2nd Cycle - Cutting – Test Prop/Eq – Advice or suggestions

[tikalosh]

Background Info

Age: 23

Height: 1.88m

Weight 107kg

BF: 18%

Previous Experience: Proper training and dieting since 17yo. Went from 75kg to a max of 101kg naturally. Did my first cycle at 22: Did Test E 400-500mg/week, 12 week cycle. Went from 95kg at 16%BF to 110kg at 18-19%BF. Achieved my goal of getting to 110kg and pretty happy with how everything went. I was eating around 5500cals a day on cycle from about week 6 onwards, good clean diet, lots of good carbs, lean protein and good fats, 7-8 meals per day. PCT of 20mg Nolva ED 2 weeks after last injection for 3 weeks. Did get lots of bloating and sore nips at times. Did gain heaps of strength, unfortunately can’t do deads, squats or heavy bent over rows anymore cos of a slipped disc in my back. My family has a bad MPB problem (brother already balding on top at 25yo) so some hair started to go at the front lol, never had much of a use for hair anyway.

Mistakes I think I made:

Only did 1 injection per week instead of 2.

Started at too high BF

Shoulda had some AI on hand to control estrogen levels.

Don’t think PCT was the best as I was really unmotivated to train for a few weeks one month after last injection.

Since the cycle have been maintaining, dropping calories slowly and for the last 2 months have been slowly cutting with cal restriction and cardio (4 sessions weekly, combination of interval training and low intensity). Currently at 107kg with 18%BF, have been able to retain most of the strength. Atm eating around 2500-3000cals!! a day with a pretty physical job.

My goal with the next cycle: Maintain muscle while dropping to 10%BF. Very clean diet with little carbs, higher protein and good fats (aiming for 2500-3000cals and will decrease depending on weight). Cardio around 6 days a week in the morning and 4-5 afternoon weight sessions per week.

Proposed Cycle: 12 weeks

Test Prop 100mg EOD ONLY

Or with Eq 400mg/week

Will also take Arimidex .25-0.5mg EOD to control aromasin/bloating.

As this is quite a general cutting cycle to a pretty standard BF % I wanna keep it pretty simple, thus only considering the single compound, or stacking with Eq (dunno if i’ll see much of an effect in 12 weeks). Also wanna know if NPP would be any good as I have had some problems with joints. Not keen on winny.

PCT will be same as last cycle, with some HCG also and Trib, ZMA and other OTC this time.

[WANABJAKD]

Background Info

Age: 23

Height: 1.88m

Weight 107kg

BF: 18%

Previous Experience: Proper training and dieting since 17yo. Went from 75kg to a max of 101kg naturally. Did my first cycle at 22: Did Test E 400-500mg/week, 12 week cycle. Went from 95kg at 16%BF to 110kg at 18-19%BF. Achieved my goal of getting to 110kg and pretty happy with how everything went. I was eating around 5500cals a day on cycle from about week 6 onwards, good clean diet, lots of good carbs, lean protein and good fats, 7-8 meals per day. PCT of 20mg Nolva ED 2 weeks after last injection for 3 weeks. Did get lots of bloating and sore nips at times. Did gain heaps of strength, unfortunately can’t do deads, squats or heavy bent over rows anymore cos of a slipped disc in my back. My family has a bad MPB problem (brother already balding on top at 25yo) so some hair started to go at the front lol, never had much of a use for hair anyway.

Mistakes I think I made:

Only did 1 injection per week instead of 2.

Started at too high BF

Shoulda had some AI on hand to control estrogen levels.

Don’t think PCT was the best as I was really unmotivated to train for a few weeks one month after last injection.

Since the cycle have been maintaining, dropping calories slowly and for the last 2 months have been slowly cutting with cal restriction and cardio (4 sessions weekly, combination of interval training and low intensity). Currently at 107kg with 18%BF, have been able to retain most of the strength. Atm eating around 2500-3000cals!! a day with a pretty physical job.

My goal with the next cycle: Maintain muscle while dropping to 10%BF. Very clean diet with little carbs, higher protein and good fats (aiming for 2500-3000cals and will decrease depending on weight). Cardio around 6 days a week in the morning and 4-5 afternoon weight sessions per week.

Proposed Cycle: 12 weeks

Test Prop 100mg EOD ONLY

Or with Eq 400mg/week

Will also take Arimidex .25-0.5mg EOD to control aromasin/bloating.

As this is quite a general cutting cycle to a pretty standard BF % I wanna keep it pretty simple, thus only considering the single compound, or stacking with Eq (dunno if i’ll see much of an effect in 12 weeks). Also wanna know if NPP would be any good as I have had some problems with joints. Not keen on winny.

PCT will be same as last cycle, with some HCG also and Trib, ZMA and other OTC this time.

good introduction.

your proposed cycle looks good and as you suspected, switching it up eq with nnp would be a far superior cycle. it would be more convenient as far as coupling the injects.

[WANABJAKD]

if you have no care for your hair i would strongly recommend you run a prop mast cycle...i have a bro who got some amazing dry gains off this cycle.

[musclenz]

Good post tikalosh. Agree with WANNAB but would run the EQ with the Prop for leaner gains. You could add in a small amount NNP but nandrolone will hold bit water weight. You could add in the masteron in for the last few weeks to ramp it up a bit. But getting a few too many compounds for a second cycle maybe.

[clash]

Some good advice here. Maybe consider running Prop/deca (or NPP) and throw in a bit of clenbuterol towards the end to really get the thermogenisis going. Aside from raising the metabolic rate like all AAS, nandrolones will aid with joint problems as well as having the ability to respectably inhibit fat synthesis and reduce triglyceride and cholesterol levels. The addition of Clenbuterol in the last 4 weeks will really push home the final phase of this stack and the anti-catabolic and stimulating effects will be welcome towards the end of long lean phase.

[musclenz]

Some good advice here. Maybe consider running Prop/deca (or NPP) and throw in a bit of clenbuterol towards the end to really get the thermogenisis going. Aside from raising the metabolic rate like all AAS, nandrolones will aid with joint problems as well as having the ability to respectably inhibit fat synthesis and reduce triglyceride and cholesterol levels. The addition of Clenbuterol in the last 4 weeks will really push home the final phase of this stack and the anti-catabolic and stimulating effects will be welcome towards the end of long lean phase.

So nicely put. :pfft:

[Marcus]

If you just want to maintain and drop bf, I'd only run 100-150mg of Test Prop eod. Get some Clen and T3 for added help if you want. Should be plenty for your 2nd cycle.

[tikalosh]

Thanks for the feedback.

Not too keen to try clen just yet for a few reasons; firstly I'll consider it when I'm aiming for lower single digit BF figures.

The other reason being that due to my work side effects like tremor and to a lesser extent sweating isn't very good (silly I know), dunno to what extent these side effects are found normally though.

[clash]

The side effects of clen generally only last 3-5 days and the actual thermogenic stimulating effects continue for 2-4 weeks after the side effects subside. Another good thermogenic stimulant is "tuurbos". They do not have the same negative side effects as clen and are contain many natural stimulants with one of the active ingredients being Geranium extract.

[samoan_muscle]

if you have no care for your hair i would strongly recommend you run a prop mast cycle...i have a bro who got some amazing dry gains off this cycle.

Masteron is a very mild compound.

Strength/lean muscle gains are pretty mild.

IMO only worth using when in low bodyfat 8% or less to harden physique.

[clash]

if you have no care for your hair i would strongly recommend you run a prop mast cycle...i have a bro who got some amazing dry gains off this cycle.

Masteron is a very mild compound.

Strength/lean muscle gains are pretty mild.

IMO only worth using when in low bodyfat 8% or less to harden physique.

On its own Materon does appear to be mild and on paper it appears to have very similar anabolic and androgenic ratings as Deca (androgenic 25-40 Anabolic 62-130). When stacked with Testosterone, I personally have noted incredible strength and training intensity increases over testosterone alone. This may be due to Masterons strong receptor binding abilities which are 3-5 times greater than testosterone. Meaning it will remain locked in the receptor and activate a response for much longer. Masteron also has great anti-estrogen abilities via its ability to compete for the aromatase receptor. So in my opinion Masteron would be one of the most useful and underated AAs available to bodybuilders. Not only is it a good AAs in its own right it is also an aromatase inhibitor and will keep estrogen levels in the perfect zone to achieve maximum growth.

[musclenz]

if you have no care for your hair i would strongly recommend you run a prop mast cycle...i have a bro who got some amazing dry gains off this cycle.

Masteron is a very mild compound.

Strength/lean muscle gains are pretty mild.

IMO only worth using when in low bodyfat 8% or less to harden physique.

Its effective at 700mg PW in same league as Primo or even Tren. What dose

did you use Big Boy?

[WANABJAKD]

if you have no care for your hair i would strongly recommend you run a prop mast cycle...i have a bro who got some amazing dry gains off this cycle.

Masteron is a very mild compound.

Strength/lean muscle gains are pretty mild.

IMO only worth using when in low bodyfat 8% or less to harden physique.

On its own Materon does appear to be mild and on paper it appears to have very similar anabolic and androgenic ratings as Deca (androgenic 25-40 Anabolic 62-130). When stacked with Testosterone, I personally have noted incredible strength and training intensity increases over testosterone alone. This may be due to Masterons strong receptor binding abilities which are 3-5 times greater than testosterone. Meaning it will remain locked in the receptor and activate a response for much longer. Masteron also has great anti-estrogen abilities via its ability to compete for the aromatase receptor. So in my opinion Masteron would be one of the most useful and underated AAs available to bodybuilders. Not only is it a good AAs in its own right it is also an aromatase inhibitor and will keep estrogen levels in the perfect zone to achieve maximum growth.

from what ive read any test reduced via the 5a-R to DHT is about x5 more stronger than test. its hard to really say if all DHT derivatives exhibit the same effect as for example oxandrolone(anavar) and methenolone(primobolan) are both DHT derivatives however they exhibit very weak androgenic activity, this is also expressed through their low androgenic score on paper as well.

masteron on the other hand has anecdotally has been proven to be a far stronger androgen than its score on paper. most users experience a huge increase in libido and lipolysis.

[Hone]

Background Info

Age: 23

Height: 1.88m

Weight 107kg

BF: 18%

Previous Experience: Proper training and dieting since 17yo. Went from 75kg to a max of 101kg naturally. Did my first cycle at 22: Did Test E 400-500mg/week, 12 week cycle. Went from 95kg at 16%BF to 110kg at 18-19%BF. Achieved my goal of getting to 110kg and pretty happy with how everything went. I was eating around 5500cals a day on cycle from about week 6 onwards, good clean diet, lots of good carbs, lean protein and good fats, 7-8 meals per day. PCT of 20mg Nolva ED 2 weeks after last injection for 3 weeks. Did get lots of bloating and sore nips at times. Did gain heaps of strength, unfortunately can’t do deads, squats or heavy bent over rows anymore cos of a slipped disc in my back. My family has a bad MPB problem (brother already balding on top at 25yo) so some hair started to go at the front lol, never had much of a use for hair anyway.

Mistakes I think I made:

Only did 1 injection per week instead of 2.

Started at too high BF

Shoulda had some AI on hand to control estrogen levels.

Don’t think PCT was the best as I was really unmotivated to train for a few weeks one month after last injection.

Since the cycle have been maintaining, dropping calories slowly and for the last 2 months have been slowly cutting with cal restriction and cardio (4 sessions weekly, combination of interval training and low intensity). Currently at 107kg with 18%BF, have been able to retain most of the strength. Atm eating around 2500-3000cals!! a day with a pretty physical job.

