About to start 2nd cycle, advices

[comingdayandnight]

brah where the f*ck are the carbs? chopchop.com? lol

They are non existent. Just have them in the morning to get me started and before training. Do you reckon I should throw them in there with the chop chop?

[Daz69]

OK, I will pitch a curve ball....

Running 500mg/week for that long may start losing effectiveness by week 8. To avoid this try slightly increasing the dose between weeks 8-20 by 25mg/week.

To try growing while losing body fat is the most difficult equation. use gear that has very low aromatisation like Tren, Eq, Deca, Stans Anavar etc or fast acting test like Propionate or Suspension.

A good combo is Tren/EQ & Stanz (or Anavar) all of these are reported to aid in fat loss while being capable of producing lean quality gains with maximum post cycle mass retention. Clenbuterol can be helpful also.

Keep the nutrition absolutely perfect at all times if attempting to lean and grow. The two do not mix well.!

I'd be interested to know your reasoning, if you could explain pls...

It is all about receptor sensitivity and homeostasis.

After 8 weeks the receptors are no longer as responsive to the same single dose and the body has had plenty of time to launch counter-measures. You need to continue to trick the body to stay in the zone for maximum growth.

Every long cycle I have ever done becomes stale by week 8 unless you mix things up and keep in the zone.

That's what I thought, everything is trying to play catch-up......

I'm currently at week 11 on Test E 500mg/Equi' 400mg/week....

And I'm feeling shite to say I'm 11 weeks in, strength & weight leveled out weeks ago......

Thought I might have over done it, but I can see where you are coming from.............. I've asked this question before about upping my dose, because of your reasoning, but been advised to switch compounds......

I think the option of an extra 25mg/week makes sense & is worth trying........

[rovr4on]

Cheers for all the advice guys its greatly appreciated.

Would it be all good if after week 8 if I started adding x1ml of sust twice a week on top of the test E?

I should have added my diet as well, I don't think i'm eating enough to be honest...

7:00am - 5 egg whites, bowl of oats, banana

10:00am - 185g can of chop chop

12:00pm - 185g can of chop chop

2:00pm - 185g can of chop chop

4:00pm - 185g can of chop chop, small bowl of oats, banana

5:30pm - Train

6:45pm - Protein shake mixed in water, scoop of creatine

7:30pm - Dinner consisting of steak or fish, boiled potatoe, mixed vege

10:00pm - Protein shake mixed in water

Appreciate your comments brahs

lol are you serious? you will be going to AE bro, mercury poisioning aint pretty! eat more carbs pre and post workout with smaller portion of boiled potato at night and good fats(almonds, avocados and peanut butter etc)..and more fruit n vege throughout day..

[Sifo-Dyas]

Cheers for all the advice guys its greatly appreciated.

Would it be all good if after week 8 if I started adding x1ml of sust twice a week on top of the test E?

I should have added my diet as well, I don't think i'm eating enough to be honest...

7:00am - 5 egg whites, bowl of oats, banana

10:00am - 185g can of chop chop

12:00pm - 185g can of chop chop

2:00pm - 185g can of chop chop

4:00pm - 185g can of chop chop, small bowl of oats, banana

5:30pm - Train

6:45pm - Protein shake mixed in water, scoop of creatine

7:30pm - Dinner consisting of steak or fish, boiled potatoe, mixed vege

10:00pm - Protein shake mixed in water

Appreciate your comments brahs

Personally mate...I love your diet. For lean gains it is near to perfect as you can get. If you intend to have longevity with that intake I would add some more fresh fruit or vege and some nuts for essential fats.

But basically I couldn't fault that if you want to try losing body fat will attempting to grow.

I have used a diet very similar to this in the 6 months between two competitions and although I could not see any real gains I competed 2kg heavier and far more shredded 6 months later.

[Sifo-Dyas]

I'd be interested to know your reasoning, if you could explain pls...

It is all about receptor sensitivity and homeostasis.

After 8 weeks the receptors are no longer as responsive to the same single dose and the body has had plenty of time to launch counter-measures. You need to continue to trick the body to stay in the zone for maximum growth.

Every long cycle I have ever done becomes stale by week 8 unless you mix things up and keep in the zone.

hmm interesting... You're full of posts that get me thinking SD!

so you just increase by 25mg at 8 weeks? for the rest of the cycle or do you continue to increasE?

what's your take on this MNZ?

It is very rare that I will disagree with MNZ his knowledge comes from experience as does mine. He choses a different path but not a wrong path & that allows for people to see a multitude of possibilities.

as for proviron...That stuff rocks! but it aint got anything on MASTERON!!! :pfft:

[comingdayandnight]

Cheers for all the advice guys its greatly appreciated.

Would it be all good if after week 8 if I started adding x1ml of sust twice a week on top of the test E?

