WTF is "raw"?

[Dr Squat]

Why would it make your raw weaker?

Because you aren't training raw. The lines of lifting are very different. I'm not really sure if it would or wouldn't.

Yeah I get the lines are different but to get a decrease just seems strange to me. I'd expect a plateau at most cause the muscle would still be getting trained and I'd imagine (I don't know cause I've never trained like a PLer) but you'd still be doing board presses etc

I hear you bro. But if Tom stops doing barbell curls for a few weeks and does cable preacher curls for a few weeks, his barbell curl will probably drop away. Eventually it will come back once he returns to doing barbell curls.

[PeterDolan]

Nate, cheers I think your explanation makes the most sense.

Doc, I hear what ya saying

But from what the both of you guys said it just validates (in my eyes) that the athlete isn't doing as much work in a shirt

We'll agree to disagree here

Once again though, the numbers are still being put up so they count, I'm not trying to take that away from anyone

[nate225]

Nate, cheers I think your explanation makes the most sense.

Doc, I hear what ya saying

But from what the both of you guys said it just validates (in my eyes) that the athlete isn't doing as much work in a shirt

We'll agree to disagree here

Once again though, the numbers are still being put up so they count, I'm not trying to take that away from anyone

Lap times in a V8 Supercar & a F1 car differ and can't really be directly compared. Benching is the same. A good raw bench is a good raw bench, and a good shirted bench is a good shirted bench. They have no real comparison.

To a lesser extent benching in an IPF shirt & benching in a triple ply or open back shirt can't really be compared (kinda like the V8 vs F1 scenario).

Comparing a custom triple ply, scoop neck shirted bench (or a denim, or one of Mendy's custom shirts) & a raw bench is probably the extreme (like running a lap against an F1 car!).

[nate225]

But from what the both of you guys said it just validates (in my eyes) that the athlete isn't doing as much work in a shirt

I disagree, on a technical basis!

If I can bench 170 raw for a 1RM, then I shirt up and bench 210 for a 1RM, am I not going to be still exerting the same maximal force? The shirt just picks up the extra kilos.

So I'm still doing as much work, but the numbers just aren't comparable. Semantics I suppose! :pfft: :grin:

[Gasp]

But from what the both of you guys said it just validates (in my eyes) that the athlete isn't doing as much work in a shirt

I disagree, on a technical basis!

If I can bench 170 raw for a 1RM, then I shirt up and bench 210 for a 1RM, am I not going to be still exerting the same maximal force? The shirt just picks up the extra kilos.

So I'm still doing as much work, but the numbers just aren't comparable. Semantics I suppose! :pfft: :grin:

Have to agree with you here Nate (a rare moment! :pfft: )

I seem to remember tuning accidentally into the womens swimming at the last olympics and seeing these one-piece racing suits being introduced.

I assume that they could probably get a far faster time in these things than the previous traditional one-piece.

[Best Bench]

But from what the both of you guys said it just validates (in my eyes) that the athlete isn't doing as much work in a shirt

I disagree, on a technical basis!

If I can bench 170 raw for a 1RM, then I shirt up and bench 210 for a 1RM, am I not going to be still exerting the same maximal force? The shirt just picks up the extra kilos.

So I'm still doing as much work, but the numbers just aren't comparable. Semantics I suppose! :pfft: :grin:

Have to agree with you here Nate (a rare moment! :pfft: )

I seem to remember tuning accidentally into the womens swimming at the last olympics and seeing these one-piece racing suits being introduced.

I assume that they could probably get a far faster time in these things than the previous traditional one-piece.

Nice example there with the swimsuits. The person that finishes first wins so if the rules allow you to use a suit that makes you faster then you would be stupid not to use one.

With Nates example you could argue you are working harder with a shirt. You are still exerting maximal effort at the bottom. At the top there is less help from the shirt so the triceps will be working harder to lockout the 210kg. Benching raw your triceps are only locking out the 170kg.

[Phedder]

So someone who is reasonably experienced with shirted benching, and has developed strong triceps from this, should never have trouble locking out a raw bench if they can get it off their chest?

[nate225]

I disagree, on a technical basis!

If I can bench 170 raw for a 1RM, then I shirt up and bench 210 for a 1RM, am I not going to be still exerting the same maximal force? The shirt just picks up the extra kilos.

So I'm still doing as much work, but the numbers just aren't comparable. Semantics I suppose! :pfft: :grin:

Have to agree with you here Nate (a rare moment! :pfft: )

I seem to remember tuning accidentally into the womens swimming at the last olympics and seeing these one-piece racing suits being introduced.

I assume that they could probably get a far faster time in these things than the previous traditional one-piece.

Nice example there with the swimsuits. The person that finishes first wins so if the rules allow you to use a suit that makes you faster then you would be stupid not to use one.

With Nates example you could argue you are working harder with a shirt. You are still exerting maximal effort at the bottom. At the top there is less help from the shirt so the triceps will be working harder to lockout the 210kg. Benching raw your triceps are only locking out the 170kg.

But you may only be pushing 150 or less from the chest with the elastic potential energy of the shirt being converted to kinetic energy.

I say the same amount of work. Pete says less. You say more.

Does it really matter - not really.

But if it comes down to a debate if you could pull more sluzzas in a tight golds gym t-shirt on New Years, now thats a life or death debate! Eh Tom! :pfft: :pfft: :grin:

[Grover]

Have to agree with you here Nate (a rare moment! :pfft: )

I seem to remember tuning accidentally into the womens swimming at the last olympics and seeing these one-piece racing suits being introduced.

I assume that they could probably get a far faster time in these things than the previous traditional one-piece.

Nice example there with the swimsuits. The person that finishes first wins so if the rules allow you to use a suit that makes you faster then you would be stupid not to use one.

With Nates example you could argue you are working harder with a shirt. You are still exerting maximal effort at the bottom. At the top there is less help from the shirt so the triceps will be working harder to lockout the 210kg. Benching raw your triceps are only locking out the 170kg.

But you may only be pushing 150 or less from the chest with the elastic potential energy of the shirt being converted to kinetic energy.

I say the same amount of work. Pete says less. You say more.

Does it really matter - not really.

But if it comes down to a debate if you could pull more sluzzas in a tight golds gym t-shirt on New Years, now thats a life or death debate! Eh Tom! :pfft: :pfft: :grin:

as opposed to a zimmer frame?

[tinytraps]

So someone who is reasonably experienced with shirted benching, and has developed strong triceps from this, should never have trouble locking out a raw bench if they can get it off their chest?

If you get it off your chest you should have no trouble locking it out anyway.

[thatwaslight]

Really? when ever i'm at or very close to my max i can fly the bar off my chest then get completely stuck close to lock out

[tinytraps]

Well I would say that its more a technical issue unless you have really really bad triceps. Ive never met someone who could 2board less than their max

[Phedder]

Every Bench I've ever missed has still made it at least 6 inches or so off my chest and then stalled.

[thatwaslight]

Every Bench I've ever missed has still made it at least 6 inches or so off my chest and then stalled.

same with me mate, and yeah i think its because i have really bad triceps

[nate225]

Going off topic, and purely IMHO, raw benches are often missed in that 'in between' phase as the bar travels off the chest and before it hits the true 'lockout' position. Personally I reckon this can be due to not generating enough speed / momentum off the chest to get the bar high enough to allow the triceps to push it through the lockout.

In that case its the chest that is the weak point, not the triceps as many assume. People in this scenario probably get more from a bench shirt than those who are fast off the chest, as it masks a weak point.

My 10 cents.

[Phedder]

Every Bench I've ever missed has still made it at least 6 inches or so off my chest and then stalled.

same with me mate, and yeah i think its because i have really bad triceps

Was definitely my case when I first started taking training more seriously, since adding CG though I feel my tri's have come up heaps strength wise. Haven't done a max effort bench in a few months though, would be interesting to see where I'd fail now.

Going off topic, and purely IMHO, raw benches are often missed in that 'in between' phase as the bar travels off the chest and before it hits the true 'lockout' position. Personally I reckon this can be due to not generating enough speed / momentum off the chest to get the bar high enough to allow the triceps to push it through the lockout.

In that case its the chest that is the weak point, not the triceps as many assume. People in this scenario probably get more from a bench shirt than those who are fast off the chest, as it masks a weak point.

My 10 cents.

That's probably true in my case Nate. Near max efforts tend to be quick off the chest, grind through the mid point and then quick into lockout again.

[nate225]

Nate, cheers I think your explanation makes the most sense.

Doc, I hear what ya saying

But from what the both of you guys said it just validates (in my eyes) that the athlete isn't doing as much work in a shirt

We'll agree to disagree here

Once again though, the numbers are still being put up so they count, I'm not trying to take that away from anyone

Lap times in a V8 Supercar & a F1 car differ and can't really be directly compared. Benching is the same. A good raw bench is a good raw bench, and a good shirted bench is a good shirted bench. They have no real comparison.

To a lesser extent benching in an IPF shirt & benching in a triple ply or open back shirt can't really be compared (kinda like the V8 vs F1 scenario).

Comparing a custom triple ply, scoop neck shirted bench (or a denim, or one of Mendy's custom shirts) & a raw bench is probably the extreme (like running a lap against an F1 car!).

Apparently I've been paraphrasing again! Credits to Rose who quoted something similar a few pages back! :oops:

[Old Bull]

Depending on your programme and what you are using then it will vary. But with a good equipped Sheiko programme that is a 12 week equipped cycle. Your Raw max should increase at the same pace as your shirted 1 to 1.5% per cycle Bench only Squat and Deads are 2%+. If you change your Raw Bench line to match your Shirted (Neural Pathway stuff) then there seems to be no reason why both will not increase at the same rate.

Some have increased their Raw Bench considerably (Raw Bench Cycles) but the carry over to the Shirted was not the same, and visa versa doing a more Equipped cycle with less raw benches has the same effect.

