behind the neck barbell pressess

[nate225]

agreed not really worth it.Once the weights pile up only a matter of time before something snaps.

I do them rarely & not with a heavy weight, although I do heavy BTN jerks with 100+, but I figure the drive from the weakened position comes mainly from the momentum generated by the legs.

I do behind neck press with 140 kg for reps. I am not the most flexible person and I like to go really deep. My shoulders have never been as strong. I'm not expecting anything to go "snap". Each to their own I guess.

I agree they make you strong, particularly for benching, but like you I am not very flexible, so I limit these to less than 100kg. Works for me.

Heavier pressing for me has been limited to push pressing from the front as we don't have a good seated set up here.

I'm assuming you pre-hab / train your rotators being a big presser, in which case you're already a country mile ahead of most lifters whose rotators seem to have a fairly limited lifespan. As you say whatever works!

[Dr Squat]

I do them rarely & not with a heavy weight, although I do heavy BTN jerks with 100+, but I figure the drive from the weakened position comes mainly from the momentum generated by the legs.

I do behind neck press with 140 kg for reps. I am not the most flexible person and I like to go really deep. My shoulders have never been as strong. I'm not expecting anything to go "snap". Each to their own I guess.

I agree they make you strong, particularly for benching, but like you I am not very flexible, so I limit these to less than 100kg. Works for me.

Heavier pressing for me has been limited to push pressing from the front as we don't have a good seated set up here.

I'm assuming you pre-hab / train your rotators being a big presser, in which case you're already a country mile ahead of most lifters whose rotators seem to have a fairly limited lifespan. As you say whatever works!

Being an ex league player, I had pretty sore AC joint and rotators in my early lifting days. I tended to accept this. When I started training like a bodybuilder, I started to learn the value of training with a full range of motion. I'm not going to get out of my comfort zone and talk about science but my shoulders have never been stronger and are relatively pain free these days. I'm not saying you should load up the bar with 100 kg and go as deep as you can but progressively increasing your range of motion over time with a light weight may be a good thing.

I don't do any pre-hab or direct rotator work. I do however warm up thoroughly.

[nate225]

I do behind neck press with 140 kg for reps. I am not the most flexible person and I like to go really deep. My shoulders have never been as strong. I'm not expecting anything to go "snap". Each to their own I guess.

I agree they make you strong, particularly for benching, but like you I am not very flexible, so I limit these to less than 100kg. Works for me.

Heavier pressing for me has been limited to push pressing from the front as we don't have a good seated set up here.

I'm assuming you pre-hab / train your rotators being a big presser, in which case you're already a country mile ahead of most lifters whose rotators seem to have a fairly limited lifespan. As you say whatever works!

Being an ex league player, I had pretty sore AC joint and rotators in my early lifting days. I tended to accept this. When I started training like a bodybuilder, I started to learn the value of training with a full range of motion. I'm not going to get out of my comfort zone and talk about science but my shoulders have never been stronger and are relatively pain free these days. I'm not saying you should load up the bar with 100 kg and go as deep as you can but progressively increasing your range of motion over time with a light weight may be a good thing.

I don't do any pre-hab or direct rotator work. I do however warm up thoroughly.

Wise words as always Doc.

I would say I'd recommend pre-hab stuff for rotators - I've seen far too many top lifters retire early, or become less competitive because they tore rotators. (I will note this is often the older guys who lived on linear periodisation & were constantly benching rather than changing exercises regularly as we both practise. May be a case of wear n tear).

[cantygirl]

Personally, I like to choose an exercise for a particular muscle group that I can lift the most on, if the btn press was a last exercise being performed, then perhaps it has a place but bang for buck, it would be the last one I would choose. Also, shouldn't posture be the first thing you set before a rep of any exercise? To me when performing a btn press, you have to assume an unnatural forward head posture, that is not a good start. Each to their own.

[PeterDolan]

As a note re using too much weight, I've spotted Big, Bad Justin Rhys on these with, if I remember correctly, 225kg for reps using Docs full ROM. Not sure if he has had shoulder injuries but he seemed fine. Only needed help un/racking the weight

[rose]

I like Bradford Press I believe if you condition your shoulders to such movements then they are not "dangerous". A lot of people seem to develop shoulder problems because they have imbalances (e.g. by only working things they see in the mirror, say, or thinking that a certain exe is hitting a particular muscle when it's really not).

5 Ways to Increase Your Bench Press (by Jim Wendler)

...Train your shoulders - Use the standing shoulder press as a main/core exercise and also supplement with things such as the bradford press

Bradford Press

Begin by un-racking a barbell much like you would during a military press. Press the barbell so that it’s a couple inches over your head. At this point, lower the barbell behind your head. It should now resemble a behind the neck press. Press back up so that the bar is a couple inches over your head and bring the bar back to the front military press position. This would constitute one rep.

By not locking out the weight, you’re putting the stress on your shoulders and keeping it off your triceps. This is best used for high reps (8-15). You can perform these seated or standing, and usually a medium or wide grip is used. (Note: This is sometimes called a Rainbow Press

[Dr Squat]

I like Bradford Press I believe if you condition your shoulders to such movements then they are not "dangerous". A lot of people seem to develop shoulder problems because they have imbalances (e.g. by only working things they see in the mirror, say, or thinking that a certain exe is hitting a particular muscle when it's really not).

Well said. It's about conditioning and function!

Interesting how Wendler talks about the lockout as being the dangerous part! I bet most people would think of the deep stretch at the bottom as being more dangerous!!!!

[tomsammce]

Behind neck presses are fine. If u got prob with them then u either doing it wrong or u got a shoulder problem. Start light, condition and prep ur shoulders with a lighter weight before u let ur ego take over

[thatwaslight]

5 Ways to Increase Your Bench Press (by Jim Wendler)

Train your biceps for a bigger bench?? one less thing for deano to worry about.

[Dr Squat]

5 Ways to Increase Your Bench Press (by Jim Wendler)

Train your biceps for a bigger bench?? one less thing for deano to worry about.

You're quite keen on a few biceps curls? Or is that a dirty rumour? :wink:

[andy s]

I would have thought that the transition of alternating from front to back would cause damage to the shoulder but I guess thats why hes saying to lock out to avoid stress on the shoulders.

"By not locking out the weight, you’re putting the stress on your shoulders and keeping it off your triceps"

Am I interpreting that right?

Andy.

[thatwaslight]

lol, i'm more of a tricep man myself doc.

Does Eastside have one of these?

[Ronin]

Does Eastside have one of these?

Maybe at Eastside BDSM club? It looks like there should be a leather-clad chick behind him swinging a riding crop

[andy s]

Does Eastside have one of these?

Maybe at Eastside BDSM club? It looks like there should be a leather-clad chick behind him swinging a riding crop

Only if it was in Dunedin lol. That machine would be a complete waste of space. Looks really awkward.

[Dr Squat]

lol, i'm more of a tricep man myself doc.

Does Eastside have one of these?

Classic. Quest has something similar.

You must be due for another visit? Big Danny is making great progress.

[Dr Squat]

Does Eastside have one of these?

Maybe at Eastside BDSM club? It looks like there should be a leather-clad chick behind him swinging a riding crop

LMAO. This is how these threads get out of hand.

[musclenz]

Agree that behind the neck presses & puldowns are not dangerous if performed properly but they are very high on the scale of hazardous if existing shoulder injuries are present or flexibility of the shoulder joint is limited. I used to do these with far too much weight & I paid the price with torn subscapula tendons & other impingements. But they do work well in an overall attack on the shoulder & upper back. I dug up this article that seems relevant to many posts for & against on this thread. Please excuse the cut & paste but I believe its worth a quick look & makes many good points.

Behind the Neck Press and Behind the Neck Pulldown - Shoulder Builders Or Shoulder Killers?

By Steve Sawyer

A life long bodybuilder and fitness enthusiast, I grew up in rural upper Michigan and began my physical fitness journey in 1975 at the age ...

I will start this article with a disclaimer. If you have shoulder joint pain, front deltoid or rotor cuff injuries leaving you with pain and reduced mobility and limited flexibility in your shoulder joints or problems with shoulder dislocation you should probably pass on behind the neck press and behind the neck pulldown.

If you are sound in this respect then these two exercises may be worth a closer look because of their ability to more effectively stimulate the entire shoulder girdle, bringing much more side and rear deltoid involvement into play as well as the upper and mid trapezius while making it easier to maintain a good arch in the lower back because the bar travels in a straight vertical line with the top of the shoulders, allowing for complete stretch and contraction of all muscles involved, greatly increasing flexibility in the shoulder joints and allowing the elbows to be held straight out to the sides to give a more solid and stable base to push or pull from, this in turn allows you to keep your chest high without having to fight to hold this position as you do when pushing or pulling with the bar in front of you with the weight pulling you forward.

