The sumo equation

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this is a copy paste of a post on another board, thought it was rather interesting. regarding how peoples body proportions affect their deadlifting stance, and which are more efficient. im gonna take my measurements, and will post them up. post -

If you're training for powerlifting, it's not quite as simple. Ultimately, you have to go with which style is more comfortable, but you can determine which method will allow you to lift the most weight biomechanically. To do so, follow this method.

1. Secure a tape measure to the wall with the zero end at the floor. Make sure the metric side (centimeters) is what you are using.

2. Stand with your back against the wall. Measure from the top of your shoulder to the floor. This will give you your total body measurement.

3. With a straight arm and your hand in a fist, measure from the top of your shoulder to the middle of your fist. This is your total arm length.

4. Raise your thigh to determine where your thigh rotates into your pelvis. Once located, lower your leg to the floor and measure from the top of the shoulder to this point. This is your trunk length. Also, subtract this measurement from your total body measurement to give you your lower body length.

Record these measurements and perform the following calculations:

1. Divide "trunk length" by "arm length".

2. Divide "trunk length" by "lower body length".

The resultant numbers will tell you the following:

1. Arm to trunk length ratio. Example: If your truk is 50 cm and your armi is 65 cm, divide 65 into 50=0.77. This indicates that your trunk is 77% of your arm length or that your arm is 23% longer than your trunk.

2. Trunk to lower body length ratio.

These numbers will help you determine which method, conventional or sumo, will allow you to lift the most weight by biomechanical standards.

CONVENTIONAL

If your trunk to arm ratio is less than 0.82 and your trunk to lower body length is less than 0.55, you should consider the conventional style. With your arms longer than your trunk, you'll finish the pull with the bar below your hip joint. This finishing position indicates that the initial starting position of your trunk (trunk angle) will be larger (more upright). This would indicate more activity from the quads as well as the hamstrings and glutes. A more upright trunk angle will also create a larger knee angle at the starting position, making the shift of the shoulders, knee, and hip more uniform-that is, they rotate in a biomechanically correct sequence.

SUMO

If your ratios are larger than 0.82 and 0.55, the initial starting angle of your trunk would be smaller (more inclined) and will therefore position you in a biomechanically ineffecient position. With your trunk more inclined, the activity of your trunk and hip extension muscles will have to follow a different, more inefficient pattern. This will basically result in increased activity from your hamstrings and glutes and decreased activity from the quads. This will also increase stress on your erectors and particularly the lower back and could cause rounding of your upper back. The solution would be sumo.

Hope this helps.

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views - 71

replies - 0

guess im the only c*nt who found it interesting!

[Pseudonym]

Well, I thought it was interesting, SFS. I just didn't reply at the time. :grin:

Have you measured yourself? What does the equation suggest for you, and is it right?

[samuelNZ]

Dont mean to bring up an old thread but I really think more people should try this out if they haven't already. Ive done the equations and found out that I'm more biomechanically suited to Sumo. Which I have never tried but always thought felt more confortable. After reading the different descriptions between Sumo and Conventional. - I realise that every single problem I encounter on conventional deadlifts is listed here

With your trunk more inclined, the activity of your trunk and hip extension muscles will have to follow a different, more inefficient pattern. This will basically result in increased activity from your hamstrings and glutes and decreased activity from the quads. This will also increase stress on your erectors and particularly the lower back and could cause rounding of your upper back. The solution would be sumo.

As of next cycle, I will be starting Sumos.

Thanks to Phed for linking this to me :clap:

[HarryB]

It was interesting then I broke out the tape and got all confused trying to measure stuff and work things out.. lol..

Short guys are better using sumo and taller guys better using a conventional stance I think is the simple equation. If you are a strong squatter then sumo is going to be a better option. For development though I think conventional is best! Longer ROM and more fibre recruitment.

[groovy]

good and simple summary i could understand. :grin:

Cheers Harryb.

[startinfromscratch]

It was interesting then I broke out the tape and got all confused trying to measure stuff and work things out.. lol..

Short guys are better using sumo and taller guys better using a conventional stance I think is the simple equation. If you are a strong squatter then sumo is going to be a better option. For development though I think conventional is best! Longer ROM and more fibre recruitment.

very wrong.

[Phedder]

It was interesting then I broke out the tape and got all confused trying to measure stuff and work things out.. lol..

Short guys are better using sumo and taller guys better using a conventional stance I think is the simple equation. If you are a strong squatter then sumo is going to be a better option. For development though I think conventional is best! Longer ROM and more fibre recruitment.

very wrong.

Gotta agree with SFS here. I think it's more in the arm length relative to the torso than anything else, as well as finding where you're comfortable. I consider myself somewhat tall (183-185cm, seems to change everytime I measure ) and I began deadlifting conventional, I'd always feel the strain mostly in my lower back, and lock it out right into my junk haha, not comfortable. With sumo I don't feel it as much in my lower back which is great, and lock out is a bit lower so much more comfortable

[Rookie]

It was interesting then I broke out the tape and got all confused trying to measure stuff and work things out.. lol..

Short guys are better using sumo and taller guys better using a conventional stance I think is the simple equation. If you are a strong squatter then sumo is going to be a better option. For development though I think conventional is best! Longer ROM and more fibre recruitment.

very wrong.

I've seen both stances used in comp by shorter guys so can't really say. Personally though, being 5ft6 I prefer conventional because sumo feels awkward, and like HarryB says for the purpose of over all development too

[startinfromscratch]

will reply a bit better now that i have time.

saying short=conv, tall=sumo is a bullshit generalisation. anyone who bothered to actually read the OP would not have suggested it. :roll:

its like saying all lean ppl are weak, or all plifters are fat. theres enough dumb shit that gets touted as gospel on nzbb atm, no need for more...

