Advocating Kids to stand up for themselves!

[Chemo]

Been there in my younger days.

Worst mistake I ever made was to try ignore the bullies till they went away, this just marks you as a pussy and an easy target. If I let that carry on I'm sure I'd be a bitch fo lyfe. No one wants that for them or their family.

The psychological issues one could have from just taking a beating or harassment is far worse than a slap on the hand or an after school detention.

I like that three strikes and your out strategy you've taught your wee sprout Specter, it may get him in trouble in the short term but will mean that hopefully in the future kids wont test him and is well within the self defence bubble. As he gets older the problems should be less frequent, and he would've learnt more self control and you can lecture him about violence being the second option

I think kids that don't scrap, play bullrush or rugby when they are younger have a lesser respect of physical encounters, and will have a greater chance to do serious damage later on in life, and not knowing when to stop.

Be sure to not let your wee sprout become the bully though

Hard call, either way its a shit situation, good luck!

IMO

[jimjim83]

This is a really difficult question, and as a primary school teacher I see a lot of this sort of stuff. My two cents...

I have had a number of children in my class over the years who are what I would describe as passive and extremely non violent - however, they are never the victims of bullying. They have devised other effective strategies to deal with conflict situations. Perhaps you could look into teaching and talking through some other strategies with your son

What strategies are available that don't involve consciously avoiding any sort of eye, spoken or physical contact with the bully so as not to become the object of his violent actions......

Why should the innocent child not be able to get on & do what he wants whilst minding his own business.?

The problem is the Bully................ The Bully should be dealt with.

(or asking the teacher to teach them). It may seem like a cop out, but realistically you can't teach your son that it's ok to react with violence. Part of this comes from the pacifist inside me, the other is the simple fact that your child will get into trouble for reacting with violence.

Why..?

NZ Crimes Act 1961:

Section 48: Self defense & defense of another.

Every one is justified in using, in the defense of himself or another, such force as, in the circumstances as he believes them to be, it is reasonable to use.

Why confuse a child with the expectations at school regarding violence and the ones you have at home.

The crimes act doesnt really apply to children.

Its even hader explaining S62Ca61 to a 5year old.

The problem isnt the bully its the bullys family. The kid is acting out for a reason (most of the time).

Im all for a bit of kicking arse but you have to becareful not to teach your children violence is the way to deal with their problems. Sure fight back if your getting a hiding but name calling etcshouldnt be solved with viloence. .

Its a tough one. I think teachers need to hound the parents of the bully, I guess the problem with that though is the kid might get beaten and raped more for misbehaving at school.

[two_phat]

Actually as a teacher I would be more qualified as thats not only part of the university education I received but also something I encounter more than the average person. And looking at particular aspects of NZ society today - I'd say more of focus on that side of things should be welcomed not shunned....

I think we're getting off topic focusing on the bullying instead of the son - I'm not trying to say that the bully isn't the problem, the bully is the problem. However...it's often very hard to deal with somebody who consistently bullies another child (for various reasons I won't go into). And it seems your doing all you can to combat that side of things, which is great.

Here's a interesting thought then; there's very little difference in size with children that age - it all comes down to who is more aggressive, controlling etc. Lets say your son stands up for himself, hits the bully and wins. He feels good about that. He feels strong and powerful. This happens again with another child. Next time a conflict comes around the child then decides to react with his fists as he knows this ends arguements quickly...plus its worked before. Who then is the bully?

Obviously I'm not saying this will happen, but how do you ensure it won't happen?

[tomsammce]

if we spent less time being pc and bowing down to others and their pussified beliefs , we would be better off.

I have two teenage boys both have been f'd with at school 1 year of muay thai for the 17 year old and a year of weights for the 14 year old , who by the way is in the first 15 and deadlifts 100kgs for reps and pow the h,mo bullies disperse.

once we leave the playground , life still reflects it, theres just no teachers, the same douche bag bullies still exist , I say f it if someone lays hands on you in your personal space whatever the age...guillotine choke them , or elbow strike their orbitol , or straight k.o them end of story...good on all your sons or daughters for sticking up for themselves.

elbow strike their head? straight KO them? lol.... thats not really worth the risk of years in prison for manslaughter when it all goes terribly wrong.... or is it?

