ZMA Question

[NewZealand]

Hey all, i just purchased some Optimum ZMA capsules as i saw all the reviews and comments stating how people were having excellent sleep and vivid dreams, unfortunately i have been having neither, and actually im fairly sure i have been sleeping worse then without them.

I have tried using 1,2, and 3 capsules but i still dont feel the effects of the ZMA.

I also take the pills around 2 and a half hours after food/any form of calcium.

Can anyone help me?

Thanks.

[drizzt]

You sure it's the ZMA?

What's the rest of your diet like?

I take the same brand of ZMA, 3 tabs when I get into bed + 3hours or so after my last meal, and am out like a light not long after, my sleep is great :nod: I also stack it with Tribulus (also Optimum although that doesn't matter) which I have before workouts.

I've found that these two supps are more effective stacked together than when taken seperately.

[Android]

Hey all, i just purchased some Optimum ZMA capsules as i saw all the reviews and comments stating how people were having excellent sleep and vivid dreams, unfortunately i have been having neither, and actually im fairly sure i have been sleeping worse then without them.

I have tried using 1,2, and 3 capsules but i still dont feel the effects of the ZMA.

I also take the pills around 2 and a half hours after food/any form of calcium.

Can anyone help me?

Thanks.

Pretty common to hear that.

I can only speak from my experience here but whenever I used to take Tribulus and ZMA (I've not done ZMA only, Tribulus durining the day and ZMA at night was my thing)...one of two things can happen:

1. Nothing

2. Something

With no knowledge of why this happens I "feel" that the 2nd occurs when I was over-training or training 5 days on-2days off. The T-levels and whatever makes you healthy might be suppressed during this time and the supplement seems to do its work. As in my libido or free-test goes UP especially taking ZMA there's a noticeable difference in the morning ;-)

So from that I can only assume when taking the supps and having no effect, it means my natural levels are just fine.

After all, this stuff can't increase your levels above natural, so if you're already in tip-top shape and not lacking what they are providing you'll not feel a thing.

Could also mean you're not working out hard enough to warrant supplementation but I'm guessing you might not like hearing that :-) ignore that comment entirely if you're not a body builder mate.

[NewZealand]

thanks for the replies, i do have an intense routine as i am desperately trying to gain mass, but yea i must be doing something wrong.

Anyone else able to help me further?

[devil_911]

i have no idea why people use tribulus

[drizzt]

i have no idea why people use tribulus

Errr, can you back that up in more than one line? Curious to know why you think so, as I definitely feel it helps me

On it's own... not so much, but have noticed when stacked with ZMA libido in particular goes up. ZMA on it's own doesn't do that for me either.

[mike27]

worth buying u reckon? zma/trib combo

[drizzt]

worth buying u reckon? zma/trib combo

I reckon it depends on the person, refer to Android's post up above as he put it well

Personally, I'd say it's worth a try. I believe my test was quite low for a while (going on a year at the time) and I had no idea what was causing it - very low sex drive, gains in the gym were slow, poor sleep etc... started to take ZMA + trib together and things got better really quickly :nod:

It's a large part of my supplementation nowadays.

[devil_911]

i have no idea why people use tribulus

Errr, can you back that up in more than one line? Curious to know why you think so, as I definitely feel it helps me

On it's own... not so much, but have noticed when stacked with ZMA libido in particular goes up. ZMA on it's own doesn't do that for me either.

As far as tribuls test boosting,perfomance enhancing,musle building,body composition changing quality goes there is not a single study showing it does anything(other then some bulgarian study who were trying to make money out of it)

on the other hand their are studys showing that it did nothing,nada,nil

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10861339?dopt=AbstractPlus

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15994038?dopt=AbstractPlus

this study on Australian rugby players http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17530942?ordinalpos=14&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum had no benifit either

i have seen no blood test result showing any test boost by tribulus

but i have seen blood test result showing nada.if anything a slight drop :shock: but all in normal range definetly no boost

http://www.sizematters.com.au/supplement-reviews/27224-tribulus-shit-check-out-blood-results.html

http://www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/82324-blood-work-tribulus.html

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=166488

libido boost i do trust.couple of old fellows in the gym who have trained 7+ years and are 40+ age swear on its libido boosting effect.

that is the reason i asked why do people take tribulus(for bodybuilding or libido boost)?

