Keto/Cutting Diet Advice

[Muzz]

Update!

So since Originally starting this post, I was doing a CKD since 26/8/10.

My Stats at the time were 88.1kg, 19.2%BF.

Measurements were (Try not to laugh, hahahaha)

Neck 41.2cm (16 ¼)

Chest 111.8cm (44in)

Waist 94cm (37in)

Arms (L) 39.4cm (15 ½) ® 40cm (15 ¾)

Forearms (L) 30.5cm (12in) ® 31.7cm (12 ½)

Hips 100.3 (39 ½)

Thighs (L) 60.3cm (23 ¾) ® 58.4cm (23)

Calves (L) 36.1cm (14 ¼) ® 36.8cm (14 ½)

I was eating pretty much what I originally posted, but had a higher Calorie Count at the time…..Required for that weight, (although had a small calorie deficit in order to cut size around the mid-section). My Weekends however (Carb Up) was a wasted effort being more on the splurge side of things). Hence my resorting to a Full Time Keto. Not only is it easier to stick to, it made sense, that when in Ketosis, your body is burning fat for energy.

In theory, if I stuck to the Keto over a longer period of time, Upped the Cardio and kept with the Training, I thought I’d burn more Fat in the long run…..Guess we’ll see aye?

As of the 25th October My stats were:

85kgs, 17%BF.

Measurements: (Again, try not to laugh)

Neck 41cm (-0.2cm)

Chest 109.2cm (-2cm)

Waist 89cm (-5cm)

Arms (L) 39.3cm (-0.1cm) ® 39.5cm (-0.5cm)

Forearms (L) 30.5cm (N/C) ® 32cm (+0.3cm)

Hips 99.8cm (-0.5cm)

Thighs (L) 60.3cm (N/C) ® 58.4cm (N/C)

Calves (L) 36.3cm (+0.3cm) ® 36.8cm (N/C)

Once seeing these measurements 2months later, I wasn’t too pleased with what I saw in regards to the deficits. This is another reason why I wanted to change things up and experiment.

Since starting these Diets, I recorded my Weights, first thing, every morning. Having only lost 3.1kgs in 2months, I was adamant it was mostly BF%. But seeing I had only lost 2.2%BF, It was then I decided changing things up, was becoming more of the optimum answer.

Now I have been on a Full Time Keto Diet for the last 19days (Since 25th October).

I have taken the additional advice from Pseudonym to reduce calories from Fat, 200cals a week. Try it, see how I get on, then reduce it again if need be. I started that ASAP, reducing my Cals to 2600 on the 28th (Day after Pseudonym’s post) for a week.

On the 4/11 to 10/11, I reduced them again to 2400cals.

I again reduced them on the 11th and am currently running on 2200cals a day. Protein is still the same, having only reduced my Cals from the Fats, and with some of those, it has also reduced my Carb Count (Even Smaller numbers, down to 21.2gms of Carbs a day).

Overall, I have noticed, I’m not as tired as I was when Carb Loading.

In conjunction to the reduction of cals, my energy seems to be the same, however somewhat Grumpier than normal…….My Bad!

I have continued to do Cardio however only three days a week (Monday, Wednesday, Friday) for the last couple of weeks, (45mins, 12deg Incline, 5.0km/h on the Treadmill).

My weight is never fluctuating up and down (Like it was on CKD), but instead constantly decreasing. In a way this can be seen as a positive. But then again there’s the fear that it’s muscle loss (Which of course there will be slight muscle loss with a deficit in Calories, but hopefully not too much).

Although it’s only been two and a bit weeks Full Time Keto, I decided to do my Measurements again First thing this morning and compare the difference.

13/11/10

Weight 80.5kg (-4.5kgs)

Body Fat 12% (-5%)….STOKED!!!!! (After doing the Tests [7 Bodypart Measurements] three times, to make sure this is Possible?.....Guess It Is!

Neck 40cm (-1cm)

Chest 106cm (-3.2cm)

Waist 86.4cm (-2.6cm)

Arms (L) 39cm (-0.3cm) ® 40cm (-0.5cm)

Forearms (L) 30cm (-0.5cm) ® 31.5cm (-0.5cm)

Hips 97cm (-2.8cm)

Thighs (L) 61cm (+0.7cm) ® 59.5cm (+1.1cm)

Calves (L) 37cm (+0.7cm) ® 37cm (0.2cm)

I will stay on 2200cals for another couple of weeks and then reduce them again by 100cals a week, instead of 200. (Unless someone advises otherwise……. Would really appreciate the advice in this Calorie Reduction side of things….How low can one go without doing harm to the muscles etc, correct reductions……Any Advice?)