[jimjim83]

if we spent less time being pc and bowing down to others and their pussified beliefs , we would be better off.

I have two teenage boys both have been f'd with at school 1 year of muay thai for the 17 year old and a year of weights for the 14 year old , who by the way is in the first 15 and deadlifts 100kgs for reps and pow the h,mo bullies disperse.

once we leave the playground , life still reflects it, theres just no teachers, the same douche bag bullies still exist , I say f it if someone lays hands on you in your personal space whatever the age...guillotine choke them , or elbow strike their orbitol , or straight k.o them end of story...good on all your sons or daughters for sticking up for themselves.

elbow strike their head? straight KO them? lol.... thats not really worth the risk of years in prison for manslaughter when it all goes terribly wrong.... or is it?

They can use their fighting skills when they are in prison. Read S62Ca61, Criminally responsible for any excess force used.

[severe]

If everyone treated bullies with instant damage, they would pull their heads in.

The only reason they stopped with me was because I made teh decision not to take it. I advocate this with my son and daughter.

Bullies by definition have issues, many of which lie outside school.

No fluffy words will stop them. No 'name and shame' will stop them. But, there is one language they understand... a smack down. They learn who to play with and who not to.

The only danger with this is that the victim starts becoming a bully.

The key to removing the bully is to liberate the fear of the victim.

Empower the victim. Don't tell them they screwed up as well. FFS, defending yourself is the last freedom. Lose that, and you may as well give up.

I tell my 'clients' to treat others with more of the same, but with interest. If people are kind, life is great, if people are wankers, dish it back.

Forget degrees... I have one too. rhetrical slants from socialogy texts are given to university students with an objective. That you accept and regurgitate it back. I know plenty of teachers, and uni was being clever at lip service.

[bigdan1978]

if we spent less time being pc and bowing down to others and their pussified beliefs , we would be better off.

I have two teenage boys both have been f'd with at school 1 year of muay thai for the 17 year old and a year of weights for the 14 year old , who by the way is in the first 15 and deadlifts 100kgs for reps and pow the h,mo bullies disperse.

once we leave the playground , life still reflects it, theres just no teachers, the same douche bag bullies still exist , I say f it if someone lays hands on you in your personal space whatever the age...guillotine choke them , or elbow strike their orbitol , or straight k.o them end of story...good on all your sons or daughters for sticking up for themselves.

elbow strike their head? straight KO them? lol.... thats not really worth the risk of years in prison for manslaughter when it all goes terribly wrong.... or is it?

They can use their fighting skills when they are in prison. Read S62Ca61, Criminally responsible for any excess force used.

on the contrary, the youth court is so shit in new zealand theyd get community service, a youth would get diversion on the first offence, upon being attacked to subdue someone with enough force is justified.

Manslaughter Id rather see them do a lag than my kids dead from getting stomped because they took the pussy way out and turned the other cheek .

Men are men irrespective of what you say, if someone was smacking over your old man or your brother would you say, oh Id better consult the new zealand law book on this matter....shit I cant do anything because I may use excessive force.

Grow a pair

[Chemo]

elbow strike their head? straight KO them? lol.... thats not really worth the risk of years in prison for manslaughter when it all goes terribly wrong.... or is it?

They can use their fighting skills when they are in prison. Read S62Ca61, Criminally responsible for any excess force used.

on the contrary, the youth court is so shit in new zealand theyd get community service, a youth would get diversion on the first offence, upon being attacked to subdue someone with enough force is justified.

Manslaughter Id rather see them do a lag than my kids dead from getting stomped because they took the pussy way out and turned the other cheek .

Men are men irrespective of what you say, if someone was smacking over your old man or your brother would you say, oh Id better consult the new zealand law book on this matter....shit I cant do anything because I may use excessive force.

Grow a pair

FULL ON BROOO, GET WILD WIF DA CURB STOMPING IMO

shit thats extreme

Grow a brain

[severe]

I advocate offensive defense, but once teh threat has been removed, you stop.

