first prop cycle help

[I Declare War]

yeah bro everythings wicked as, i couldnt even bench 100kg for 1rep before cycle, now im doing 120kg for 3 reps TO THE CHEST !!!!!

Squated 120kg to the ground for 5reps 1st time ever today

the plan in the last 4weeks is to do 300mg prop and 200mg tren ace, im sure others wont want to here that !! but im doing it

Wtf, you couldnt even bench 100 and you started to cycle? I've got the same lifts as you and I'm only 69 kgs.

dont be a cock i can lift off 140 easy but it only counts when it hits the chest, but im not a phaggot who does it at a half rep, youtube pro bodybuilders not one of them doesnt bench to the chest. you bench 100kg at 69kg ????? lol one of those guys aye?? i can just it, no full range of movement, bad form, back arching, elbows shaking

this is a forum of opinions, you wont get anywhere arguing with me, ur behind a computer and so am i.

Form is greater than weight and always will be, taking steroids has nothing to do with trying to be a meathead and maximise my weights i life, i getting insane lean gains and shedding fat, i eat healthy and thats y i do it

tomlee's pretty strong for his size man. Apparently he can pull a 180kg deadlift off the floor... not bad given his limited training experience and bodywweight.

you're not giving natural training enough credit. have a look at this.

The guy being accused of being on the juice, Kiwiol, I know for a fact did not juice. He just trained insane(ly) smart and ate a lot. Bigger and stronger than 95% of any of the guys on this board, I bet!

Kiwiol's been away from the weights for a few years now, but I've persuaded him to make a comeback... so I'll be having some training sessions with him in the next few months and I'm honestly scared, that's how insane his work-ethic is.

Steroids give you the ability to add an extra ~10% above and beyond what you may achieve naturally; they're like the icing on the cake. As I see it, you're starting out with steroids at about 20% of where you could have gotten to without them. You do not have a proper appreciation of the merits of hard work and as such your trying to build a house on no foundation, so to speak.

Have a good think and re-evaluate things mate.I'm not saying you need to quit jucing, that's your decision ultimately. I am saying, though, that if you want to make the best out of what you're doing you will need to come up with a different attitude and give training and diet much more priority than you are. Good luck.

[Specter]

im in week 9 of 16, also running tren ace, winstrol and clenbuterol

wow strong second cycle, doses of each? oral or depot winny? joints?

yeah bro everythings wicked as, i couldnt even bench 100kg for 1rep before cycle, now im doing 120kg for 3 reps TO THE CHEST !!!!! WTF?

im currently on 200mg prop, 100mg tren EOD and i have winstrol inject but i cant draw the shit out so im just drinking it 50mg each day not noticing it really but ive bought it so im using it. Ive been tappering my doses up slowly, only started on 100prop and 50tren, start 250mg prop and 150mg tren on saturday. i know theres alot of talk about increasing doses not doing anything and just getting more sides but im just getting stronger and stronger. Squated 120kg to the ground for 5reps 1st time ever today

the plan in the last 4weeks is to do 300mg prop and 200mg tren ace, im sure others wont want to here that !! but im doing it

[HarryB]

I dont understand the mantra of once you go up you cant come down?? I've run several cycles at the same even lower doses and grown? It's not like once you've done a gram anything less than that won't yield results.... Thoughts?

No I agree you can run similar doses and still gain. You can shut down your receptors and then your body needs more to respond, but if you take your breaks etc etc then you will still respond. It's just that guys rarely come down... and I am just one who advocates doing the least you have to to get a good result.

Hey Harry... You've made reference to Receptor shut-down/downgrade several times... There has been some debate on this subject recently... May I quote an article I came across:

THE MYTH OF RECEPTOR DOWNGRADE

There is much talk on the net about roids some people know what they are talking about, and some well are just reinforcing myths. One thing I hear about all the time is the topic of androgen receptors or (ARs). It seems many people still believe that over the course of a cycle ARs downgrade this just isn’t the case. People argue the downgrade point because of the fact there comes a time growth slows or stops though the dose of testosterone hasn't changed.

It also stems from the fact that we know other receptors of the body do downgrade. Take ephedrine for example, it binds to beta-receptors, over a period of time the number of receptors on a target cell begins to decrease. This is due to a decrease in the half-life of receptor proteins without a decrease in the rate that the cell is making new receptors which leads to a decrease in the potency of a given dose.

The above happens with many substances and receptors but androgen receptors are very different. Many studies that are coming out these days show in the presence of high concentrations of testosterone receptors up regulate to consume the higher amounts of testosterone in the body. When you stop growing it is not because of down regulation and here is why.

Most everyone knows a little about how steroids work increased protein synthesis right? Well there is much more to it than that. They also increase the activity of satellite cells, GH and igf-1, also increase new myofiber formation.

In one study I read a 500mg injection of testosterone per week increased GH levels by 18% and IGF-1 levels by 15% that shows a powerful effect! Activation of satellite cells by testosterone requires IGF-1 and as a loop effect aromatized test that turns to estrogen again increases IGF-1 so each plays off the other with the end result being increased satellite cell production. This leads to a greater capacity for protein synthesis by increasing fusion of satellite cells to existing fibers.

Proliferation of satellite cells is needed in order to meet the needs of thousands of muscle cells all potentially requiring additional nuclei. Differentiation is necessary in order for the new nucleus to behave as a nucleus of muscle origin. The number of myonuclei directly determines the capacity of a muscle cell to manufacture proteins, including androgen receptors.

So you see the increased test levels actually increase satellite cells which in turn down the road increase receptors. It also seems the higher the dose the more the activity of satellite cells increase. That doesn't mean jump right in to 2-3g doses of test you have to build up receptors over time. All jumping up to a huge amount of test will do is give you an estrogen level of a tranny queen who happens to have muscle lol.

Here are a few quotes to support my claims

Endocrinology (1990) 126 1165. In fibroblasts cultured from human genital skin which contained very low amounts of 5-alpha reductase, 2 nanomolar tritium-labeled testosterone [which is sufficient to saturate ARs] produced a 34% increase in androgen receptors as measured by specific AR binding, the best assay method known, and 20 nanomolar tritium-labeled testosterone produced an increase of 64% in number of ARs.

J Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology (1990) 37 553. In cultured adipocytes, methyltrienolone and testosterone demonstrated marked up regulation of AR content upon administration of androgen. 10 nanomolar methyltrienolone increased AR content (as measured by binding to radiolabeled androgen) by more than five times, relative to zero androgen.

J Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology (1993) 45 333. In cultured smooth muscle cells from the penis of the rat, mRNA production was found to be up regulated by high dose testosterone (100 nanomolar) or DHT. When 5-alpha reducatase was inhibited by finasteride, thus blocking metabolism to DHT, AR mRNA production was down regulated in response to testosterone. Blockage of the aromatization pathway to estrogen by fadrozole eliminated this downregulation effect. Estradiol itself was found to down regulate AR mRNA production in these cells.

Endocrinol Japan (1992) 39 235. One nanomolar DHT was demonstrated to increase AR protein by over 100% within 24 hours, relative to zero androgen level. The half life of the AR was demonstrated to increase from 3.3 h to 7.5 h as a result of the androgen administration.

Endocrinology (1996) 137 1385. 100 nanomolar testosterone was found to increase AR levels in vitro in muscle satellite cells, myotubes, and muscle-derived fibroblasts.

The main reason growth stops when the dose remains the same is the body doesn't like change, it will fight you every step of the way. When you increase the amount of anabolic hormones, catabolic hormones will rise as well. When the concentration of catabolic hormones is high enough growth is off set or even stops. When that happens you can do one of two things. Stop taking gear so the body can return to normal or increase the amount of test to once more be in an anabolic state. The increase in receptors is the reason you can use more and more test every cycle, and the funny thing is these receptors once built will hang around for a very long time even years ever increasing your ability to build muscle .

Your thoughts please Harry....

My thoughts...

It's an interesting article? lol..

It kind of supports what I say about needing to change your drugs or increase your dosage if you don't have time off. Maybe the number of receptors increases so you can take more, but it can't be very efficient because we don't notice more gains with more drugs? We all gained our best in our first couple of cycles and now just try and work out things to keep our gains meandering along. If you take time off you can gain on similar or even smaller doses than previously up to a point. But are we making those 10 and 15k leaps we did when we first started? My guess is no, not for me anyway. I would say that after often a while we are just treading over old ground. You have been at it for the same amount of time as I have Daz... and you know how it goes. We tick along keeping our test levels somewhere we think we feel good and are training well. Then if we want to progress a bit we whack a bit more in. I gain still on relatively low doses but I also space out my shots and try and keep my body and receptors available to test by not saturating my system.

I did just read an interesting article about front end loading and then tapering enough to just keep your levels elevated.

One of the reasons I am experimenting with peptides is to get more bang for my buck with gear. It's all about efficiency for me.

I learn a lot from everyone else's experiences on here that's for sure.

[Daz69]

My thoughts...

It's an interesting article? lol..

It kind of supports what I say about needing to change your drugs or increase your dosage if you don't have time off. Maybe the number of receptors increases so you can take more, but it can't be very efficient because we don't notice more gains with more drugs? We all gained our best in our first couple of cycles and now just try and work out things to keep our gains meandering along. If you take time off you can gain on similar or even smaller doses than previously up to a point. But are we making those 10 and 15k leaps we did when we first started? My guess is no, not for me anyway. I would say that after often a while we are just treading over old ground. You have been at it for the same amount of time as I have Daz... and you know how it goes. We tick along keeping our test levels somewhere we think we feel good and are training well. Then if we want to progress a bit we whack a bit more in. I gain still on relatively low doses but I also space out my shots and try and keep my body and receptors available to test by not saturating my system.

I did just read an interesting article about front end loading and then tapering enough to just keep your levels elevated.

One of the reasons I am experimenting with peptides is to get more bang for my buck with gear. It's all about efficiency for me.

I learn a lot from everyone else's experiences on here that's for sure.

Treading over old ground, Your right there Harry... It would be nice to think there might be one more push of 10-15kgs..... But I suspect not.... :cry:

[thatwaslight]

harry can you please give me the run down down on peptides if its not too complicated?

[HarryB]

My thoughts...

It's an interesting article? lol..

It kind of supports what I say about needing to change your drugs or increase your dosage if you don't have time off. Maybe the number of receptors increases so you can take more, but it can't be very efficient because we don't notice more gains with more drugs? We all gained our best in our first couple of cycles and now just try and work out things to keep our gains meandering along. If you take time off you can gain on similar or even smaller doses than previously up to a point. But are we making those 10 and 15k leaps we did when we first started? My guess is no, not for me anyway. I would say that after often a while we are just treading over old ground. You have been at it for the same amount of time as I have Daz... and you know how it goes. We tick along keeping our test levels somewhere we think we feel good and are training well. Then if we want to progress a bit we whack a bit more in. I gain still on relatively low doses but I also space out my shots and try and keep my body and receptors available to test by not saturating my system.

I did just read an interesting article about front end loading and then tapering enough to just keep your levels elevated.

One of the reasons I am experimenting with peptides is to get more bang for my buck with gear. It's all about efficiency for me.

I learn a lot from everyone else's experiences on here that's for sure.

Treading over old ground, Your right there Harry... It would be nice to think there might be one more push of 10-15kgs..... But I suspect not.... :cry:

I actually think we can still make some awesome gains at this stage of our training lives, mostly because we know how to TRAIN so much better and how to EAT more effectively. What I find now that I didn't as a young guy is my discipline is so much stronger! Plus I know how my body FEELS, so I know what's doing what and when something is effective. In the young days it was more just using whatever shreds of info you could find and trying to put them into practice and kind of HOPING something would happen lol... now I know the steps, I know what works and even though I am always trying NEW things I am much more quickly able to ascertain their effectiveness. I guess I am just more patient maybe?

I mean I am not going to gain loads of new muscle but hell I CAN and WILL grow new muscle and I am smarter now about balancing my development out. Same as I imagine you are.

[HarryB]

harry can you please give me the run down down on peptides if its not too complicated?

I never do anything complicated lol, too dumb for that!

My rudimentary understanding is that they are pieces of the GH chain. Some smart buggers have worked out which bits of the chain do what and they produce these segments that specifically target those actions. There are some really interesting write ups about ghrp6 and CJC which are worth a read. I did some reading up before I decided to have a crack and happy to pass on my experiences.

[thatwaslight]

harry can you please give me the run down down on peptides if its not too complicated?

I never do anything complicated lol, too dumb for that!

My rudimentary understanding is that they are pieces of the GH chain. Some smart buggers have worked out which bits of the chain do what and they produce these segments that specifically target those actions. There are some really interesting write ups about ghrp6 and CJC which are worth a read. I did some reading up before I decided to have a crack and happy to pass on my experiences.

ahh i see a few questions,

injection frequency/ timing?

is it more or less expensive than gh?

duration you run it for?

best run with slin?

what kind of results do you notice? is it like gh where the benefit is long term?

[HarryB]

harry can you please give me the run down down on peptides if its not too complicated?

I never do anything complicated lol, too dumb for that!

My rudimentary understanding is that they are pieces of the GH chain. Some smart buggers have worked out which bits of the chain do what and they produce these segments that specifically target those actions. There are some really interesting write ups about ghrp6 and CJC which are worth a read. I did some reading up before I decided to have a crack and happy to pass on my experiences.

ahh i see a few questions,

injection frequency/ timing?

is it more or less expensive than gh?

duration you run it for?

best run with slin?

what kind of results do you notice? is it like gh where the benefit is long term?

ok...

I take ghrp6 200mcg, 0.2ml twice day, once directly after training and once before bed, everyday subq. I take 200mcg, 0.2ml CJC with my nighttime ghrp6.

First time taking CJC so I will let you know how I find it. ghrp6 I like, notice better recovery, good skin (yeah gay as) and really helped me process food, good appetite etc etc etc which is what it is supposed to do. I also notice good muscle fullness and muscle retention while dieting. If anything I felt like I was growing and I seriously don't eat much at all. The test for me was taking it after I stopped cycling gear and to be honest I felt great, retained muscle and condition. I am hooked on this shit. lol

CJC is supposed to help with conditioning and now I am upping my carbs and overall cals I want to gain some weight but only if I can stay in good condition. So theres a test for it and I will let you know how it goes.

It's cheap as chips compared to GH, I don't run it with slin but I don't see why you wouldn't. I just personally don't like using insulin... although... maybe?

Supposed to be longer term benefits as with GH and I think I will just run it until I run out of money lol I think of it like gh which you can just run long term. I did 6 weeks last cycle of it and will do it now until I can't get anymore... (Semi srs)

[train_insane]

wow strong second cycle, doses of each? oral or depot winny? joints?

yeah bro everythings wicked as, i couldnt even bench 100kg for 1rep before cycle, now im doing 120kg for 3 reps TO THE CHEST !!!!! WTF?

im currently on 200mg prop, 100mg tren EOD and i have winstrol inject but i cant draw the shit out so im just drinking it 50mg each day not noticing it really but ive bought it so im using it. Ive been tappering my doses up slowly, only started on 100prop and 50tren, start 250mg prop and 150mg tren on saturday. i know theres alot of talk about increasing doses not doing anything and just getting more sides but im just getting stronger and stronger. Squated 120kg to the ground for 5reps 1st time ever today

the plan in the last 4weeks is to do 300mg prop and 200mg tren ace, im sure others wont want to here that !! but im doing it

For starters BRO ! im not an advocate of doing 3reps or even 6 for that matter doing the 120kg for 3 is simply a gauge of my strength increase, yeah sure i probably could do it for 8ish with typical bad form like 90% of egotistical gym goers but il perfer to make it count that is all

[tomleegolf]

yeah bro everythings wicked as, i couldnt even bench 100kg for 1rep before cycle, now im doing 120kg for 3 reps TO THE CHEST !!!!!

Squated 120kg to the ground for 5reps 1st time ever today

the plan in the last 4weeks is to do 300mg prop and 200mg tren ace, im sure others wont want to here that !! but im doing it

Wtf, you couldnt even bench 100 and you started to cycle? I've got the same lifts as you and I'm only 69 kgs.

dont be a cock i can lift off 140 easy but it only counts when it hits the chest, but im not a phaggot who does it at a half rep, youtube pro bodybuilders not one of them doesnt bench to the chest. you bench 100kg at 69kg ????? lol one of those guys aye?? i can just it, no full range of movement, bad form, back arching, elbows shaking

this is a forum of opinions, you wont get anywhere arguing with me, ur behind a computer and so am i.

Form is greater than weight and always will be, taking steroids has nothing to do with trying to be a meathead and maximise my weights i life, i getting insane lean gains and shedding fat, i eat healthy and thats y i do it

Sorry mate, not trying to piss you off, just saying.

Yes I do arch when benching and 90kgs is the best I have benched in a comp at 68.6kgs, remember that is to the chest and with a good pause. Will attempt 100kgs at North Island champs. I have vids on my workout journal.

Go hard, I hope you keep your strength after your cycle.

[HarryB]

Wtf, you couldnt even bench 100 and you started to cycle? I've got the same lifts as you and I'm only 69 kgs.

dont be a cock i can lift off 140 easy but it only counts when it hits the chest, but im not a phaggot who does it at a half rep, youtube pro bodybuilders not one of them doesnt bench to the chest. you bench 100kg at 69kg ????? lol one of those guys aye?? i can just it, no full range of movement, bad form, back arching, elbows shaking

this is a forum of opinions, you wont get anywhere arguing with me, ur behind a computer and so am i.

Form is greater than weight and always will be, taking steroids has nothing to do with trying to be a meathead and maximise my weights i life, i getting insane lean gains and shedding fat, i eat healthy and thats y i do it

Sorry mate, not trying to piss you off, just saying.