These exercises carry a higher chance of injury due to the extreme range of motion possible and the use of heavy weight in reckless form and have gotten a bad rap over the years, causing trainers to steer their clients clear from them, which is a shame because they can add so much to developing really outstanding shoulder development.

If the trainer was more confident and less ignorant in their ability to teach proper form and execution of these two movements there would be less unfounded fear and trepidation in using them. The number one rule is not to force a joint past what it can comfortably handle and second and just as important is to warm up thoroughly, doing three to five warmup sets with a weight heavy enough to warm and loosen the muscles and joints, pumping blood into the areas but not exhaust the muscles for the work sets to follow.

On the first warmup set do not try to reach full range of motion. As your muscles and joints warm up you will be able to increase the degree of flexibility with each succeeding warmup set until you can go from full stretch to full contraction with ease and no discomfort.

At first you may not be able to achieve full range but just keep practicing and with time you will grow more flexible. In the meantime just work to the edge of discomfort, not past it and let your body adapt at its own speed. Some people may never be able to reach full range due to structural constraints unique to their body, but just work to your own limits and ability and if you notice the beginnings of shoulder problems in the form of popping joints, muscle pulls, lingering pain, numbness, decreased mobility or pain along some point in normal shoulder rotation, stop doing these movements because you do not possess a structure suited to this extreme range of movement or the capacity to attain this level of flexibility. To continue on would be foolhardy and stupid because this kind of pain does not lead to gain, but chronic injury, listen to your body.

If you have the necessary flexibility you still must be careful to keep in complete control of the poundage involved through the full range of motion, never letting the weight dictate how fast the bar moves or pulling you out of perfect form. Do not use a weight that is too heavy, allowing only low reps up to eight, instead choose a weight that allows between twelve to fifteen reps on the first set, if you do two or three sets, keep the weight the same and you will be working your muscles with a varied rep range from fifteen to eight but in safety because your muscles are tired by the first sets of higher reps so that you are using a lighter weight for reps as low as eight than you would be if you started out with a heavier weight for eight on your first set.

You end up with more time under tension, higher blood supply to the muscles with less trauma on the joints. The full range of motion possible for behind neck press is from touching the base of your upper traps as it would rest for barbell squats to full extension at arms length above and slightly behind the line of your head with a slightly wider than shoulder width hand grip.

The placement of this exercise is most advantageous and effective as a finishing move after more isolated front and side deltoid exercises such as front raises, side laterals, and high pulls and before chest training so that the triceps remain fresh until called upon to push the front and side deltoids past normal failure, driving the growth stimulation to the bone.

The full range of motion possible for behind the neck pulldown is at full stretch with arms straight above and slightly behind the line of your head to the bar touching the base of your traps as it would for barbell squats with a full contraction of all back muscles, traps, and rear delts with a wider than shoulder width hand grip.

The placement of this exercise is best after more isolated rear deltoid and trapezius exercises such as bent over laterals, bent over reverse flys, and shrugs and before back training so that the biceps remain fresh until called upon to push the rear deltoids and traps past normal failure, driving growth stimulation to the bone.

With care and attention to detail these two exercises can add a lot of size and development to your shoulders, broadening and thickening all three heads as well as beefing up your traps as long as you totally focus on the work at hand, thoroughly warm up, never exceed the comfort range of mobility, employ moderately heavy weight for higher reps in perfect form and complete control throughout the full range of movement.

My name is Steve Sawyer, I am a certified personal trainer and I have been involved in the field of natural bodybuilding, health, and fitness for over 30 years. I have written hundreds of training programs for any number of physical goals ranging from losing weight and getting toned up to making serious gains in muscle size, and strength. I have an in depth knowledge of the inner working of how the body responds to training stimulus, extensive knowledge of kinesiology, biomechanics, anatomy and how they apply to exercise selection and performance. I have conducted exhaustive research and experimentation on any number of training programs, principles, styles, splits, philosophies, contradictions, psychological aspects as well as variations in hand and foot placement, angle of pull, body positioning, order of exercises and muscle groups, specific spot emphasis within a muscle or muscle group to attain balance and symmetry, troubleshooting problems in training stubborn muscle groups, mental blocks, and diet. Besides this I have built numerous exercise machines including power racks, smith machines, 45 degree leg presses, hack squats, high/low pulley machines, lat towers as well as a few multifunction home gym machines. I have also invented unique exercises and variations of exercises to hit areas of muscle that remained unaffected by conventional approaches due to body structure deviations in angle of pull and skeletal/muscular leverage. I am available for one on one training to help you reach your goals.

[train hard]

good read makes sense what he is saying

[Jigga]

nomd mnzs post

[Dr Squat]

Agree that behind the neck presses & puldowns are not dangerous if performed properly but they are very high on the scale of hazardous if existing shoulder injuries are present or flexibility of the shoulder joint is limited. I used to do these with far too much weight & I paid the price with torn subscapula tendons & other impingements. But they do work well in an overall attack on the shoulder & upper back. I dug up this article that seems relevant to many posts for & against on this thread. Please excuse the cut & paste but I believe its worth a quick look & makes many good points.

Behind the Neck Press and Behind the Neck Pulldown - Shoulder Builders Or Shoulder Killers?

By Steve Sawyer

A life long bodybuilder and fitness enthusiast, I grew up in rural upper Michigan and began my physical fitness journey in 1975 at the age ...

I will start this article with a disclaimer. If you have shoulder joint pain, front deltoid or rotor cuff injuries leaving you with pain and reduced mobility and limited flexibility in your shoulder joints or problems with shoulder dislocation you should probably pass on behind the neck press and behind the neck pulldown.

If you are sound in this respect then these two exercises may be worth a closer look because of their ability to more effectively stimulate the entire shoulder girdle, bringing much more side and rear deltoid involvement into play as well as the upper and mid trapezius while making it easier to maintain a good arch in the lower back because the bar travels in a straight vertical line with the top of the shoulders, allowing for complete stretch and contraction of all muscles involved, greatly increasing flexibility in the shoulder joints and allowing the elbows to be held straight out to the sides to give a more solid and stable base to push or pull from, this in turn allows you to keep your chest high without having to fight to hold this position as you do when pushing or pulling with the bar in front of you with the weight pulling you forward.

These exercises carry a higher chance of injury due to the extreme range of motion possible and the use of heavy weight in reckless form and have gotten a bad rap over the years, causing trainers to steer their clients clear from them, which is a shame because they can add so much to developing really outstanding shoulder development.

If the trainer was more confident and less ignorant in their ability to teach proper form and execution of these two movements there would be less unfounded fear and trepidation in using them. The number one rule is not to force a joint past what it can comfortably handle and second and just as important is to warm up thoroughly, doing three to five warmup sets with a weight heavy enough to warm and loosen the muscles and joints, pumping blood into the areas but not exhaust the muscles for the work sets to follow.

On the first warmup set do not try to reach full range of motion. As your muscles and joints warm up you will be able to increase the degree of flexibility with each succeeding warmup set until you can go from full stretch to full contraction with ease and no discomfort.

At first you may not be able to achieve full range but just keep practicing and with time you will grow more flexible. In the meantime just work to the edge of discomfort, not past it and let your body adapt at its own speed. Some people may never be able to reach full range due to structural constraints unique to their body, but just work to your own limits and ability and if you notice the beginnings of shoulder problems in the form of popping joints, muscle pulls, lingering pain, numbness, decreased mobility or pain along some point in normal shoulder rotation, stop doing these movements because you do not possess a structure suited to this extreme range of movement or the capacity to attain this level of flexibility. To continue on would be foolhardy and stupid because this kind of pain does not lead to gain, but chronic injury, listen to your body.

If you have the necessary flexibility you still must be careful to keep in complete control of the poundage involved through the full range of motion, never letting the weight dictate how fast the bar moves or pulling you out of perfect form. Do not use a weight that is too heavy, allowing only low reps up to eight, instead choose a weight that allows between twelve to fifteen reps on the first set, if you do two or three sets, keep the weight the same and you will be working your muscles with a varied rep range from fifteen to eight but in safety because your muscles are tired by the first sets of higher reps so that you are using a lighter weight for reps as low as eight than you would be if you started out with a heavier weight for eight on your first set.

You end up with more time under tension, higher blood supply to the muscles with less trauma on the joints. The full range of motion possible for behind neck press is from touching the base of your upper traps as it would rest for barbell squats to full extension at arms length above and slightly behind the line of your head with a slightly wider than shoulder width hand grip.

The placement of this exercise is most advantageous and effective as a finishing move after more isolated front and side deltoid exercises such as front raises, side laterals, and high pulls and before chest training so that the triceps remain fresh until called upon to push the front and side deltoids past normal failure, driving the growth stimulation to the bone.