Carry over I get around 13.5% maybe I just suck at benching, or I am not technically proficent like some my other peers on here. Tonka 300+kg Shirted Bench, 260+kgs Raw = 12%, thats what he gets out of his shirt.

[Grover]

Depending on your programme and what you are using then it will vary. But with a good equipped Sheiko programme that is a 12 week equipped cycle. Your Raw max should increase at the same pace as your shirted 1 to 1.5% per cycle Bench only Squat and Deads are 2%+. If you change your Raw Bench line to match your Shirted (Neural Pathway stuff) then there seems to be no reason why both will not increase at the same rate.

Some have increased their Raw Bench considerably (Raw Bench Cycles) but the carry over to the Shirted was not the same, and visa versa doing a more Equipped cycle with less raw benches has the same effect.

Carry over I get around 13.5% maybe I just suck at benching, or I am not technically proficent like some my other peers on here. Tonka 300+kg Shirted Bench, 260+kgs Raw = 12%, thats what he gets out of his shirt.

:shock:

:clap:

[nate225]

[Optimass]

Going off topic, and purely IMHO, raw benches are often missed in that 'in between' phase as the bar travels off the chest and before it hits the true 'lockout' position. Personally I reckon this can be due to not generating enough speed / momentum off the chest to get the bar high enough to allow the triceps to push it through the lockout.

In that case its the chest that is the weak point, not the triceps as many assume. People in this scenario probably get more from a bench shirt than those who are fast off the chest, as it masks a weak point.

My 10 cents.

I assume training with chains would benefit this. have never done it myself but if I was wanting to be more proficient through the mid point Id be willing to try something like this.

My bench has always been strong compared to others same/height weight. In saying that, as a bodybuilder my chest was my weak point asthetically. Strong but not thick. My delts and tricep however are strengths both asthetically and functionally. I remember only doing incline bench for the first year or so of training (my brothers recipe for fixing a sunken chest).

For me the biggest factor is personal technique - yes you have to know the basic mechanics and set up / posture etc but the best benches I have seen, day to day training, have been done by guys that instinctively find the right "grove" that optimises their own genetics. Another key element IMO is your breathing. I always breath deep especially on a PB or 180kg+ attempt - and start breathing deep about 45sec - 1min before I take the weight. atleast 10% in your breathing.

[Grover]

Going off topic, and purely IMHO, raw benches are often missed in that 'in between' phase as the bar travels off the chest and before it hits the true 'lockout' position. Personally I reckon this can be due to not generating enough speed / momentum off the chest to get the bar high enough to allow the triceps to push it through the lockout.

In that case its the chest that is the weak point, not the triceps as many assume. People in this scenario probably get more from a bench shirt than those who are fast off the chest, as it masks a weak point.

My 10 cents.

I assume training with chains would benefit this. have never done it myself but if I was wanting to be more proficient through the mid point Id be willing to try something like this.

My bench has always been strong compared to others same/height weight. In saying that, as a bodybuilder my chest was my weak point asthetically. Strong but not thick. My delts and tricep however are strengths both asthetically and functionally. I remember only doing incline bench for the first year or so of training (my brothers recipe for fixing a sunken chest).

For me the biggest factor is personal technique - yes you have to know the basic mechanics and set up / posture etc but the best benches I have seen, day to day training, have been done by guys that instinctively find the right "grove" that optimises their own genetics. Another key element IMO is your breathing. I always breath deep especially on a PB or 180kg+ attempt - and start breathing deep about 45sec - 1min before I take the weight. atleast 10% in your breathing.

:nod: I personally also try to keep breathing!

[PeterDolan]

Being dragged back up

So how do the different types of materials change a suit/shirt and how do the different styles change things?

Obviuosly they're all designed to increase your numbers but I'm guessing not all are created equal and does it depend on the individual (torso length/thickness/girth etc)?

[Cameron_R]

Being dragged back up

So how do the different types of materials change a suit/shirt and how do the different styles change things?

Obviuosly they're all designed to increase your numbers but I'm guessing not all are created equal and does it depend on the individual (torso length/thickness/girth etc)?

Anyone? I was also hoping to find out the answer .....

[ThePman]

Well said Alf, its becoming quite common, people using suits very early on before they have a decent raw bench. You showed at the Best of South that your raw bench is decent, and makes it easier to understand as to why you`ll need a suit to break records in PLing comps :nod:

I think this is the case for any equipment, honestly. From my thinking, getting in gear too soon (even if you want to compete) sacrifices some of the foundation development that needs to go on in a beginning lifter. I don't like giving time tables, but I don't think anybody with under a year of solid training should bother with anything more than a belt (maybe knee wraps...maybe), and my conservative side says that extending that out to 2-3 years might be even better.

I took that approach with Sportsgirl and a few others over the years, and it's always worked out better than getting into suits and shirts before muscles and tendons and ligaments have had time for some well-rounded development and adjusting to handling weights. I'm not anti-equipment, but I don't see the rush to jump the gun and suit up at the first chance, either. I think that does more harm than good, from a longevity standpoint.