I should have added my diet as well, I don't think i'm eating enough to be honest...

7:00am - 5 egg whites, bowl of oats, banana

10:00am - 185g can of chop chop

12:00pm - 185g can of chop chop

2:00pm - 185g can of chop chop

4:00pm - 185g can of chop chop, small bowl of oats, banana

5:30pm - Train

6:45pm - Protein shake mixed in water, scoop of creatine

7:30pm - Dinner consisting of steak or fish, boiled potatoe, mixed vege

10:00pm - Protein shake mixed in water

Appreciate your comments brahs

Personally mate...I love your diet. For lean gains it is near to perfect as you can get. If you intend to have longevity with that intake I would add some more fresh fruit or vege and some nuts for essential fats.

But basically I couldn't fault that if you want to try losing body fat will attempting to grow.

I have used a diet very similar to this in the 6 months between two competitions and although I could not see any real gains I competed 2kg heavier and far more shredded 6 months later.

Cheers for that Sifo. I'll continue on the path that i'm walking then and just add some more fresh fruit and vege with some almonds thrown in for the good fats. Chur brah!

[rovr4on]

Cheers for all the advice guys its greatly appreciated.

Would it be all good if after week 8 if I started adding x1ml of sust twice a week on top of the test E?

I should have added my diet as well, I don't think i'm eating enough to be honest...

7:00am - 5 egg whites, bowl of oats, banana

10:00am - 185g can of chop chop

12:00pm - 185g can of chop chop

2:00pm - 185g can of chop chop

4:00pm - 185g can of chop chop, small bowl of oats, banana

5:30pm - Train

6:45pm - Protein shake mixed in water, scoop of creatine

7:30pm - Dinner consisting of steak or fish, boiled potatoe, mixed vege

10:00pm - Protein shake mixed in water

Appreciate your comments brahs

Personally mate...I love your diet. For lean gains it is near to perfect as you can get. If you intend to have longevity with that intake I would add some more fresh fruit or vege and some nuts for essential fats.

But basically I couldn't fault that if you want to try losing body fat will attempting to grow.

I have used a diet very similar to this in the 6 months between two competitions and although I could not see any real gains I competed 2kg heavier and far more shredded 6 months later.

But sifo, this is his second cycle, unlike you, his 110kg is mostly fat, where yours is muscle, so he could potentially gain 5kgs lean muscle where you would aim for 1-2 kgs? so therefore he would need more carbs pre and post workout to get that 5 kgs of muscle rather than only putting on 2kg

I'm sure he could lose alot of fat and gain lean muscle eating more complex carbs pre workout with cardio a few times a week? or move that boiled potato to earlier in day?

I'm not disagreeing with you, as I know that your knowledge and experience is very extensive but his body composition is much different. I would have thought he would want to get maximum muscle gain for the risks he is taking?

Also your not really supposed to eat more than 2-3 cans of canned meat per week due to cancer risks?

Just curious

[tomsammce]

Cheers for all the advice guys its greatly appreciated.

Would it be all good if after week 8 if I started adding x1ml of sust twice a week on top of the test E?

I should have added my diet as well, I don't think i'm eating enough to be honest...

7:00am - 5 egg whites, bowl of oats, banana

10:00am - 185g can of chop chop

12:00pm - 185g can of chop chop

2:00pm - 185g can of chop chop

4:00pm - 185g can of chop chop, small bowl of oats, banana

5:30pm - Train

6:45pm - Protein shake mixed in water, scoop of creatine

7:30pm - Dinner consisting of steak or fish, boiled potatoe, mixed vege

10:00pm - Protein shake mixed in water

Appreciate your comments brahs

Personally mate...I love your diet. For lean gains it is near to perfect as you can get. If you intend to have longevity with that intake I would add some more fresh fruit or vege and some nuts for essential fats.

But basically I couldn't fault that if you want to try losing body fat will attempting to grow.

I have used a diet very similar to this in the 6 months between two competitions and although I could not see any real gains I competed 2kg heavier and far more shredded 6 months later.

But sifo, this is his second cycle, unlike you, his 110kg is mostly fat, where yours is muscle, so he could potentially gain 5kgs lean muscle where you would aim for 1-2 kgs? so therefore he would need more carbs pre and post workout to get that 5 kgs of muscle rather than only putting on 2kg

I'm sure he could lose alot of fat and gain lean muscle eating more complex carbs pre workout with cardio a few times a week? or move that boiled potato to earlier in day?

I'm not disagreeing with you, as I know that your knowledge and experience is very extensive but his body composition is much different. I would have thought he would want to get maximum muscle gain for the risks he is taking?

Also your not really supposed to eat more than 2-3 cans of canned meat per week due to cancer risks?