The full range of motion possible for behind the neck pulldown is at full stretch with arms straight above and slightly behind the line of your head to the bar touching the base of your traps as it would for barbell squats with a full contraction of all back muscles, traps, and rear delts with a wider than shoulder width hand grip.

The placement of this exercise is best after more isolated rear deltoid and trapezius exercises such as bent over laterals, bent over reverse flys, and shrugs and before back training so that the biceps remain fresh until called upon to push the rear deltoids and traps past normal failure, driving growth stimulation to the bone.

With care and attention to detail these two exercises can add a lot of size and development to your shoulders, broadening and thickening all three heads as well as beefing up your traps as long as you totally focus on the work at hand, thoroughly warm up, never exceed the comfort range of mobility, employ moderately heavy weight for higher reps in perfect form and complete control throughout the full range of movement.

My name is Steve Sawyer, I am a certified personal trainer and I have been involved in the field of natural bodybuilding, health, and fitness for over 30 years. I have written hundreds of training programs for any number of physical goals ranging from losing weight and getting toned up to making serious gains in muscle size, and strength. I have an in depth knowledge of the inner working of how the body responds to training stimulus, extensive knowledge of kinesiology, biomechanics, anatomy and how they apply to exercise selection and performance. I have conducted exhaustive research and experimentation on any number of training programs, principles, styles, splits, philosophies, contradictions, psychological aspects as well as variations in hand and foot placement, angle of pull, body positioning, order of exercises and muscle groups, specific spot emphasis within a muscle or muscle group to attain balance and symmetry, troubleshooting problems in training stubborn muscle groups, mental blocks, and diet. Besides this I have built numerous exercise machines including power racks, smith machines, 45 degree leg presses, hack squats, high/low pulley machines, lat towers as well as a few multifunction home gym machines. I have also invented unique exercises and variations of exercises to hit areas of muscle that remained unaffected by conventional approaches due to body structure deviations in angle of pull and skeletal/muscular leverage. I am available for one on one training to help you reach your goals.

Where the executive summary cuz?

:wink:

[Dr Squat]

I was speaking to a PT who recently worked at a large commercial gym in Christchurch. She contacted me to let me know that one particular gym had now banned trainers from demonstrating behind neck press and behind neck lat pulldowns.

I can only presume that she was correct. What next? No squats and deadlifts? And eventually no lifting heavy things.

[jimjim83]

I was speaking to a PT who recently worked at a large commercial gym in Christchurch. She contacted me to let me know that one particular gym had now banned trainers from demonstrating behind neck press and behind neck lat pulldowns.

I can only presume that she was correct. What next? No squats and deadlifts? And eventually no lifting heavy things.

Name and shame!!

I find when I do them there is a bit more stress on my shoulders due to my inflexability but its just common sense to go a bit lighter.

Banning an exercise! Ive seen PTs doing all kinds of crazy shit with their clients on swiss balls, far more dangerous than behind the neck presses.

[Dr Squat]

I was speaking to a PT who recently worked at a large commercial gym in Christchurch. She contacted me to let me know that one particular gym had now banned trainers from demonstrating behind neck press and behind neck lat pulldowns.

I can only presume that she was correct. What next? No squats and deadlifts? And eventually no lifting heavy things.

Name and shame!!

I find when I do them there is a bit more stress on my shoulders due to my inflexability but its just common sense to go a bit lighter.

Banning an exercise! Ive seen PTs doing all kinds of crazy shit with their clients on swiss balls, far more dangerous than behind the neck presses.

I won't name the person but the gym is your Gym! Cityfitness in Christchurch. It may not be correct but it's a worry.

[jimjim83]

I was speaking to a PT who recently worked at a large commercial gym in Christchurch. She contacted me to let me know that one particular gym had now banned trainers from demonstrating behind neck press and behind neck lat pulldowns.

I can only presume that she was correct. What next? No squats and deadlifts? And eventually no lifting heavy things.

Name and shame!!

I find when I do them there is a bit more stress on my shoulders due to my inflexability but its just common sense to go a bit lighter.

Banning an exercise! Ive seen PTs doing all kinds of crazy shit with their clients on swiss balls, far more dangerous than behind the neck presses.

I won't name the person but the gym is your Gym! Cityfitness in Christchurch. It may not be correct but it's a worry.

Now im embarrassed! time to change gyms.

[Dr Squat]

^ I suspect it's a trend that we will continue to see as gyms become worried about litigation. I'm not sure if it makes any difference that Cityfitness PT's are employees and not independent contractors as they were under the old model.