[samuelNZ]

I agree with Phed. I believe that it has more to do with arm length & torso length. Have tried it just on rest/mobility days and feels a lot more comfortable compared to conventional. Im not the tallest guy in the work (183cm) but have a very short torso and small-med length arms.

[HarryB]

So much anger lol I just go by what I see and experience for myself, purely anecdotal. I bow to your scientific wisdom.

[Rookie]

will reply a bit better now that i have time.

saying short=conv, tall=sumo is a bullshit generalisation. anyone who bothered to actually read the OP would not have suggested it. :roll:

its like saying all lean ppl are weak, or all plifters are fat. theres enough dumb shit that gets touted as gospel on nzbb atm, no need for more...

Know what you mean SFS, a lot of generalisation on this forum. The phrase in bold has been thrown around a lot :pfft:

I have a mate who is 6ft5 who uses sumo, and prefers it over conventional. Like Phed said too, he prefers sumo coz of lower back pains on conventional etc.

"Relax people, its just the internet" as PD would say :nod:

[HarryB]

Lol... you mean to say all powerlifters aren't fat? Damn what's next? Soon we'll be hearing that triceps kickbacks are the best exercise for triceps because science has shown they cause the greatest activation of the triceps muscle.

[Phedder]

Don't know why you think there's so much anger HarryB, just having a discussion mate. It's just that your gross generalisation was just that, a gross generalisation.

Here's the vid I've been looking for, took me ages to find it again;

I believe he's 6'4 or 6'5?

[HarryB]

Oh so it's a vid of the exception that proves the rule that you just showed me? lol... Just taking the piss Phedder. It was the language that made me think you guys were all angry at my ignorance. I shall do better next time I promise!

Oh and it's a gross generalisation because GENERALLY it holds true.

[Phedder]

Oh so it's a vid of the exception that proves the rule that you just showed me? lol... Just taking the piss Phedder. It was the language that made me think you guys were all angry at my ignorance. I shall do better next time I promise!

Oh and it's a gross generalisation because GENERALLY it holds true.

Wasn't intending to prove any rule, just provide an example of a very tall and very successful sumo deadlifter. I know there's more successful tall conventional lifters. I'd agree that often taller people are better with conventional, but I still believe that relates to limb length, as tall people generally have longer limbs. I just think making the generalisation you did is somewhat redundant in a thread that addresses the issue from a much more detailed perspective.

[HarryB]

uh huh... I think my blase attitude toward the whole thing is more related to the fact that we can overcomplicate any aspect of training when in reality it comes down to the individual trying both methods and finding what works best for him/her. And of course ones decision is predicated by existing injuries, structural weaknesses and goals.

Sorry for not taking it as seriously as it was intended.

[Phedder]

I think my blase attitude toward the whole thing is more related to the fact that we can overcomplicate any aspect of training when in reality it comes down to the individual trying both methods and finding what works best for him/her. And of course ones decision is predicated by existing injuries, structural weaknesses and goals.

Totally agree with you here. I'm not saying everyone should use this formula to figure out how to deadlift. If it says your best suited to sumo but it feels uncomfortable and you're weaker then it'd just be plain stupid to use sumo. IMO individual trial and error is always the most important aspect. For me I'd never even considered sumo stance, but always had lower back issues after deadlifting, and yes I was keeping an arch. Then I used that formula and apparently my proportions are better suited to sumo, so I tried it and it just felt right for me.

I suppose the moral is don't feel obliged to use a certain technique in any lift because the common wisdom dictates you should. Play around with different styles and find what works for you. Pretty much the maxim most should follow when it comes to anything strength and bodycomp related.

[tinytraps]

Everyone should just pull conventional, sumos cheating :grin:

[nate225]

Everyone should just pull conventional, sumos cheating :grin:

Said like a true Strongman competitor! :grin:

Not a lot of point pulling sumo regularly for a Strongman (as not allowed in comp) or a BBer (IMHO conventional better back / hammie dvlpr). However its still a great exercise to throw in from time to time.

When it comes to PLing use the original post as a guide and trial things. At the end of the day the weight off the floor is what counts, so whatever you can pull more doing (after a fair trial of each) should be what you go for, unless there are injury considerations.

[Phedder]

Everyone should just pull conventional, sumos cheating :grin:

But it hurts :cry: :oops:

Will actually do a set or two of conventional my next deadlift day, I wana compare my speed and comfort between the two at 100kg or so.

[startinfromscratch]

Everyone should just pull conventional, sumos cheating :grin:

But it hurts :cry: :oops:

Will actually do a set or two of conventional my next deadlift day, I wana compare my speed and comfort between the two at 100kg or so.

seriously phed, post up some vid of both deads in your journal. camera at hip height, side on.

will be invaluable 8)

[nate225]

Everyone should just pull conventional, sumos cheating :grin:

But it hurts :cry: :oops:

Will actually do a set or two of conventional my next deadlift day, I wana compare my speed and comfort between the two at 100kg or so.

Borrow a tendo unit from varsity....measure your speed. Alternately you could rig up a ghetto version with a ticker timer! Analyse speed/acceleration at different phases of the lifts.

[Phedder]

Everyone should just pull conventional, sumos cheating :grin:

But it hurts :cry: :oops:

Will actually do a set or two of conventional my next deadlift day, I wana compare my speed and comfort between the two at 100kg or so.

seriously phed, post up some vid of both deads in your journal. camera at hip height, side on.

will be invaluable 8)

Would be if I had a camera or a training partner haha. May be able to once I get back to uni as one of my flatmates wants to train with me, and he's a rich bugger so I'm sure his phone has a decent camera on it

Jeez Nate I don't mean to get that technical, mostly gonna go for feel here. Just been about a month since I've done any conv pulling so figured I'd check on it.