My goal with the next cycle: Maintain muscle while dropping to 10%BF. Very clean diet with little carbs, higher protein and good fats (aiming for 2500-3000cals and will decrease depending on weight). Cardio around 6 days a week in the morning and 4-5 afternoon weight sessions per week.

Proposed Cycle: 12 weeks

Test Prop 100mg EOD ONLY

Or with Eq 400mg/week

Will also take Arimidex .25-0.5mg EOD to control aromasin/bloating.

As this is quite a general cutting cycle to a pretty standard BF % I wanna keep it pretty simple, thus only considering the single compound, or stacking with Eq (dunno if i’ll see much of an effect in 12 weeks). Also wanna know if NPP would be any good as I have had some problems with joints. Not keen on winny.

PCT will be same as last cycle, with some HCG also and Trib, ZMA and other OTC this time.

You will notice with test prop that you will not hold as much water as you did with test e. I recommend you start with .5 of adex every third day and see how you get on. You can always go to EOD if needed. I gain well on every third day with the muscles being harder and more defined without the bloating. My cycles are usually just a tad bigger than what you are doing :wink:

I have used DECA in the past as an aid for joint problems.50mg - 100mg per week should work wonders for you.

Yep your PCT was crap Hence why you crashed and lost motivation etc. Nolva and Clomid together, work very well. Can't remember the exact numbers(musclenz will ) but taking clomid raises your test levels by around 150 % which is exactly what you need coming off cycle. Clomid can affect some guys with blurred vision and messing around with their emotions, turning them into cry babies :cry: If so then HCG is a good option. I always run HCG, 500mgs a week during cycle then after cycle Clomid 50/50/50/50, use to run it at 100 for first week but over time have sussed out that 50 is fine for me for all the four weeks. Nolva 20/20/20/20. With a good PCT in place you don't have to worry about crashing, losing gains, becoming unmotivated etc. I personally don't run any over the counter supps as I think they are a waste of time but everyone has their own opinion and that's fine.

[WANABJAKD]

personally i feel compounds like clen, DNP, yomhimbe HCL etc are good if you are trying to cut but the side effects need to be weighed: risk to reward. i think T3 is a great addition to cutting but your creating a negative feedback loop, shutting down your thyroid's own production of its hormones. androgens are by far the most superior option for losing bodyfat with minimal side effects. thermo agents' and androgens' fat burning effects are clearly dose dependent (being alot more profound at higher doses), unlike T3, where only a smaller dose is required for effectiveness.

[samoan_muscle]

personally i feel compounds like clen, DNP, yomhimbe HCL etc are good if you are trying to cut but the side effects need to be weighed: risk to reward. i think T3 is a great addition to cutting but your creating a negative feedback loop, shutting down your thyroid's own production of its hormones. androgens are by far the most superior option for losing bodyfat with minimal side effects. thermo agents' and androgens' fat burning effects are clearly dose dependent (being alot more profound at higher doses), unlike T3, where only a smaller dose is required for effectiveness.

LOL

[WANABJAKD]

personally i feel compounds like clen, DNP, yomhimbe HCL etc are good if you are trying to cut but the side effects need to be weighed: risk to reward. i think T3 is a great addition to cutting but your creating a negative feedback loop, shutting down your thyroid's own production of its hormones. androgens are by far the most superior option for losing bodyfat with minimal side effects. thermo agents' and androgens' fat burning effects are clearly dose dependent (being alot more profound at higher doses), unlike T3, where only a smaller dose is required for effectiveness.

LOL

?

[clash]

The negative feedback loop from a moderate course of T3 will correct itself within 10-15days. The negative feedback loop from a moderate course of of AAS may take 10-15 weeks to correct itself! And after a moderate course of T3, when your own hormone production resumes it will often reset at above the original base line permanently. What this means is that your metabolism will be permanently increased between 10% and 25% once your natural thyroid hormones resume after a course of T3 or T4.