I will continue on Full time Keto, Constantly Measuring state of Ketosis (Every 2days, as I have been), as well as Weight and Bodypart measurements. Do so until 20th Dec (Goal, Cut off Date).

NB: Doing all of this Naturally, No Supplements, No Anabolics. Just wanting to see what can be achieved by Diet and Training alone.

Appreciate both Positive and Negative feedback.

Cheers All,

Muzz

[Pseudonym]

Good stuff, Muzz. Congratulations on the progress! Don't suppose you've taken any photos for us to admire?

[Optimass]

Keep doing what you are doin muzz. tweak on ly when your results stagnate. rem: Weightloss may not change some weeks once you hit 12% as you'll get of transferance sometimes .. water/LBM/ reduction of BF%. The key for me has been bench marking the measurements taken off waist arm and thigh. Everyone has a different approach but it looks like you have found a system that works well for you.

Well done mate.

[Muzz]

So it has only been 17days since my last post, and thought I'd drop in a quick update.

As of below were my Measurements on the 13/11/10

Weight 80.5kg

Body Fat 12%

Neck 40cm

Chest 106c

Waist 86.4cm

Arms (L) 39cm ® 40cm

Forearms (L) 30cm ® 31.5cm

Hips 97cm

Thighs (L) 61cm ® 59.5cm

Calves (L) 37cm ® 37cm

Measurements, as of 0730 this morning 30/11/10 (Again, try not to Laugh)

Weight 78kg (-2.5kg)

Body Fat 11% (-1%)

Neck 39.4cm (-0.6cm)

Chest 105.8cm (-0.2cm)

Waist 82cm (-4.4cm)

Arms (L) 38.5cm (-0.5cm) ® 39cm (-1cm)

Forearms (L) 30cm (N/C) ® 31cm (-0.5cm)

Hips 95cm (-2cm)

Thighs (L) 60cm (-1cm) ® 59cm (-0.5cm)

Calves (L) 36.4cm (-0.6cm) ® 36.5cm (-0.5)

Calories, are just under 2000/day. Everything seems to be going to plan, however don't think I will get as lean as I wanted (6%).

Have upped the Cardio, Volume Training in the gym, 23days to go (My goal date).

Guess we'll see where I get to.

-Pseudonym, I have a couple of pics here, but will post them all in one hit.

-Optimass, Cheers for the Advice, have tweaked the diet, ever so slightly. As they say, Baby Steps.

Cheers All,

Muzz

[JOSEF RAKICH]

Keto sucks IMO, i would never use it and dont recomend it for a bodybuilder. A fat/obese person who has no interest in bodybuilding, then yes.

[PeterDolan]

Keto sucks IMO, i would never use it and dont recomend it for a bodybuilder. A fat/obese person who has no interest in bodybuilding, then yes.

Each to their own and I wouldn't do it again but you can't argue with guys like Dave Palumbo and the results he gets

[JOSEF RAKICH]

Each to their own and I wouldn't do it again but you can't argue with guys like Dave Palumbo and the results he gets

Yeah true, but then again Dave was on the gear.

[PeterDolan]

Each to their own and I wouldn't do it again but you can't argue with guys like Dave Palumbo and the results he gets

Yeah true, but then again Dave was on the gear.

Come on man, you can't use that as an excuse. No denying it helps but he's done work with natural people too.

So sick of people saying "yeah but he's on steroids"

[Ronin]

Each to their own and I wouldn't do it again but you can't argue with guys like Dave Palumbo and the results he gets

Yeah true, but then again Dave was on the gear.

Come on man, you can't use that as an excuse. No denying it helps but he's done work with natural people too.

So sick of people saying "yeah but he's on steroids"

What, you mean ya DON'T just pop a magic pill and wake up the next day with a body Jay would be jealous of??? :shock: Gosh :pfft:

[PeterDolan]

Yeah true, but then again Dave was on the gear.

Come on man, you can't use that as an excuse. No denying it helps but he's done work with natural people too.

So sick of people saying "yeah but he's on steroids"

What, you mean ya DON'T just pop a magic pill and wake up the next day with a body Jay would be jealous of??? :shock: Gosh :pfft:

There is, it just goes through the back door 5x a day :pfft:

Hmmm...why's gym rat still so skinny?

[Optimass]

Keto sucks IMO, i would never use it and dont recomend it for a bodybuilder. A fat/obese person who has no interest in bodybuilding, then yes.