No chasing them 200mtrs to kick them in.

No holding on a choke till they die, as a one size fits all statement.

Fight back, but be strategic. You can smash them good, without the need to go to court.

Advocating mayhem isn't going to help the one defending themselves in teh long run. The message gets through from a knock out, as it does from a spinal injury with broken ribs. The first isn't as risky in court as teh latter.

[two_phat]

Haha fair enough severe - uni was somewhat of a joke.

Let's be fair though - a 'bully' at this age isn't really the stereotypical school yard bully. Very very rarely would you get a child that would spend the entire year going round bullying other children. In my experience one child might be the bully for one week, then completely fine the next, then become a victim the next.

[tomsammce]

elbow strike their head? straight KO them? lol.... thats not really worth the risk of years in prison for manslaughter when it all goes terribly wrong.... or is it?

They can use their fighting skills when they are in prison. Read S62Ca61, Criminally responsible for any excess force used.

on the contrary, the youth court is so shit in new zealand theyd get community service, a youth would get diversion on the first offence, upon being attacked to subdue someone with enough force is justified.

Manslaughter Id rather see them do a lag than my kids dead from getting stomped because they took the pussy way out and turned the other cheek .

Men are men irrespective of what you say, if someone was smacking over your old man or your brother would you say, oh Id better consult the new zealand law book on this matter....shit I cant do anything because I may use excessive force.

Grow a pair

u grow a pair and stop talking shit thinking the sun shines out ur kids arses... for f*ck sake lol i know your brainless type all too well

[jimjim83]

elbow strike their head? straight KO them? lol.... thats not really worth the risk of years in prison for manslaughter when it all goes terribly wrong.... or is it?

They can use their fighting skills when they are in prison. Read S62Ca61, Criminally responsible for any excess force used.

on the contrary, the youth court is so shit in new zealand theyd get community service, a youth would get diversion on the first offence, upon being attacked to subdue someone with enough force is justified.

Manslaughter Id rather see them do a lag than my kids dead from getting stomped because they took the pussy way out and turned the other cheek .

Men are men irrespective of what you say, if someone was smacking over your old man or your brother would you say, oh Id better consult the new zealand law book on this matter....shit I cant do anything because I may use excessive force.

Grow a pair

Well s48 covers you defending yourself and defense of another but s62 still comes into play.

guillotine choke them , or elbow strike their orbitol , or straight k.o them end of story

The above isnt excatly covered.

If you want you son raped and your daughter fisted in prison keep teaching them what your teaching them, winner.

[tinytraps]

Jimjim how many crims you lay a beat down on in a week?

[jimjim83]

Jimjim how many crims you lay a beat down on in a week?

Only the very brave or very stupid have a go.

[tomsammce]

Jimjim how many crims you lay a beat down on in a week?

Only the very brave or very stupid have a go.

what about the fast ones? ya know i dnt think youd be a fast runner jimjim... what do you do the 100m dash in... id be thinking anything over 100-150mtrs if the crim ran for that he would be sure to get away..,. or would u just get in car and run them over?

[Pseudonym]

Wow, this has turned into a really good debate. Convincing arguments from both sides of the fence, and from some surprising members. Hardly any name-calling, either. I'm impressed! Let's stay on topic though.

Being neither a parent nor a teacher, I'm not sure how much I can add to this debate. My experience with bullying has been pretty minimal. There was a little bit of teasing in primary school, but mostly I think I was the kid Two_phat was talking about - the one who's just invisible to bullies.

There was a brief period in high school where one guy liked to test his steel-capped boots on my shins. He stopped after I learnt a bit of aikido and pinned him in an arm-lock. (Funnily enough, this guy was in my wider circle of "friends" at the time, so it just shows bullies aren't restricted to your enemies.) That's the closest I got to being bullied, and in that instance, standing up for myself did the trick.