ofcourse if it works for you keep using it why change a good thing plus libdo boost is not a bad effect

[drizzt]

^^Nice response :nod: I guess the only thing I was basing it "working" on, was the libido boost, will sit down and have a proper read of what you posted tomorrow. Cheers

[devil_911]

no problem mate.i was considering using tribulus myself but when i tried to find any scientific data i found nothing.i did find studies of it doing nothing

i was so shocked :shock: cause 99% of supplement companies sell it as stand alone product or in some magical mix claiming the result that everyone wants.supplement companies cant be trusted they just want our money

[Android]

Tribulus won't increase testosterone, that's a given in any country, in any language.

devil_911 you've probably read more than just the Abstract for those studies you linked us to, right...? I'm sure everyone who's taken Tribulus before would be keen to see the studies if you don't mind posting them up, the Abstracts aren't enough. Studies always report no increase in testosterone or strength levels, Tribulus doesn't and can't raise testosterone levels and won't have a noticeable difference to strength...hmm so why take it?

To be able to notice libido enhancement it's free'ng up testosterone so it's working as expected, but the small amount of test that is converted from SGHB into free-test isn't as I said earlier going to make you anabolic, massive, or notice any increase in strength. Personally if I am over-worked I do notice a difference except in the category of "making me massive" of course. But then again I could just tone down my workouts a bit instead and achieve the same effect...hmmm so why take it?

I have to say its still popular for competitive natural bodybuilders to use before a show while cutting (they're taking all sorts of supplements to preserve muscle at that time) but I've not yet met a guy who takes it religiously month after month. I do know a few figure and physqiue girls who do take it constantly, all year round. When I say it's popular I mean here in NZ at NABBA and NZFBB shows there are plenty of natural competitors that have taken it in some form or another as it's in a lot of different supplements.

Off track from the ZMA question, sorry...still keen to read more than an Abstract though devil_999 that doesn't state the obvious of not raising test or strength levels

[Grover]

i have no idea why people use tribulus

Errr, can you back that up in more than one line? Curious to know why you think so, as I definitely feel it helps me

On it's own... not so much, but have noticed when stacked with ZMA libido in particular goes up. ZMA on it's own doesn't do that for me either.

As far as tribuls test boosting,perfomance enhancing,musle building,body composition changing quality goes there is not a single study showing it does anything(other then some bulgarian study who were trying to make money out of it)

on the other hand their are studys showing that it did nothing,nada,nil

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10861339?dopt=AbstractPlus

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15994038?dopt=AbstractPlus

this study on Australian rugby players http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17530942?ordinalpos=14&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum had no benifit either

i have seen no blood test result showing any test boost by tribulus

but i have seen blood test result showing nada.if anything a slight drop :shock: but all in normal range definetly no boost

http://www.sizematters.com.au/supplement-reviews/27224-tribulus-shit-check-out-blood-results.html

http://www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/82324-blood-work-tribulus.html

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=166488

libido boost i do trust.couple of old fellows in the gym who have trained 7+ years and are 40+ age swear on its libido boosting effect.

that is the reason i asked why do people take tribulus(for bodybuilding or libido boost)?

ofcourse if it works for you keep using it why change a good thing plus libdo boost is not a bad effect

I'm 40+ and never been an issuse with libido pills or no pills!

If your missus doesn't do it for you anymore you gonna need more than a few pills!!!

[drizzt]

Lucky for some eh?

[Flex]

The effect of five weeks of Tribulus terrestris supplementation on muscle strength and body composition during preseason training in elite rugby league players.

It was concluded that T. terrestris did not produce the large gains in strength or lean muscle mass that many manufacturers claim can be experienced within 5-28 days.

Little bit flawed that study considering they only used one level of dosage - 450mg per day. Most products recommend at least twice that to be used. And there's no reference as to what potency or extract of tribulus was used. Being australian it was probably some budget shit from Musashi.