Just curious

u are actually correct disagreeing with him imo, and you make some good points. your right in raising the different body composition point and not to meantion the differences in cycles... sifo is using alot more compounds, higher dose and HGH.

now for the diet, why are you having so much chop chop chicken... wat kind of chop chop is it and do you know the sodium content of each can and have you multiplied it by 2.5 to find out your total daily salt intake... i think u will find its pretty high and not really good for you long term. also are you actually serious about sticking to this diet for the whole duration of your cycle... what a brain f*ck that will be... what are you eating currently? talk about shocking the body lol.

carbs arent bad for you and dont have to be looked at as the enemy, youd be alot better off having a small amount of carbs with each meal. this would be more beneficial to your training, recovery and growth... your not really using 'cutting compunds' as such so i dont know why you are going so extreme on the low carb thing. the diet you put up has next to know real nutritional value as far as vitamins and minerals goes and no fats apart from the odd piece of fish you may be having with dinner alternating with your steak.

7am your having protein and oats which is ok, but why are you having a banana with it when you are having zero carbs for 8.5 hours after finishing that meal... its only gonna give you an unessercery spike. then you dont feed your body carbs till 4pm. if u are gonna do it this way id brign the potatoe fwd to have with your protein shake and creatine post workout and think u should look at having some carbs throughout the day.

you should have a look at carb cycling, where you have high, med, low and zero carb days, carbs are substituted with fats some of the time and ull have a bigger variety of food and will work alot better than what youv proposed

[Sifo-Dyas]

This is an open forum and the opinions and points raised contradicting my post are very valid and worth much consideration.

True as you have seen by my own posted diet, I opt for a greater variety of wholefood protein sources.

Composition is a good point but the base of the question is trying to grow in a calorie deficit or trying to lose bodyfat while gaining muscle,

This is the most difficult equation and when I stated I did this for 6 months between comps (which actually ended up with me being on a form of keto diet for 2.5 years) I was on very similar doses and componds as comingdayandnight. The results are in the comp pics on my mass phase thread.

The math is basic. Substituting protein for carbs calorie for calorie will cause fat loss. It is very difficult for the human body to learn how to use protein for energy (keytones) and it takes 30% more energy for your body to process protein. This energy is is is found by accessing fat stores in the body. The heat generated after eating protein is pure Thermogenesis.

I did not go so far as to investigate the reason comingdayandnight uses so much chop chop chicken? Could be he has plenty of money and not much time. Maybe he gets it cheap? I didn't want to get too picky.

If you look at his diet for exactly what it is without splitting hairs it is the cleanest diet I have seen from someone doing just their second cycle.

I challenge anyone that disagrees with this diet to honestly post their own diet before making judgements :^o

[maassive]

some good discussion in here boys, this is a really informative thread on both diet and longer cycling! loving it.

[rovr4on]

This is an open forum and the opinions and points raised contradicting my post are very valid and worth much consideration.

True as you have seen by my own posted diet, I opt for a greater variety of wholefood protein sources.

Composition is a good point but the base of the question is trying to grow in a calorie deficit or trying to lose bodyfat while gaining muscle,

This is the most difficult equation and when I stated I did this for 6 months between comps (which actually ended up with me being on a form of keto diet for 2.5 years) I was on very similar doses and componds as comingdayandnight. The results are in the comp pics on my mass phase thread.

The math is basic. Substituting protein for carbs calorie for calorie will cause fat loss. It is very difficult for the human body to learn how to use protein for energy (keytones) and it takes 30% more energy for your body to process protein. This energy is is is found by accessing fat stores in the body. The heat generated after eating protein is pure Thermogenesis.

I did not go so far as to investigate the reason comingdayandnight uses so much chop chop chicken? Could be he has plenty of money and not much time. Maybe he gets it cheap? I didn't want to get too picky.

If you look at his diet for exactly what it is without splitting hairs it is the cleanest diet I have seen from someone doing just their second cycle.

I challenge anyone that disagrees with this diet to honestly post their own diet before making judgements :^o

But he is not on a keto diet unlike you were, it is his second cycle, and in the first few cycles i understood that this is where you gain the most muscle, so why would it be worth him doing low carbs gaining minimal muscle compared to having carbs and gaining max muscle? This could be a good diet if it was his 5th cycle..

Further to low carb keto diets, from what i understand is that these are for muscle maintainence and fat loss, I think his priority would be to gain muscle then lose fat, which can be done easily small amounts of low GI carbs throughout the day.

But first I think it would be good to gauge what his metabolism is like, did you get fat from eating lots of food? or have you been eating an average amount of food and gained alot of fat? The diet above should only really be recommended if he has slow metabolism.

Also lack of carbs would mean low energy for workouts, and general decrease in mood.

Carbs eaten correctly can also increase the bodys ability to metabolise fat.