Yes I do arch when benching and 90kgs is the best I have benched in a comp at 68.6kgs, remember that is to the chest and with a good pause. Will attempt 100kgs at North Island champs. I have vids on my workout journal.

Go hard, I hope you keep your strength after your cycle.

You one of those guys who thinks cos someone does something you can't or couldn't they must be cheating like hell or have terrible form? Interesting. All that gas and 120k for 3? Your genetics must suck.

[I Declare War]

dont be a cock i can lift off 140 easy but it only counts when it hits the chest, but im not a phaggot who does it at a half rep, youtube pro bodybuilders not one of them doesnt bench to the chest. you bench 100kg at 69kg ????? lol one of those guys aye?? i can just it, no full range of movement, bad form, back arching, elbows shaking

this is a forum of opinions, you wont get anywhere arguing with me, ur behind a computer and so am i.

Form is greater than weight and always will be, taking steroids has nothing to do with trying to be a meathead and maximise my weights i life, i getting insane lean gains and shedding fat, i eat healthy and thats y i do it

Sorry mate, not trying to piss you off, just saying.

Yes I do arch when benching and 90kgs is the best I have benched in a comp at 68.6kgs, remember that is to the chest and with a good pause. Will attempt 100kgs at North Island champs. I have vids on my workout journal.

Go hard, I hope you keep your strength after your cycle.

You one of those guys who thinks cos someone does something you can't or couldn't they must be cheating like hell or have terrible form? Interesting. All that gas and 120k for 3? Your genetics must suck.

It must be his will power and work ethic.. it takes a lot of that to max out even the suckiest genetics!

[train_insane]

Wtf, you couldnt even bench 100 and you started to cycle? I've got the same lifts as you and I'm only 69 kgs.

dont be a cock i can lift off 140 easy but it only counts when it hits the chest, but im not a phaggot who does it at a half rep, youtube pro bodybuilders not one of them doesnt bench to the chest. you bench 100kg at 69kg ????? lol one of those guys aye?? i can just it, no full range of movement, bad form, back arching, elbows shaking

this is a forum of opinions, you wont get anywhere arguing with me, ur behind a computer and so am i.

Form is greater than weight and always will be, taking steroids has nothing to do with trying to be a meathead and maximise my weights i life, i getting insane lean gains and shedding fat, i eat healthy and thats y i do it

Sorry mate, not trying to piss you off, just saying.

Yes I do arch when benching and 90kgs is the best I have benched in a comp at 68.6kgs, remember that is to the chest and with a good pause. Will attempt 100kgs at North Island champs. I have vids on my workout journal.

Go hard, I hope you keep your strength after your cycle.

cheers bro i never know when someones bagging me or not !! i love what i do, and having heaps of fun doing it !!

[train_insane]

yeah bro everythings wicked as, i couldnt even bench 100kg for 1rep before cycle, now im doing 120kg for 3 reps TO THE CHEST !!!!!

Squated 120kg to the ground for 5reps 1st time ever today

the plan in the last 4weeks is to do 300mg prop and 200mg tren ace, im sure others wont want to here that !! but im doing it

Wtf, you couldnt even bench 100 and you started to cycle? I've got the same lifts as you and I'm only 69 kgs.

very interesting that you said this to me, i just witnessed a video of you failing to get 85kg of your chest ..... same lifts?

[DANIEL8]

so 100 is the bench mark to start a cycle ? lol, if you cant do 100 now you sure as heck will after your cycle

[train_insane]

im simply making a point at the end of the day i dont care how much i lift, im not a bodybuilder, im shaping my body and i use steroids to speed up the process

[DANIEL8]

im simply making a point at the end of the day i dont care how much i lift, im not a bodybuilder, im shaping my body and i use steroids to speed up the process

that wasnt aimed at you, it was aimed at tomleegolf

[train_insane]

im simply making a point at the end of the day i dont care how much i lift, im not a bodybuilder, im shaping my body and i use steroids to speed up the process

that wasnt aimed at you, it was aimed at tomleegolf

lol my bad bro, this forums tuff, dont know who attacking who, glad you see my point tho

[thatwaslight]

^ lol

[hhhh1]

how much do you weigh train_insane?

[train_insane]

how much do you weigh train_insane?[/q

are you trying to rate my bench to my weight?

[DANIEL8]

haha lol. what else would he be doing

[train_insane]

jumping on the attacking band wagon, im currenlty 89kg - 90kg, my weight fluctuates alot when im on clenbuterol

[AZIDE]

.