In regards to the question here - I can't remember what my parents advocated. I can't imagine them ever saying, "Well, punch him back!" so I'm pretty sure the aikido must have been my idea. My guess is that as long as your kid is independant enough to think, "Hang on, that's not right!" and not be afraid to challenge the status quo, then they won't accept being a victim (whether it's bullying, or any other situation in life). If that means telling a teacher and being called a nark, or learning aikido, then they've got the skills to weigh up each of these options. I don't know whether the parents need to explicitly suggest retaliation. It seems to me like that might feed the "But he started it" excuse - and kids don't need any encouragement for that!

[Lurker]

Hahaha really? You get that from my posts? That is.....interesting?!

Yep quite clearly you see your kid as the victim and the hero who is just defending himself...you don't see the fact that the force used isn't self defence, its retaliation, and using a greater severity of violence than that used in the first place. Now what happens when we translate that behaviour a few years down the track as a teenager, when it's no longer just pushing and punching but knives, stomping people on the ground and all that become common place.

Geez maybe when he's older someone he might even just be driving innocent along Kohimarma Road when he's cut off by another driver.......

Jimjim and Tom have it pretty much spot with all the 'self defence' vigilante hero's that always crop up in these arguments.

[severe]

When people (of all ages) are able to defend themselves, and will as soon as trouble starts, they have a different demeanor to those who walk with their heads down.

Even the intent to protect yourself can be seen by others.

not the armpit rash, arms flaired out mobsters. The everyday people.

When you have that demeanor you almost never get targeted. You only get that way through experience of standing up for yourself.

The only trouble with kids doing this is that it does look like retaliation, because their reactions aren't as fast as adults. They lack the experience to identify the rituals of aggressions and fighting. Adults can act before the bully can. Is this retaliation? No, it is pre-emptive threat elimination.

But, stunt them by preaching non violence as the only way, only works if everyone they come across believes in it too.

We have laws to stop crime, but criminals don't care.

Allow your kids to make these decisions, and without removing teh social morality from it. Suport their decisions to fight back. offer suggestions on how to improve the responses (maybe walking away was the better option) but I won't be making my children sheep.

My kids are not violent. But they don't take it, either.

I was bullied at highschool, and outside of school. My parents said walk away, and this was their mantra. they had no idea how screwed up that made me. Only through defending myself was I able to take control of these people, and as my demeanor changed, people left me alone.

There is a fine line between violence for satisfaction, and threat elimination for perceived survival.

[nemesis]

Hahaha really? You get that from my posts? That is.....interesting?!

Yep quite clearly you see your kid as the victim and the hero who is just defending himself...you don't see the fact that the force used isn't self defence, its retaliation, and using a greater severity of violence than that used in the first place. Now what happens when we translate that behaviour a few years down the track as a teenager, when it's no longer just pushing and punching but knives, stomping people on the ground and all that become common place.

Geez maybe when he's older someone he might even just be driving innocent along Kohimarma Road when he's cut off by another driver.......

Jimjim and Tom have it pretty much spot with all the 'self defence' vigilante

hero's that always crop up in these arguments.

How the hell do you get that from my post? Infact dont bother. I dont really care. You're obviously a little special. Go jump to your ill informed conclusions with someone else.

[Daz69]

if we spent less time being pc and bowing down to others and their pussified beliefs , we would be better off.

I have two teenage boys both have been f'd with at school 1 year of muay thai for the 17 year old and a year of weights for the 14 year old , who by the way is in the first 15 and deadlifts 100kgs for reps and pow the h,mo bullies disperse.

once we leave the playground , life still reflects it, theres just no teachers, the same douche bag bullies still exist , I say f it if someone lays hands on you in your personal space whatever the age...guillotine choke them , or elbow strike their orbitol , or straight k.o them end of story...good on all your sons or daughters for sticking up for themselves.

elbow strike their head? straight KO them? lol.... thats not really worth the risk of years in prison for manslaughter when it all goes terribly wrong.... or is it?

They can use their fighting skills when they are in prison. Read S62Ca61, Criminally responsible for any excess force used.

You a Cop..?

[kalahariman]

geez sounds like here is a fair bit of uncertainty and unproven hero steriotype....this is in the sence of onces believe in himself and peace with who you are and your abilities (mostly towards yourself)..... once you know your abbility and know the outcome you comes to respect not just yourself but also others around you...it is 10 out of 10 times not worth the bother.....but age does not neccasary mean you will ever grow up...some mature and become humble some will always feel unworthy and try to proof to themselfs who they are.....the old wanna be......