7:00am - 5 egg whites, bowl of oats, protein shake

10:00am - 185g can of chop chop, banana, 2 fish oil tabs

12:00pm - 185g can of chop chop, kiwifruit (or fruit of choice)

2:00pm - 185g can of chop chop, orange, 2 fish oil tabs

4:00pm - 185g can of chop chop, small bowl of oats, apple

5:30pm - Train

6:45pm - Protein shake mixed in water, scoop of creatine

7:30pm - Dinner consisting of steak or fish, boiled potatoe (small portion), 2 fish oil tabs, mixed vege

10:00pm - Protein shake mixed in water

maybe add some mono fats so 1/4 of an advocado in there somewhere..

[maassive]

Would it be all good if after week 8 if I started adding x1ml of sust twice a week on top of the test E?

why sust bro?

[Pseudonym]

Off-topic posts have been moved to the Playground. This is a good thread - let's keep it that way, please.

[rovr4on]

to be honest dude, instead of doing cycle with intention to lose weight, which will mean you wont gain maximum muscle during, you should diet for 3-6 months then do cycle. your first few cycles are where you can take advantage of maximum muscle gain and if you have low carb diet that means you wont be able to take advantage of virgin cycles...

[maassive]

comingday and night has done about 3 prohormone cycles (arnie?) and 1 test cycle.

Does this effect the 'virgin' mass gain effect?

Also, he's been lifting for at least a decade... so, while I do understand your point rov, I'm not sure it fully applies... (as always, open to rebuttal on this though)

[comingdayandnight]

Cheers brothers! Good advices to help me reach dizzying heights of success with the tin!

Will start adding wholegrain breads, brown rice and fruit in with my cans of chop chop chicken!

Reason why I eat it is due to the convinience factor. When I can, I buy those x2 chickens for $20 at the supermarkets and eat one of those per day.

And yeah, I know it sounds boring eating that same shit day in day out, but I just look at food as fuel for the machine and not think about the taste or lack of taste in what i'm eating.

[comingdayandnight]

Would it be all good if after week 8 if I started adding x1ml of sust twice a week on top of the test E?

why sust bro?

More of a cheap cost factor for me bro. Run a 20ml vial on top of the TE to take me to the end of week 16-20.

[Sifo-Dyas]

But he is not on a keto diet unlike you were, it is his second cycle, and in the first few cycles i understood that this is where you gain the most muscle, so why would it be worth him doing low carbs gaining minimal muscle compared to having carbs and gaining max muscle? This could be a good diet if it was his 5th cycle..

Further to low carb keto diets, from what i understand is that these are for muscle maintainence and fat loss, I think his priority would be to gain muscle then lose fat, which can be done easily small amounts of low GI carbs throughout the day.

But first I think it would be good to gauge what his metabolism is like, did you get fat from eating lots of food? or have you been eating an average amount of food and gained alot of fat? The diet above should only really be recommended if he has slow metabolism.

Also lack of carbs would mean low energy for workouts, and general decrease in mood.

Carbs eaten correctly can also increase the bodys ability to metabolise fat.

7:00am - 5 egg whites, bowl of oats, protein shake

10:00am - 185g can of chop chop, banana, 2 fish oil tabs

12:00pm - 185g can of chop chop, kiwifruit (or fruit of choice)

2:00pm - 185g can of chop chop, orange, 2 fish oil tabs

4:00pm - 185g can of chop chop, small bowl of oats, apple

5:30pm - Train

6:45pm - Protein shake mixed in water, scoop of creatine

7:30pm - Dinner consisting of steak or fish, boiled potatoe (small portion), 2 fish oil tabs, mixed vege

10:00pm - Protein shake mixed in water

maybe add some mono fats so 1/4 of an advocado in there somewhere..

Everything you are sayiing is correct...but that is not what he asked, he asked

"I'm looking at the cycle as being a lean gainer whilst loosing body fat."

And for that the aproach is sound

[rovr4on]

You are quite right, got a bit carried away, but these are things he should at least consider doing..

[Sifo-Dyas]

If he follows your advice and diet strategy he will definitly achieve more gains.

[Roidzilla]

into my 2nd week of dbol- have upped to 40mg ED as wasnt feeling much strength or recovery in the 2nd week. 40 though has given me rediculous lower back pump and some strength.

does splitting the dose help aleviate back pump? ive been splitting the dose on rest days, and taking the wholelot 2hours before training the rest of the time..

[maassive]

into my 2nd week of dbol- have upped to 40mg ED as wasnt feeling much strength or recovery in the 2nd week. 40 though has given me rediculous lower back pump and some strength.

does splitting the dose help aleviate back pump? ive been splitting the dose on rest days, and taking the wholelot 2hours before training the rest of the time..

there are two or three whole threads devoted to this - have a look bro.

[HarryB]

DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!! lol