Each to their own and I wouldn't do it again but you can't argue with guys like Dave Palumbo and the results he gets

Yeah true, but then again Dave was on the gear.

He also has helped a number of people in the pro ranks with his own brand of keto dieting. That's a pretty short sighted view IMO. I suspect you don't hold a lot of bodyfat off season which may cause you to have this view? Credit to you either way - your avatar pic speaks volumes .. you have a great physique.

But essentially you're wrong, it does and has had it place in bodybuilding for many many years. (not being precious here, just making my own point).

[JOSEF RAKICH]

Come on man, you can't use that as an excuse. No denying it helps but he's done work with natural people too.

So sick of people saying "yeah but he's on steroids"

Well that 'excuse' obvesiouly makes a huge difference in muscle break down.

Yeah sure he has done work with natty people, im not saying it cant be done on a keto diet, all im saying is that a diet with carbs is much more effective in preserving muscle mass, and you are more likely to lose muscle on a keto opposed to a carb diet.

Diet with carbs > Keto diet.

[JOSEF RAKICH]

He also has helped a number of people in the pro ranks with his own brand of keto dieting. That's a pretty short sighted view IMO. I suspect you don't hold a lot of bodyfat off season which may cause you to have this view? Credit to you either way - your avatar pic speaks volumes .. you have a great physique.

But essentially you're wrong, it does and has had it place in bodybuilding for many many years. (not being precious here, just making my own point).

Yea true he has, but IMO bodybuilders will do better using a non-keto diet. thats just my opinion, and i know alot of people who would agree with me.

[Optimass]

He also has helped a number of people in the pro ranks with his own brand of keto dieting. That's a pretty short sighted view IMO. I suspect you don't hold a lot of bodyfat off season which may cause you to have this view? Credit to you either way - your avatar pic speaks volumes .. you have a great physique.

But essentially you're wrong, it does and has had it place in bodybuilding for many many years. (not being precious here, just making my own point).

Yea true he has, but IMO bodybuilders will do better using a non-keto diet. thats just my opinion, and i know alot of people who would agree with me.

In what way? Do better?

[JOSEF RAKICH]

In what way? Do better?

OH MY FUCKING GOD..

I just made the biggest post ever then clicked post and lost connection couldent get it back and had to restart comp. f*ck, anyway here is some copy/paste of what i was on about

What are the top 3 goals when cutting?

1. Spare as much muscle mass as possible.

2. Lose as much fat as possible.

3. Not cause the person to lose intensity in the weight room.

Copy/paste below: (worth the read if your a keto fan)

Ketones are by-products of fat oxidation and the brain can use ketones for energy. This does indeed have a potent fat burning effect, as insulin levels will be severely reduced due to lack of carbohydrate intake. Low insulin levels correlate with high rates of fat oxidation.

Indeed, the ketogenic diet may be the single best way to lose the maximum amount of body fat in the shortest amount of time. However, if you will quickly refer to our goals during a pre contest diet you will notice that maintaining muscle is number one on our list, with fat loss second.

If one has not properly scheduled enough time to lose body fat and they are in need of drastic measures, then using a ketogenic diet may be their only choice in order to become contest-ready in time. Unfortunately, they will not maintain an optimum amount of muscle mass.

For those who have given themselves ample time to prepare, I do not suggest using a ketogenic diet. Instead, I recommend reducing carbohydrates, but keeping them high enough to possess the muscle sparing benefits of carbohydrates while still losing body fat.

There are several main reasons that I recommend retaining carbohydrates. The first reason being that carbohydrates are much more muscle sparing than fats during times of stress when glucose becomes a primary source of fuel (i.e. anaerobic exercise, injury, infection, etc) 3.

The muscle sparing effects of carbohydrates occur via several different mechanisms. When the body is in a low energy state, it may try to produce energy by converting amino acids to glucose. Carbohydrates prevent this since they can be easily broken down (and converted if need be) to glucose molecules. Carbohydrates then spare dietary protein from oxidation and these proteins can be stored rather than oxidized.

Carbohydrates are also very muscle sparing during exercise. When one lifts heavy weights, the primary pathway that is used to produce ATP (cellular energy currency) is the anaerobic or glycolytic pathway (as the name implies this pathway operates in the absence of oxygen). The only substrate for this pathway is glucose, which can be obtained from dietary carbohydrates or by breaking down glycogen (the cell's stored form of glucose).

