Keto/Cutting Diet Advice

[PeterDolan]

Wont let me open it

What's it about?

[Phedder]

You need to carbs to gain mass

So even if you are in caloric excess with keto you will not gain mass? :-s

Bingo

Uhh, what? Has there been a tear in the time-space continuum or something? You're saying ketosis defies the laws of thermodynamics?

[PeterDolan]

So even if you are in caloric excess with keto you will not gain mass? :-s

Bingo

Uhh, what? Has there been a tear in the time-space continuum or something? You're saying ketosis defies the laws of thermodynamics?

???

[Dubble_D]

Wont let me open it

What's it about?

Thats wierd.. :-s

Book by Lyle McDonald: The ketogenic diet: a complete guide for the dieter and practitioner. Not the full version though...

What bout this link:

http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=JtCZ ... &q&f=false

[PeterDolan]

Wont let me open it

What's it about?

Thats wierd.. :-s

Book by Lyle McDonald: The ketogenic diet: a complete guide for the dieter and practitioner. Not the full version though...

What bout this link:

http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=JtCZ ... &q&f=false

I meant I couldn't get to pg 270

[Phedder]

If you're taking in more calories than you're body is using for energy you WILL gain weight, whether that be fat or muscle doesn't matter. This excess energy if not used will be stored, doesn't matter whether that energy comes from proteins, fats or carbs.

I'm not saying bulking on keto is a great idea, I simply don't know enough about it to make that call. Personally I find carbs the easiest way to get in extra calories for gaining weight, but saying you can't gain weight without carbs is just plain untrue.

[PeterDolan]

If you're taking in more calories than you're body is using for energy you WILL gain weight, whether that be fat or muscle doesn't matter. This excess energy if not used will be stored, doesn't matter whether that energy comes from proteins, fats or carbs.

I'm not saying bulking on keto is a great idea, I simply don't know enough about it to make that call. Personally I find carbs the easiest way to get in extra calories for gaining weight, but saying you can't gain weight without carbs is just plain untrue.

Gaining fat and not muscle isn't called bulking, it's called getting fat. Carbs play a part in hormones (importantly cortisol) so is important for muscle growth. The intention of a keto diet is to maintain muscle mass not gain/lose it

[Dubble_D]

Keto may not be ideal in Muscle gain but it does still seem possible while minimizing fat gain which is for certain during a bulk.

Gaining fat and not muscle isn't called bulking, it's called getting fat. Carbs play a part in hormones (importantly cortisol) so is important for muscle growth.

Thats why I thought CKD may have be an option.... :think:

Also regarding insulin spike necessary around the 'training window' could you use an insulin mimicker? such as cinnamon..... :shrug:

[PeterDolan]

CKD?

Also regarding insulin spike necessary around the 'training window' could you use an insulin mimicker? such as cinnamon..... :shrug:

Ummm I'm not sure, I thought cinnamon increased insulin sensitivity?

To me that means it increases the uptake of carbs into the muscle but I'm not sure, Flex may wanna take this one.

Just because you're on keto doesn't mean insulin isn't being released if that's what you meant?

[Dubble_D]

CKD = Cyclic Keto Diet

ie. 5/6 days-minimum carbs... 1/2 days carb-load.

Ummm I'm not sure, I thought cinnamon increased insulin sensitivity?

Ive read its an insulin mimicker and other places it increases insulin sensitivity.... that why I am like :-s

So how do you get insulin spikes while on keto?

Would be good to get info from those knowledgeable in this area...... :nod:

[Phedder]

If you're taking in more calories than you're body is using for energy you WILL gain weight, whether that be fat or muscle doesn't matter. This excess energy if not used will be stored, doesn't matter whether that energy comes from proteins, fats or carbs.

I'm not saying bulking on keto is a great idea, I simply don't know enough about it to make that call. Personally I find carbs the easiest way to get in extra calories for gaining weight, but saying you can't gain weight without carbs is just plain untrue.

Gaining fat and not muscle isn't called bulking, it's called getting fat. Carbs play a part in hormones (importantly cortisol) so is important for muscle growth. The intention of a keto diet is to maintain muscle mass not gain/lose it

You said gaining mass, so I assumed you meant any form of weight. Of which you certainly will gain if you consume a calorie excess, even without carbs. That being said I understand it's certainly not an ideal situation for gaining muscle and that carbs help illicit many hormonal responses important for building muscle (insulin comes to mind as well) but I'd be surprised if it was physiologically impossible to gain muscle without carbs. It's definitely more efficient having carbs to help illicit the hormonal responses, but I doubt without carbs these hormonal responses would completely stop and no muscle growth would occur.

That's just my hypothesis, I don't know the physiology specifically enough to state as fact. I'd be very interested to read anything that would prove that carbs are essential for muscle growth, and not just highly beneficial.

To the question of keto for a lean bulk I think we both share the opinion that it's not ideal, but I don't think it would be impossible. Again I just don't know for sure, would be great to see a response from someone with solid knowledge on keto about it's use for gaining muscle.

[PeterDolan]

CKD = Cyclic Keto Diet

ie. 5/6 days-minimum carbs... 1/2 days carb-load.

I did something similar, just one carb meal each week but I tended to go a little over board (problem of dieting while with a girl that likes chocolate). Still not enough to provide growth

Ive read its an insulin mimicker and other places it increases insulin sensitivity.... that why I am like :-s

So how do you get insulin spikes while on keto?

Would be good to get info from those knowledgeable in this area...... :nod:

Sorry I worded it wrong

You could follow a keto style diet but turn it into a low carb diet consuming carbs in the 3 meals around your workouts. You'd burn most of the carbs up during exercise

[PeterDolan]

I see what you are saying phed and I guess that I wont completely discount a keto diet adding mass but if it was to happen it'd be piss all

[Phedder]

Yeah compared to providing the body with ample carbs to help growth I don't think it would provide good growth, but it must still be possible. I've sparked my own interest in this now, thanks for making me think :nod: Would be great if someone could provide some solid knowledge on muscle growth with and without carbs, otherwise I may procrastinate from study tonight by searching for some journal articles :shifty:

[Dubble_D]

Sorry I worded it wrong

You could follow a keto style diet but turn it into a low carb diet consuming carbs in the 3 meals around your workouts. You'd burn most of the carbs up during exercise

Thats where the TKD comes into play :pfft: :pfft: :pfft:

TKD= Targeted ketogenic diet

I did something similar, just one carb meal each week but I tended to go a little over board (problem of dieting while with a girl that likes chocolate). Still not enough to provide growth

CKD is best with 1-2 full days of carb-up.

Did someone say chocolate =P~

[PeterDolan]

The purpose of the carb meal was to ensure T3 (or is it T4) production is not shut down, that's it

[Flex]

You don't need to be eating excessive amounts of calories to gain muscle. You train to damage muscle. Your body adapts by repairing/developing muscle fibres, you eat protein to aid this. If your resistance training is for muscle growth, not just to get a pump in your biceps for the nightclub, and you eat enough protein then you will gain muscle. You can gain muscle therefore lean weight on a keto, but probably more likely on a CKD than a straight keto. I only had lean mass gain during one cycle of the bodyopus, most of the time it was more maintaining muscle than adding.

Most guys use mass gain diet as an excuse to eat as much *** as they can fit in their mouths and tell themselves they will lose the fat when they "cut up" for summer. It's really just the lazymans way of gaining muscle and not having to think about counting calories or macros as you most likely are going to end up eating enough to gain muscle but also end up packing on the fat.

There's no reason not to be able to gain muscle on a calorie restricted diet or keto diet but it takes more work and you need to be a bit more anal about recording everything you do. Basically if you don't use a food diary in conjunction with a training journal then you probably won't be able to gain decent lean mass without doing it the lazymans way.

[Pseudonym]

Yeah, I've gained muscle on the Anabolic Diet, which is basically an easy CKD. The gains were pretty decent, but I don't know how much of that was attributable to the increased protein intake, or how it would have compared to a carb-heavy diet with a similar amount of protein.

I started out calculating my caloric maintenance using the Cunningham Equation. It put me at a whopping 4,200 calories, although I’d been deliberately erring on the generous side. As a lean bulk, that worked really well (probably because the AD had doubled my already-large protein intake). Noticeable size gains, with little to no fat gain. Also noticed a “hardening” effect, presumably due to the water retention disappearing with the carbs.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7715

[Phedder]

There's no reason not to be able to gain muscle on a calorie restricted diet or keto diet but it takes more work and you need to be a bit more anal about recording everything you do. Basically if you don't use a food diary in conjunction with a training journal then you probably won't be able to gain decent lean mass without doing it the lazymans way.

I've always been under the assumption that gaining muscle under a calorie deficit wasn't possible once out of the 'newbie gains' era or without the aid of PEDs? How can the body afford to not only repair damaged tissues but create new tissue when all the energy you're consuming is essentially being used just to keep your basic metabolic functions humming along? Please enlighten me or provide any good articles/studies for reading, would be very much appreciated :nod:

[Ronin]

I've long wondered about this. Before stumbling onto this site, no-one had ever told me that you can't lose fat and build muscle, or that you couldn't build muscle on a calorie deficit. Since repeatedly reading it here, I've tried to figure it out. Why can't the body use fat to power itself, sparing ingested protein for muscle building?

If you're in ketosis (or at least on low-carb), in deficit, and doing appropriate cardio that should take care of fat loss.

And if you're getting plenty of protein whilst lifting heavy things, that should take care of building muscle.

I've been hoping for a while that someone here can show mw where my reasoning was breaking down. And not just "everyone knows that..."

[vracula]

I failed at the keto diet my gym sessions were horrendous and imsure I lost muscle,I just started the intermittent fast diet and find it heaps easier to manage,it's only been a week weight loss had just been 400 gms but im gonna ive it solid month or two to figure out where Im headed and for the fist time I have actually started counting calories,came as a shock to me when I realised how much I was gobbling without counting.

[Optimass]

I think part of the problem is we (many) are confusing keto with low calorie, as ketogenic diet doesn't have to be under you caloric entitlement. Most people used it (or forms) to lower bfat. In calorie excess you still lose bfat when following a well structured exercise plan.

If you really want to put it to the test and your that way inclined (have run successful cycles in the past) - run a 12 weeks test only cycle on a full keto diet.

Yes I know the test is having an impact on protein synthesis but the only variable is the test - not insulin or carbs. Just a true keto - it works.

The issue with mainstream bodybuilders is they only stick to the status quo - i.e believe the myth "if I'm on cycle I must be eating as much as possible of everything 5000cal plus in order to get the most out of the cycle- i also need to have 5g of protein per kg of bodyfat". this is because we have been conditioned by misinformation and marketing companies around supplementation for decades - the paradigm dictates this - but it would need to change significantly for "mainstream" views to accept you can bulk on a protein/fat only diet.

In actual fact I have found running keto to work as effective as a conventional bulking diet under these conditions from a nett muscle gain stand point - and thats without factoring in more than 2.2g of protein per kg :nod: . The main difference observed was less bloat/water retension, less weight fluctuation at either end of the cycle - the weight that was gained pretty much stayed there - strength gains were still observed and recovery was as good too.

..........

[Flex]

Please enlighten me or provide any good articles/studies for reading, would be very much appreciated

Unfortunately there isn't a study out there to prove everything in this world. You could talk to the guys at Muscletech about it as they have a good research department that can create all sorts of interesting data, or you could just take my word for it this time.

I could try and see if I've still got my training and diet journal from 2001 and scan it in as an ebook for you if you want. Books wise, you should read the Body Opus by Dan Duchaine if you want a good book to read about it. As far as only being able to gain as a newbie or with PED's I wasn't on the sauce when I gained on the Opus and had been training for about 8 years but was on a fair few OTC supps which helped.

I think part of the problem is we (many) are confusing keto with low calorie, as ketogenic diet doesn't have to be under you caloric entitlement. Most people used it (or forms) to lower bfat. In calorie excess you still lose bfat when following a well structured exercise plan.

Truth.

[Phedder]

Unfortunately there isn't a study out there to prove everything in this world. You could talk to the guys at Muscletech about it as they have a good research department that can create all sorts of interesting data, or you could just take my word for it this time.

I'm not doubting you at all, I've always been rather skeptical of the 'common knowledge' about not gaining muscle on a deficit, unless a newbie or on gear. I've just never taken enough time to actually look into it in detail. It doesn't make sense to me that those two conditions can break the 'rule' but other ways cannot. I'll have a look into the Body Opus, I need something to read over summer, thanks. Are there any specific physiological processes which you could point me towards looking into more myself that may help me understand?

[Flex]

It doesn't make sense to me that those two conditions can break the 'rule' but other ways cannot. I'll have a look into the Body Opus, I need something to read over summer, thanks.

There's no rule being broken and no physiological reason that you can't, over time, increase lean mass and reduce bodyfat at the same time. It might not be occurring on a real time basis eg gain and loss at the same exact minute of the day, but over a prolonged period it should occur. Your weight training should be stimulating muscle growth. Your body uses amino acids to build and repair muscle. You utilise fat for energy during cardio or ketosis. If you train right, eat the right amount of macros and cals (and use the right supps) then you'll lose fat and gain muscle.

Are there any specific physiological processes which you could point me towards looking into more myself that may help me understand?

I don't know enough about human physiology to be able to give you a decent enough answer. Apart from massive oversimplification as above you're overreaching what's possible in a bb forum. If you really want to understand human physiology you're only going to be able to do that through books as opposed to the net which is too full of contradiction, oversimplification and bias. You need to go spend some time at a decent library.