[samoan_muscle]

personally i feel compounds like clen, DNP, yomhimbe HCL etc are good if you are trying to cut but the side effects need to be weighed: risk to reward. i think T3 is a great addition to cutting but your creating a negative feedback loop, shutting down your thyroid's own production of its hormones. androgens are by far the most superior option for losing bodyfat with minimal side effects. thermo agents' and androgens' fat burning effects are clearly dose dependent (being alot more profound at higher doses), unlike T3, where only a smaller dose is required for effectiveness.

LOL

?

What the hell are you trying to say here?

[samoan_muscle]

if you have no care for your hair i would strongly recommend you run a prop mast cycle...i have a bro who got some amazing dry gains off this cycle.

Masteron is a very mild compound.

Strength/lean muscle gains are pretty mild.

IMO only worth using when in low bodyfat 8% or less to harden physique.

Its effective at 700mg PW in same league as Primo or even Tren. What dose

did you use Big Boy?

350mg a week is the most I've used.

Was largely unimpressed.

Same league as Tren? hahaha sure.

[samoan_muscle]

when your own hormone production resumes it will often reset at above the original base line permanently. What this means is that your metabolism will be permanently increased between 10% and 25% once your natural thyroid hormones resume after a course of T3 or T4.

Thats a big call mate...studies to prove this?

From my experience I think your own production will always bounce back no matter how long your using T3 for as the thyroid gland is fairly robust. The longer period ive used it for, the longer i took to bounce back but always have (no points for guessing that one). T4 is absolutely worthless and dont see why guys use it.

[HarryB]

damn you guys take heaps of gear lol

[musclenz]

The negative feedback loop from a moderate course of T3 will correct itself within 10-15days. The negative feedback loop from a moderate course of of AAS may take 10-15 weeks to correct itself! And after a moderate course of T3, when your own hormone production resumes it will often reset at above the original base line permanently. What this means is that your metabolism will be permanently increased between 10% and 25% once your natural thyroid hormones resume after a course of T3 or T4.

Agree with SM that exogenous T4 is practically useless in point of increasing metabolism. T4 converts to T3 in the liver & kidneys. Best just add in T3. Also I would like to see the clinical study to back up your statement highlighted.

[WANABJAKD]

LOL

?

What the hell are you trying to say here?

well, clen for example can cause ventricle and cardiac enlargement as well as necrosis (cell-death).

T3 is good if your trying to prevent homeostasis once you reach a very low bf% to allow yourself to keep burning fat. though your going to shut down.

AAS such as testosterones for example, bind to the androgen receptors of fat cells to induce lipolysis with minimal side effects

Androgenic hormones having the ability to bind so tightly to the androgen receptor including those present in all fat-cells induce lipolysis. this is why we exhibit a huge increase in sweating from two examples running 500mg and 1000mg of testosterone. there are too many fat cells in your body and tell me you have seen a fat bodybuilder running 2gs, bro?

i seriously doubt there is any validity in what clash suggested. there is no way to permanently increase your bodys own natural production of T4/T3. This is obviously regulated through feedback via the hypothalamus.

if you are on a restricted diet trying to cut down on T3/T4 one can assume as soon as you end your cycle and your supplementation of T3/T4, being on a low calorie diet, your body is going to say "f*ck you, where did all the food go bitch?" then it will decrease the production of these hormones to achieve homeostasis.

[WANABJAKD]

when your own hormone production resumes it will often reset at above the original base line permanently. What this means is that your metabolism will be permanently increased between 10% and 25% once your natural thyroid hormones resume after a course of T3 or T4.

Thats a big call mate...studies to prove this?

From my experience I think your own production will always bounce back no matter how long your using T3 for as the thyroid gland is fairly robust. The longer period ive used it for, the longer i took to bounce back but always have (no points for guessing that one). T4 is absolutely worthless and dont see why guys use it.

from experience what do you personally experience during shutdown? any weight gain, increased/decreased appetite? is it protocol to typically end the T3 3-4 weeks prior to your cycle's conclusion?