If one is on a ketogenic or extreme "low carb" diet however, the body will need to utilize another source to synthesize glucose from. Since glycogen levels are low on a ketogenic diet, the body will actually convert amino acids to glucose and this glucose will be used in the anaerobic pathway to produce ATP. These amino acids will come from dietary protein, amino acids from the cellular amino acid pool, and from muscle tissue. The latter situation is where one would experience muscle loss. Dietary protein would be sacrificed for ATP production and the depleted amino acid pool would not bode well for protein synthesis rates, thus causing a net loss in muscle mass.

Carbohydrates are also muscle sparing because they are a cause of insulin release. Now I know your thinking, "but Layne, you just said in your intro that low insulin levels were great for fat burning!?" Yes, you are correct. I did indeed say that low insulin levels are good for fat burning. Insulin inhibits lipolytic (fat burning) activity and must be kept low if one wishes to burn a maximal amount of fat.

However, the pesky re-occurring theme of maintaining muscle prevents us from totally excluding insulin from our pre-contest diet arsenal, as insulin happens to be one of the most anabolic/anti-catabolic hormones in the body. Insulin binding to the cell membrane causes all sorts of reactions in your body that are beneficial to maintaining and gaining muscle tissue. Insulin inhibits protein breakdown and amino acid oxidation, thus promoting muscle maintenance or gain 1,2.

Insulin also has an antagonist (inhibitory) affect with regards to several catabolic hormones, including cortisol. Cortisol is a hormone that is released during times of stress such as dieting, lifting, injury, etc. Cortisol produces glucose by breaking down proteins, including muscle tissue. Cortisol is the primary catabolic hormone that is released when one lifts or does any kind of activity.

Insulin release inhibits the activity of cortisol by preventing its release from the pancreas, thus sparing muscle tissue from cortisol's catabolic effects. Furthermore, it is interesting to note that long-term exposure of cells to ketones (i.e., ketogenic diet) retard insulin-induced activation of the insulin surface receptor 4. This causes one to become extremely sensitive to carbohydrates when they begin ingesting them again after they finish dieting and could lead to an undesired post diet fat gain.

Carbohydrates act to maintain muscle mass while dieting by maintaining cellular osmotic pressure and cell volume. Cell size is an indicator of the "state" that the body is in. When cells are of large volume, it signals that the body is in a fed state. When cell volume is low it signals that the body is in a starved state. Without delving too far into the science behind this, trust me when I say that you would like your body to think it is in a fed state as this will increase the levels of fat burning hormones and anabolic hormones.

Cell size also indicates the anabolic state of the cell. When cell volume is high, protein synthesis rates increase. If cell volume drops, then protein synthesis levels drop 5,6,7,8. It is easy to infer we would like to maintain cell volume, especially when dieting. The problem with extreme low carbohydrate diets is they cause severe reduction in cell size.

The body stores carbohydrates inside cells as glycogen. For every gram of glycogen stored, the body stores around 2.7 g of water. Therefore, cells that have greater glycogen levels will also have more volume. One can see then how low carbohydrate diets severely decrease cell size due to severe glycogen depletion. Concluding, carbohydrates help maintain muscle by increasing cell volume.

One more issue to consider is performance. If you refer to the goals of a pre-contest diet, you will see that number three maintains that you must keep a high level of intensity in the gym. This is important for several reasons. If performance begins to suffer, then a person will undoubtedly lose strength. This could lead to a subsequent loss of muscle mass due to decreased stimulation from a decreased training overload. Therefore, it is important that performance be kept at an optimal level.

Low glycogen levels have been associated with increased fatigue and decreased performance in athletes (endurance, strength, power output, etc). Several studies have shown that consuming adequate amounts of carbohydrates before, during, and after exercise may attenuate the increased fatigue and increase performance.9-14

It is worth noting that one such study concluded that "the rate of recovery is coupled with the rate of muscle glycogen replenishment and suggests that recovery supplements should be consumed to optimize muscle glycogen synthesis as well as fluid replacement." It can therefore be concluded that an adequate supply of carbohydrates is crucial for maintaining performance and for proper muscle recovery.

Article written by Layne Norton

Natural Pro Bodybuilder

PhD, Nutritional Sciences

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/layne36.htm

[PeterDolan]

And yet Dave says that his diet spares muscle...

[JOSEF RAKICH]

And yet Dave says that his diet spares muscle...

Dave is bro-science lol, he reads too much flex magazines.

[PeterDolan]

And yet Dave says that his diet spares muscle...

Dave is bro-science lol, he reads too much flex magazines.