[HarryB]

geez sounds like here is a fair bit of uncertainty and unproven hero steriotype....this is in the sence of onces believe in himself and peace with who you are and your abilities (mostly towards yourself)..... once you know your abbility and know the outcome you comes to respect not just yourself but also others around you...it is 10 out of 10 times not worth the bother.....but age does not neccasary mean you will ever grow up...some mature and become humble some will always feel unworthy and try to proof to themselfs who they are.....the old wanna be......

Yeah but kids don't really get that... teach them to respect themselves and the people around them. Good lessons no matter what age you are.

[kalahariman]

Ok, last few weeks my stepson of 4 has been fighting at his daycare and on each incident we have had to fill in a incident report.

The first incident happened 2 weeks back when another kid for no reason threw a toy train at his face, he then stood up and punched the other kid squarely in the face(Quote:daycare teacher) which ended up in screaming and crying.

Second Incident involved him being pushed off a box he was standing on into some wooden building blocks on the ground (1 meter high) by a older bigger boy, to which he responded by picking up a plank of wood and hitting the other boy with it.(Witnessed by Daycare Teacher)

Third Incident was over the computer, day care Teacher says the other boy pushed him, so he hit him blah blah blah....anyway..he came home with scratches just below his eye and a chunk of skin half the size of a 10 cent coin scratched off the side of his face.

In every cirucmstance he only retaliated when infringed upon...and I have spoken to his daycare teachers to have them write up what proposals and plans they have in place to prevent this in the future besides just filling out stupid incident reports and letting things blow over(Still waiitng on that one).

My partner was at daycare the other day and apparantly the daycare teachers hit her up about her advocating him standing up for himself and hitting back and if I advocated it as well..

I havent had a chance to head back down to daycare yet to give them my view, but if our boy is picked on and the dumbarse daycare teachers cant prevent it before it starts then I pity the fool!

Thoughts anyone..anyone relate..similar experience..advice??

i had experience with this sort of thing when i was very young, to cut a long story short the only way forward is to stand up for yourself, if you cant then you have to learn pretty fast, it only takes one or two examples to the rest then they will leave you alone, your deminior will change and confidence is born and as (severe) have mentioned your deminior changes and people sence this.....only problem now is.. not to turn into the bully...90% do and then you have a bigger problem on your hands.

[Chemo]

When people (of all ages) are able to defend themselves, and will as soon as trouble starts, they have a different demeanor to those who walk with their heads down.

Even the intent to protect yourself can be seen by others.

not the armpit rash, arms flaired out mobsters. The everyday people.

When you have that demeanor you almost never get targeted. You only get that way through experience of standing up for yourself.

The only trouble with kids doing this is that it does look like retaliation, because their reactions aren't as fast as adults. They lack the experience to identify the rituals of aggressions and fighting. Adults can act before the bully can. Is this retaliation? No, it is pre-emptive threat elimination.

But, stunt them by preaching non violence as the only way, only works if everyone they come across believes in it too.

We have laws to stop crime, but criminals don't care.

Allow your kids to make these decisions, and without removing teh social morality from it. Suport their decisions to fight back. offer suggestions on how to improve the responses (maybe walking away was the better option) but I won't be making my children sheep.

My kids are not violent. But they don't take it, either.

I was bullied at highschool, and outside of school. My parents said walk away, and this was their mantra. they had no idea how screwed up that made me. Only through defending myself was I able to take control of these people, and as my demeanor changed, people left me alone.

There is a fine line between violence for satisfaction, and threat elimination for perceived survival.

+1

Repped

[jimjim83]

elbow strike their head? straight KO them? lol.... thats not really worth the risk of years in prison for manslaughter when it all goes terribly wrong.... or is it?

They can use their fighting skills when they are in prison. Read S62Ca61, Criminally responsible for any excess force used.

You a Cop..?

Anybody can get a copy of the crimes act and read up. Maybe Im a bush Lawyer!! or done time for something similar. :pfft: