

I've never used it, too hard to get and I've only needed Nolvadex for my cycles. Last time off cycle was end of last year after 10mths on cycle and bloods came back within 6 weeks to normal (18nmols) with Nolvadex, DHEA, and GHRP-6 taken while off.

So not much help sorry.

You MAY find that those results are artificial and not actually your natural production due to the DHEA. DHEA is an androgen that is a precursors to testosterone. First it converts into Androstenediol, which in turn is converted into testosterone. The result of this may actually influence the test results that you have and may not be an accurate indication of recovery.

Being an adrogen, in high enough doses DHEA can shut you down and does not promote natural test production. DHEA in high doses is often used as a bridging compound due to its mild nature but lets not forget that it is still artificially raising test levels

It was 100mg/day and the bottle lasted me for 2 weeks only, weeks 2-4 with Nolvadex. Weeks 4-6 was on GHRP-6.

During week 4 was my first of two blood tests and was 1-2nmols while taking the DHEA but feeling pretty good in the gym. Waited 2 weeks and sorry correction to above bloods were 16nmols. 18 was my natty level 4yrs ago lol...am aging :shock:

[Daz69]

Interesting point from a Moderator on another forum:

HCG is not worth the money or risk. Leydig cell desensitization will occur over time from using it on cycle after cycle.

Desensitization seems to be more of a problem where Hcg is used in doses around 5000iu+ those typically used in a pre PCT restart. This also raises estrogen levels & reduces LH receptor concentration & degrades testosterone synthesis in the testes. Not the best senario. Therefore it is regarded as better used on cycle at 500iu PW starting within 3 days of your first AAS shot & dropped out a week after your last TestE shot or on the button if finishing on orals.

Its not often I would disagree with you musclenz, maybe my understanding is incorrect...

I've never had testicular function issues whilst on cycle apart from minor shrinkage, which has never seemed a drama, things have always returned to normal after cessation of the steroid regime with or without PCT.... Even when on low-dose cruise size is regained....

The only time I have noticed minor issues is on 19-nor cycles, this is where most people I have spoken to recommend HCG use, if at all....

If Deca in this case is causing some shut-down of natural test, then let it, what's the big deal? natural test at best accounts for about 70mg/week, of which a large part is bound to SHBG therefore inactive... Compared to the 400mg/weeks being injected, it seems insignificant anyway......

I don't believe keeping testicular function working with a mimicking agent, whilst another compound is trying to shut it down (Deca) is the best option.. Its one less stress, and an artificial one at that, that the body could best do without... In my opinion...

Letting the cycle run its course then looking at restarting things naturally by kick-starting HPTA with as minimum compounds as necessary seems the healthiest option....

I've used HCG, but I'm not a fan of it, it seems an arse over tits way of doing things, when there are more minimalist options available...

I think we are quick to use compounds without best understanding their actions..... Or seeing if better alternatives, or better cycle planning is available...

My 2c........

[gonzo6183]

I've never used it, too hard to get and I've only needed Nolvadex for my cycles. Last time off cycle was end of last year after 10mths on cycle and bloods came back within 6 weeks to normal (18nmols) with Nolvadex, DHEA, and GHRP-6 taken while off.

So not much help sorry.

You MAY find that those results are artificial and not actually your natural production due to the DHEA. DHEA is an androgen that is a precursors to testosterone. First it converts into Androstenediol, which in turn is converted into testosterone. The result of this may actually influence the test results that you have and may not be an accurate indication of recovery.

Being an adrogen, in high enough doses DHEA can shut you down and does not promote natural test production. DHEA in high doses is often used as a bridging compound due to its mild nature but lets not forget that it is still artificially raising test levels

It was 100mg/day and the bottle lasted me for 2 weeks only, weeks 2-4 with Nolvadex. Weeks 4-6 was on GHRP-6.

During week 4 was my first of two blood tests and was 1-2nmols while taking the DHEA but feeling pretty good in the gym. Waited 2 weeks and sorry correction to above bloods were 16nmols. 18 was my natty level 4yrs ago lol...am aging :shock:

A 2 point drop in 4 years, you must be doing something right. I'd be stoked with that...

[musclenz]

Interesting point from a Moderator on another forum:

HCG is not worth the money or risk. Leydig cell desensitization will occur over time from using it on cycle after cycle.

Desensitization seems to be more of a problem where Hcg is used in doses around 5000iu+ those typically used in a pre PCT restart. This also raises estrogen levels & reduces LH receptor concentration & degrades testosterone synthesis in the testes. Not the best senario. Therefore it is regarded as better used on cycle at 500iu PW starting within 3 days of your first AAS shot & dropped out a week after your last TestE shot or on the button if finishing on orals.

Its not often I would disagree with you musclenz, maybe my understanding is incorrect...

I've never had testicular function issues whilst on cycle apart from minor shrinkage, which has never seemed a drama, things have always returned to normal after cessation of the steroid regime with or without PCT.... Even when on low-dose cruise size is regained....

The only time I have noticed minor issues is on 19-nor cycles, this is where most people I have spoken to recommend HCG use, if at all....

If Deca in this case is causing some shut-down of natural test, then let it, what's the big deal? natural test at best accounts for about 70mg/week, of which a large part is bound to SHBG therefore inactive... Compared to the 400mg/weeks being injected, it seems insignificant anyway......

I don't believe keeping testicular function working with a mimicking agent, whilst another compound is trying to shut it down (Deca) is the best option.. Its one less stress, and an artificial one at that, that the body could best do without... In my opinion...

Letting the cycle run its course then looking at restarting things naturally by kick-starting HPTA with as minimum compounds as necessary seems the healthiest option....

I've used HCG, but I'm not a fan of it, it seems an arse over tits way of doing things, when there are more minimalist options available...

I think we are quick to use compounds without best understanding their actions..... Or seeing if better alternatives, or better cycle planning is available...

My 2c........

From memory leydig cells only account for 10% of testicular size Daz so the size of the boys does not indicate the degree of degeneration so I'm just saying in my limited experience with Hcg (except as a dietary tool ) is that's its probably best used if your going to on cycle at low doses. In theory there then should be a smooth transition from being on cycle into a productive PCT whereby LH is restarted without too much of an issue.

However, I agree with you about it becoming another invasionary tool that we can probably live without & in fact have learned to do so in NZ because of its accessibility & price.

Yes clomid after 19 Nors or Hcg in a PCT with 19 Nors will still be a good option

[Daz69]

Thank you wise one..... :grin:

It was an hypothetical thread anyway, considering the difficulty obtaining HCG in New Zealand....

[gonzo6183]

Well it is an opinion board where we all have different opinions and experiences - the key word being DIFFERENT. IMO the best way to use the board is to review as many opinions and sources as you can and make YOUR own informed opinion and accept ownership of your decision. As we have all done :clap:

.....and if you can't take the good with the bad or only want people to agree with you all the time, don't join public forums. Not directed at anyone.

Gonzo

[ravi1414]

I would take clomid but can't find any in nz :evil:

Contact the New Zealand Police, I believe they now have significant stocks..

:pfft:

[Hone]

I'd be very interested to hear views of: musclenz, Riccado, Hone, IDW, Android, on this subject......

I hear you O'great one :grin:

I have used hCG for a number of years now, as part of PCT after cycle and while on cycle.

The most common side affect associated with hCG is gynecomastia. The concurrent intake of Nolvadex with hCG prevents gynecomastia, prevents/minimizes leydig cell desensitization and continues the stimulation of pituitary LH once hCG has been discontinued.

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to produce testosterone.

When you take AAS LH levels decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, this causes you're testes to shrink.

Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu hCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function without causing desensitization/saturation associated with high doses of hCG.

A more convenient alternative to the above recommendation would be a thrice weekly shot of 250iu hCG, or possibly a twice weekly shot of 500iu. However, it is most desirable to adhere to a lower more frequent dose of hCG to mimic the body’s natural LH release and minimize estrogen conversion.

Another protocol is the blast method, this can be used if for some reason you haven't ran hCG on cycle.

This is often used towards the end of a cycle and/or the run up to PCT. Much higher doses are used, anywhere from 1000iu-5000iu. An example would be 2500iu - 5000iu shot 2-3 x wkly for 4wks.

A 6000iu shot increased testosterone by 50% but did not alter the T > E ratio. In fact some athletes have used hcg at 5000iu weekly while coming off cycle to successfully balance the T > E ratio.

I think it's worth pointing out that in clinical studies it was shown that a single 10000iu shot desensitized the leydig cells for 96hrs.

I am now using and advocating the protocol of 1000iu injected once weekly.

Here is the science behind this protocol.

An in vivo injection or an episode of LH secretion induced by GnRH, results in stimulation of the side-chain cleavage enzyme with the subsequent release of testosterone within 30-60 minutes of LH stimulation. The acute response to an injection of LH is dramatic in some species such as the rat and the ram but is much more attenuated in the human. This testosterone response lasts approximately 24-48 hours. If human chorionic gonadotrophin is used as an LH substitute, the kinetics of the initial stimulation are similar to LH but a second peak of testosterone secretion is evidence with hCG and occurs 48-72 hours after the initial injection. This biphasic pattern has been attributed to the observation that between 24 and 48 hours after an LH or hCG injection, the Leydig cells are refractory to further stimulation by either hormone. The second phase of testosterone secretion after hCG but not LH is associated with the longer half-life of hCG in comparison to LH. The hCG levels persist in the circulation and, following recovery from the refractoriness, testosterone levels increase. This observation has significant clinical importance since, in many men, a single weekly injection of hCG will suffice to maintain optimum testosterone responses rather than the frequent practice of giving injections of hCG two to three times per week.

The stimulation of leydig cells with large amounts of hCG rapidly reduces their number of receptors, this phenemenom is termed down-regulation. Although these changes decrease testosterone levels to just above diurnal maxima 24-48hrs after initial injection repeated stimulation does not yield the same results. A single injection of hCG is followed by a long steroidogenic response characterized by two phases of testosterone secretion. Studies show that this second phase which can last as long as 8 days can increase testosterone in plasma by 2.2 x above maximal diurnal secretion even though hCG is no longer present in plasma. The results indicate that hCG injections can be given every 6-7 days due to the prolonged steroidogenic response. It is advisable to start this protocol around week 2-3 in the cycle and continue till the start of PCT.

As stated hCG can cause gyno, this is probably due to to hCG's ability to incease the dynamics of the CYP450 enzyme, the aromatase enzyme is part of this family so it's possible to note a marked increase in aromatase activity, this should not prove to be a problem if you are already taking Nolva or an AI on cycle for estrogen management but it is something that you need to be aware of.

hCG use and the P450 cytochrome:

Firstly a little basic info on the P450 enzyme and why hCG use on cycle is extremely beneficial. The CYP450 (cytochrome P450) enzyme system is a key pathway for drug metabolism. Many lipophilic drugs must undergo biotransformation to more hydrophilic compounds to be excreted from the body.

The majority of drugs undergo phase I metabolism (e.g., oxidation, reduction) by CYP450 enzymes, this is especially indicative of anabolic androgenic steroids and endogenous steroid hormones. This is a good reason to use hCG. In laymans terms hCG increases the dynamics of CYP450 which in turn increases the rate at which drugs can be metabolized, which in turn increases protein dynamics.

Basically by the action of hCG on P450 dynamics it also increases pregnenolone which is the precursor for all other steroid hormones and has many benefits, one of which is that it serves to keep/restore a natural hormonal balance within this key pathway even if the HPTA is suppressed, it also has energizing, anti-stress benefits, elevates mood through the raising of NDMA activity and reduces excess Cortisol, so if we can increase this steroid hormone with the use of hCG, we should.

That's it off to the gym