It's true that the majority of studies showing Tribulus' effect on mainly LH are done by the Bulgarian Pharmaceutical company Sopharma to push the effectiveness of their own product Tribestan. But it's more for it's positive effect on sperm motility/impotence etc in men as well as inducing ovulation in women and aiding conception. Daily dosage for this starts at 750mg and then increases to 1500mg (so 3 times what was used in the Aussie study) with total subjects of 212 which again is a little more than the 22 "roided up" (did I say that?) Elite Aussie league players.

http://www.tribestan.com/tribestan-clin ... dies.phtml

Tribulus doesn't work for everyone as it is basically just stimulating greater leutenizing hormone production. LH then tells your balls to produce more Test so it indirectly stimulates Test. If your LH or test levels are already high, say if you're 18years old, then you won't really notice jack. If you've been on the sauce at some point too it probably won't be as noticable as someone that's natural. Some guys can have shitloads of test in their system but then the body might not be able to use it for some reason - either receptors downgraded or too much SHBG.

I've used tribestan and at 6 tabs a day I found that it definitely works for me. Worked for helping my sister in law conceive as well. Trib can help chicks get pregnant but not much use for them if they want to gain muscle as it can't increase test in women as they don't have any balls - except those chick's that 2g's goes to when he wants to get his friday night special up on the k.

[NewZealand]

Well i will try to take the pills 3 hours after my last meal tonight then, should i take them when i get to bed? or before like it says?

also i guess if it doesn't work, it must be because im not going hard enough in the gym.

[Sims]

whats your diet like?

[musclenz]

The effect of five weeks of Tribulus terrestris supplementation on muscle strength and body composition during preseason training in elite rugby league players.

It was concluded that T. terrestris did not produce the large gains in strength or lean muscle mass that many manufacturers claim can be experienced within 5-28 days.

Little bit flawed that study considering they only used one level of dosage - 450mg per day. Most products recommend at least twice that to be used. And there's no reference as to what potency or extract of tribulus was used. Being australian it was probably some budget shit from Musashi.

It's true that the majority of studies showing Tribulus' effect on mainly LH are done by the Bulgarian Pharmaceutical company Sopharma to push the effectiveness of their own product Tribestan. But it's more for it's positive effect on sperm motility/impotence etc in men as well as inducing ovulation in women and aiding conception. Daily dosage for this starts at 750mg and then increases to 1500mg (so 3 times what was used in the Aussie study) with total subjects of 212 which again is a little more than the 22 "roided up" (did I say that?) Elite Aussie league players.

http://www.tribestan.com/tribestan-clin ... dies.phtml

Tribulus doesn't work for everyone as it is basically just stimulating greater leutenizing hormone production. LH then tells your balls to produce more Test so it indirectly stimulates Test. If your LH or test levels are already high, say if you're 18years old, then you won't really notice jack. If you've been on the sauce at some point too it probably won't be as noticable as someone that's natural. Some guys can have shitloads of test in their system but then the body might not be able to use it for some reason - either receptors downgraded or too much SHBG.

I've used tribestan and at 6 tabs a day I found that it definitely works for me. Worked for helping my sister in law conceive as well. Trib can help chicks get pregnant but not much use for them if they want to gain muscle as it can't increase test in women as they don't have any balls - except those chick's that 2g's goes to when he wants to get his friday night special up on the k.

Good points raised Flex. Trib has been around as a feel good tonic for centuries. It does seem that potency is critical to have any effect & users should be looking for those supps containing a high level of extract. The Tribestan study done in 2002 is pretty recent & whether it was jacked up to support the manufacturers product we dont know but it did show some very interesting increases in LH, FSH, Testosterone & unfortunately Estradiol . I believe it does have a place particularly in the Natty Domain as many users have reported its benefits over the years. Also in the natty supps are Tongkat Ali & Horny Goat weed which speaks for itself

As far as ZMA is concerned it is definately bebeficial as shown by many blood tests on this site & has the added benefits of Magnesium & B6. Zinc is the crucial agent in this compound because testosterone cannot metabolise in the absence of Zinc. So best to supp zinc in any PCT & any natural weight training program around 40mg ED.

[Pseudonym]

I've used tribestan and at 6 tabs a day I found that it definitely works for me. Worked for helping my sister in law conceive as well.

Two separate events, I hope, Flex?

How long does it take to digest ZMA? Taking it half an hour before bed, and not taking it with dairy (because of the calcium) has always been a bit of an issue for me, as it means working it around my pre-bedtime cottage cheese. I've been trying to take the ZMA 30-60 mins before bed, then the cottage cheese right on bedtime. I hope that works?

[musclenz]

they say before bed on an empty stomach but what BBer ever has an empty stomach :pfft:

[NewZealand]

whats your diet like?

Well i don't have a set diet at all, i just eat anything in the cupboard, i definitely don't meet my zinc, magnesium needs if that's what you need to know. I have the odd bit of meat for dinner (since its so expensive) but apart from that its basically noddles, milk (not within 3 hours of taking ZMA) Pasta etc.

[Phedder]

whats your diet like?

Well i don't have a set diet at all, i just eat anything in the cupboard, i definitely don't meet my zinc, magnesium needs if that's what you need to know. I have the odd bit of meat for dinner (since its so expensive) but apart from that its basically noddles, milk (not within 3 hours of taking ZMA) Pasta etc.

Eggs. Cheap, plenty of protein and zinc. Most nuts and cocoa powder also have decent amounts of zinc. Spinach is a great food for magnesium too.

[HumanPerformance]

The effect of five weeks of Tribulus terrestris supplementation on muscle strength and body composition during preseason training in elite rugby league players.

It was concluded that T. terrestris did not produce the large gains in strength or lean muscle mass that many manufacturers claim can be experienced within 5-28 days.

Little bit flawed that study considering they only used one level of dosage - 450mg per day. Most products recommend at least twice that to be used. And there's no reference as to what potency or extract of tribulus was used. Being australian it was probably some budget shit from Musashi.

It's true that the majority of studies showing Tribulus' effect on mainly LH are done by the Bulgarian Pharmaceutical company Sopharma to push the effectiveness of their own product Tribestan. But it's more for it's positive effect on sperm motility/impotence etc in men as well as inducing ovulation in women and aiding conception. Daily dosage for this starts at 750mg and then increases to 1500mg (so 3 times what was used in the Aussie study) with total subjects of 212 which again is a little more than the 22 "roided up" (did I say that?) Elite Aussie league players.

http://www.tribestan.com/tribestan-clin ... dies.phtml

Tribulus doesn't work for everyone as it is basically just stimulating greater leutenizing hormone production. LH then tells your balls to produce more Test so it indirectly stimulates Test. If your LH or test levels are already high, say if you're 18years old, then you won't really notice jack. If you've been on the sauce at some point too it probably won't be as noticable as someone that's natural. Some guys can have shitloads of test in their system but then the body might not be able to use it for some reason - either receptors downgraded or too much SHBG.

I've used tribestan and at 6 tabs a day I found that it definitely works for me. Worked for helping my sister in law conceive as well. Trib can help chicks get pregnant but not much use for them if they want to gain muscle as it can't increase test in women as they don't have any balls - except those chick's that 2g's goes to when he wants to get his friday night special up on the k.

Good points raised Flex. Trib has been around as a feel good tonic for centuries. It does seem that potency is critical to have any effect & users should be looking for those supps containing a high level of extract. The Tribestan study done in 2002 is pretty recent & whether it was jacked up to support the manufacturers product we dont know but it did show some very interesting increases in LH, FSH, Testosterone & unfortunately Estradiol . I believe it does have a place particularly in the Natty Domain as many users have reported its benefits over the years. Also in the natty supps are Tongkat Ali & Horny Goat weed which speaks for itself

As far as ZMA is concerned it is definately bebeficial as shown by many blood tests on this site & has the added benefits of Magnesium & B6. Zinc is the crucial agent in this compound because testosterone cannot metabolise in the absence of Zinc. So best to supp zinc in any PCT & any natural weight training program around 40mg ED.

Good posts flex and musclenz.

[Sims]

thanks for the replies, i do have an intense routine as i am desperately trying to gain mass, but yea i must be doing something wrong.

Anyone else able to help me further?

An intense routine is only going to work if you have your diet sorted

whats your diet like?

Well i don't have a set diet at all, i just eat anything in the cupboard, i definitely don't meet my zinc, magnesium needs if that's what you need to know. I have the odd bit of meat for dinner (since its so expensive) but apart from that its basically noddles, milk (not within 3 hours of taking ZMA) Pasta etc.

Eggs. Cheap, plenty of protein and zinc. Most nuts and cocoa powder also have decent amounts of zinc. Spinach is a great food for magnesium too.

As above. You would be much better off forgetting about the ZMA for now and spending the money on more meat instead if its an issue.

[NewZealand]

Churr bros!

i think i will do that!

i will hold off on the ZMA for now, im getting hardcore acne from it anyway.