:doh:

[Phedder]

If one is on a ketogenic or extreme "low carb" diet however, the body will need to utilize another source to synthesize glucose from. Since glycogen levels are low on a ketogenic diet, the body will actually convert amino acids to glucose and this glucose will be used in the anaerobic pathway to produce ATP. These amino acids will come from dietary protein, amino acids from the cellular amino acid pool, and from muscle tissue. The latter situation is where one would experience muscle loss. Dietary protein would be sacrificed for ATP production and the depleted amino acid pool would not bode well for protein synthesis rates, thus causing a net loss in muscle mass.

If protein intake is high enough, muscle tissue will not be broken down to form glucose. Glucose can also be formed from the glycerol backbone of fats, which are plentyful in a ketogenic diet. The body also doesn't require much glucose at all, ketone bodies are sufficient for the majority of energy demands. The ketone bodies themselves also restrain muscle protein breakdown.

Carbohydrates are also muscle sparing because they are a cause of insulin release.

Guess what? Protein also causes the release of insulin. No need for carbohydrates there.

One more issue to consider is performance. If you refer to the goals of a pre-contest diet, you will see that number three maintains that you must keep a high level of intensity in the gym. This is important for several reasons. If performance begins to suffer, then a person will undoubtedly lose strength. This could lead to a subsequent loss of muscle mass due to decreased stimulation from a decreased training overload. Therefore, it is important that performance be kept at an optimal level.

Many people perform just fine in ketosis and manage to keep intensity up.

People can function fine, and maintain muscle whilst losing body fat rapidly on ketogenic diets. Seems like they certainly have a place in bodybuilding to me.

[JOSEF RAKICH]

^^^

Lol where do i even start..

Ok you use keto diet i will use moderate carb diet

[Phedder]

Start wherever you like. I've never actually done a prolonged keto diet, and prefer to keep moderate/low carbs myself just because it's easier to fit in with life. What I'm trying to say is that dieting isn't so black and white, there are many things that work, for many different reasons and for different people. You shouldn't just dismiss keto diets as useless for bodybuilding, because the fact is that they have been and still are very effective for some people.

[JOSEF RAKICH]

Start wherever you like. I've never actually done a prolonged keto diet, and prefer to keep moderate/low carbs myself just because it's easier to fit in with life. What I'm trying to say is that dieting isn't so black and white, there are many things that work, for many different reasons and for different people. You shouldn't just dismiss keto diets as useless for bodybuilding, because the fact is that they have been and still are very effective for some people.

Moderate/low carb here also. I wouldent say its useless for bodybuilding, but deffently a diet with carbs is superior to a keto diet for maintaining muscle mass. I recomend keto diets all the time to clients of mine, but thats only to people for example "fat average joe" who dont have any intrest in gaining or holding muscle etc, those who just want to lose "weight" as keto is probally the superior one for fat loss.

[Phedder]

but deffently a diet with carbs is superior to a keto diet for maintaining muscle mass.

See, I still don't agree with a statement like that. I don't view either as superior, there are so many finer details that determine their success. A poorly executed diet with carbs can result in plenty of muscle loss, as can a poorly executed keto diet. Conversely, a well executed diet with carbs can spare muscle, as can a well executed keto diet. There's just too many variables, and even if each diet were done as best they possibly could be I don't think a conclusion could be drawn of one being better than the other, as in the end it all comes down to the individual who is dieting as well. Some people will just do better on keto, and others will do better with carbs. Unfortunately it takes a lot of experimenting to figure out what's optimal for the individual, if only it were as simple as "this one is the best for everyone" :pray:

[JOSEF RAKICH]

but deffently a diet with carbs is superior to a keto diet for maintaining muscle mass.

See, I still don't agree with a statement like that. I don't view either as superior, there are so many finer details that determine their success. A poorly executed diet with carbs can result in plenty of muscle loss, as can a poorly executed keto diet. Conversely, a well executed diet with carbs can spare muscle, as can a well executed keto diet. There's just too many variables, and even if each diet were done as best they possibly could be I don't think a conclusion could be drawn of one being better than the other, as in the end it all comes down to the individual who is dieting as well. Some people will just do better on keto, and others will do better with carbs. Unfortunately it takes a lot of experimenting to figure out what's optimal for the individual, if only it were as simple as "this one is the best for everyone" :pray:

True on how there is no "best diet for every one" as everyone is different and responds differently, you have to find out what works best for you pretty much as there are some people who are carb sensitive so they do better with a diet low in carbs. However IMO i would still recomend a very low carb diet (even if it is only carbs in morning/pre/post workout times) than a keto diet.

[Pseudonym]

Nice to see some intense debating while still keeping things civil. I'm learning lots. Good show, chaps! :nod: