Personal Trainers / Coaches - a different perspective

[nate225]

There seem to be a few threads here over time that have asked about the value of personal trainers, whom I shall refer to from here on in as Coaches (it just seems less wanky!). From memory most of these threads play out like this:

Acknowledged BB Noob "I've been training on & off for x time, I want to get better, should I get a Personal Trainer?"

Closet BB Noob"Nah Personal Trainers are a waste of space"

Closet BB Noob 2 "Yeah just do this routine, or check out http://www.morebullshitbodybuildingadvice.com rather than waste money"

I'm being a bit tongue in cheek above but you get the picture.

For the most part IMHO the majority of "Gym Instructors" seem pretty low level (lets be realistic though for what the industry can afford to pay you wont attract qualified coaches). Don't get me wrong I still think most would be highly useful for a newbie in terms of teaching general exercise form (as opposed to any sports specific stuff or PMan's personal fav correct squatting form!).

Again IMHO established Personal Trainers vary from not much better (or worse!) than gym instructors to highly qualified sports scientists with proven results at international level. In my opinion it comes down to finding the right Coach for the job - all the tertiary qualifications in the world aren't going to get a BBer / PLer to elite level (or I'd suggest even competitive regionally) if the Coach has speciallised in endurance training and is light in terms of practical experience with BBing PLing.

Anyway where am I going with all this?

The AB's, to use a local example of professional sportsmen, have a number of Coaches. Someone like Mealamu would be dealing with a number of these, (Technical Scummaging Coach, Forwards Coach, Head Coach, Nutritionist, Strength & Conditioning Coach, Lineout Specialist Advisors, Sports Psychologist, Team Doctor, as well as a similar contigent at his Franchise & NPC teams). Another good example would be Usain Bolt, the fastest man in the world over 100m, you can bet he has a team of Coaches behind him.

Personally I have been 'coached' by a number of people over the years in different capacities, I'm going to take my chance to thank a few of them:

Phil Emmett (NZ / Int PLer, NZ Record Holder), Graham SciaScia (allround fountain of knowledge re: PLing, BBing, SM), Reuben Martin (General fountain of scientific knowledge & a great training partner), Mike Tabb (BBing knowledge, Training Partner), Dave Smith (IFBB Pro and Conditioning Guru), Matt Ashworth (Perhaps NZL's most naturally gifted SM), Janine Williams (Worlds greatest skeptic & Sports Dietitian), Rueben Simanu (NZ / Int PLer, NZ / Oceania Record Holder), Rona Simanu (NZ PLer, PLing training guru),Stephen Pritchard (Aus / Int PLer, Aus / Commonwealth Record Holder), Warren Trent (NZ / Int PLer & pioneer in training systems in NZL), Dave Hadfield (Sports Psychology guru), Matt Te Pou (NZ Maori Coach & Coaching expert), Nickoli Hansen (Wise beyond his years, DL guru & great training partner), Matt Rossiter (Strongman Oracle), Justin Keogh (Accomplished Sports Scientist & Strongman), as well as a longer list of those I've called upon from time to time for technical advice Jono MacFarlane (Wookie Powah Oly / SM / Highland Games specialist), Danny Nemani (Commonwealth Games Oly lifter), Mark Nichol & Louise Anderson (Cape Physiotherapy).

I've probably missed off more people than I've listed, and I certainly haven't even touched on those that have heavily influenced me with their literature. Sorry in advance, but rest assured I'm grateful :nod:

Back on track.....

If professional sportspeople, and moderate achievers like myself, have so much input from coaches, why is it that so many people online appear to have a problem with personal trainers? :?

Maybe it's the fact that someone is asking to be paid for a service (rather than the consumer getting a physical product?), or that some believe this service (information) is available freely online?

In some cases that may be valid, but beware, quality is always important and the internet has been known to have pitfalls in this department on rare occassions! :grin:

Apart from ACC-funded Physio and buying Dave Hadfield a coffee I've been extremely fortunate to have never had to pay for a coaching session in the past. I would conservatively rate the above coaching input (over a course of 20 years training) to have a cost value of thousands of dollars (and in terms of value to me tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars).

That said I am about to spend my first $100 to engage the services of a Coach, more as a sounding board / devils advocate / ideas man and to critique my training going forward.

Keen to hear others thoughts on this topic?

Nate

[nzmusclemonster]

Personal trainers can teach valuable new exercises.

[ThePman]

Most of it IMO is:

1. The picture above is how most gym regulars see personal trainers (and not without good cause); and

2. Most people get into a routine, put on their blinders, and never really go any further. Part of that is ego, part of that is not actually acknowledging that they're in a rut. If you think you know everything there is to know, you don't try to learn more either.

Personally I love talking shop with the guys that have done impressive things, whether the coaching or performance side of it. You can always learn something.

[nate225]

Personally I love talking shop with the guys that have done impressive things, whether the coaching or performance side of it. You can always learn something.

^^ That's why I hired you Matt! :grin:

2. Most people get into a routine, put on their blinders, and never really go any further. Part of that is ego, part of that is not actually acknowledging that they're in a rut. If you think you know everything there is to know, you don't try to learn more either.

I would agree.

Ego & comfort zones are key issue that hold many people back from taking a step towards achieving real performance, whether that be hiring a coach or simply moving from the cables to the squat rack!

[HarryB]

I think you may have hit the nail on the head when you talk about having to pay for a service. So many people think that they can get all the information they need off the internet and so don't need to pay a "coach".

The problem of course is of course in applying this fountain of knowledge to ones own training. A decent coach can teach you things in a single session about exercises you have always done that will improve your training from that point on.

You just have to find one!

[nate225]

I think you may have hit the nail on the head when you talk about having to pay for a service. So many people think that they can get all the information they need off the internet and so don't need to pay a "coach".

The problem of course is of course in applying this fountain of knowledge to ones own training. A decent coach can teach you things in a single session about exercises you have always done that will improve your training from that point on.

You just have to find one!

Good call Harry.

Another point you've made me consider is that many/most(?) people look at a personal trainer as someone who deals with teaching basic exercise form, and perhaps gives people a rotating weekly programme that is reviewed from time to time (to keep it interesting of all things!).

A good coach is so much more. My programming, with the imput of people I have mentioned, typically now spans 25 weeks to 1 year. Pretty short term and basic when you consider the multi year plans adopted by the Eastern Europeans for the last 30+ years! :nod: A good coach would be constantly reviewing the desired outcomes (goals) and modifying the game plan to achieve these (by identifying weakness / workons, changing volume/intensity to achieve outcomes).

Nate

[MrFooManCew2U]

Found some striking target mits at LDU Company out of China with free shipping to anywhere in the world. My friend bought a few first and then I got one in black. Price was cheap. I have seen others that were made of real leather but for what I do it works just fine. Martial arts stuff is on this page http://www.liangdianup.com/martialarts_1.htm or you can click through from the main page at http://www.LDUcompany.com

Just thought I would tell other people in case anyone out there was looking for some.

[steak]

another good topic..been a few lately..must be the rain

I dont like the term "personal trainer" mainly for the reason that that I have seen a lot of them at work and doing it very poorly. I think this happens when a person who has maybe dabbled with exercise decides that he/she wants to share the experience with someone else despite having very little knowledge on one subject let alone an all encompassing knowledge that would suit the many facets of exercise. The training they recieve from the various institutions doesnt help in many cases (not all) and both Rach and I have been subjected to the biggest feed of arse in our "PT course" which ended up being a course for complete plebs who may wish to sweep the floor or sign someone up to Les Mills or some other such facility which is not we were sold in the intial interview process. An exmaple of this was a 2 hour tutorial on blood pressure which did not include practical example or lesson - shameful! Im sure not all institutions are not like this but many are sending new trainers out there without a sound understanding of even the basics. This doesnt surprise me too much as we recently witnessed a "sports science lecturer" preform a set of extremely dangerous squats, get near buried in an overhead press and clearly demonstate that his skills were in front of the class not with the equipment

Many PTs (from what I have seen) dont know jack and many are "google trainers" which latch onto ideas and theories and run with them until the next great fad comes about. "scientifically proven training system" and the like are often mentioned in the ads

From our perspective and what we do at Coast Barbell, "coaching" is the main thing we do and is the backbone of our philosphy. We dont claim to know it all so stick to what we do know and what we have been coached on by the best in the "game" . Some of the names that Nate mentions have been instumental in our technique, and training practices and we are still learning every day. Im sure this is true for some of the best PTs out there (as I mentioned not all are wannabes) and these are the guys and girls that have done the hard yards, are doing the hard yards and have a wealth of experience behind them. They are doing a great job and are booked solid most of the time.

rant over and in short - choose wisely....dont got a pencil neck with a 60kg squat but flash talk and shiney shoes if you want to get big or a fat slob if you want to go faster.

Sadly though the general public often know very little about sports science, training principles, nutrition and can be blinded by the old "bullshit baffles brains" speak of a "google trainer". Good training is hard to find and wroth every cent and and every effort IMO

[BarBrother]

4000 qualified PTs are thrown into the industry each year from the different institutions. Of course there are going to be good ones and bad ones. I agree with alot of the sentiments on this forum in regards to PTs and how shite some are but it is the same in every industry , there are good and bad PTs. I think sometimes we lose sight of the fact that people lik us are not the main target market for PTs ( case and point becuase we sort of dont expect to have to pay for advice right or wrong as that mite be). I dont think we should expect PTs to understand as much as we do the ins and outs of PL and BB because experience counts for a lot in this industry. If we are looking for advice/help/support in our specialist area than look for someone within your network of people that you trust(it appeasr that you have done so Nate). I think sometimes it can be an ego thing in regards to having a "Coach' instead of a "Personal Trainer" but i agree here in regarsd that the person needs to be able to take a long term approach and the athlete development part is crucial and this is what sets apart the good and the bad.

[Dubble_D]

An example (not very creative, sorry!):

Take for instance a chef, there are many chefs and they all work with food. However each chef has certain strengths/interests/specialties such as italian chef's, pastry chef's etc. This is dictated by experience, interests and skills.

Same as personal trainers, they are classed collectively, however each brings there own experiences/interests/strengths so it is up to us to select carefully. Your not going to chose a fast-food cook to be a chef at a 5-star restaurant same as your not going to get a personal trainer fresh out of their course to give you experienced advice (you get what you pay for). That said, everyone has to start somewhere and it takes time to gain important skills and experience.

[BarBrother]

An example (not very creative, sorry!):

Take for instance a chef, there are many chefs and they all work with food. However each chef has certain strengths/interests/specialties such as italian chef's, pastry chef's etc. This is dictated by experience, interests and skills.

Same as personal trainers, they are classed collectively, however each brings there own experiences/interests/strengths so it is up to us to select carefully. Your not going to chose a fast-food cook to be a chef at a 5-star restaurant same as your not going to get a personal trainer fresh out of their course to give you experienced advice (you get what you pay for). That said, everyone has to start somewhere and it takes time to gain important skills and experience.

Haha, I was looking to put an example exactly like that in my previous post but couldnt find a real good example, but yours will do :pfft:

[steak]

this is true BB and DD but at what cost to the athlete while new PTs gain experience and skills. Should not the education they get from the various courses be better more comprehensive in content and practical applications before these new PTs are unleashed on the unsuspecting gym goer? I know in the course I did the very mention of BB or PL would bring a response of "they are minority of the general gym clientele: and when pushed further it was clearly evident the was little or no knowlegde of the subjects. Pretty sad when I think it would be fair to say that most guys join the gym to get stronger, lean up and/or add more muscle?

[Dubble_D]

this is true BB and DD but at what cost to the athlete while new PTs gain experience and skills. Should not the education they get from the various courses be better more comprehensive in content and practical applications before these new PTs are unleashed on the unsuspecting gym goer? I know in the course I did the very mention of BB or PL would bring a response of "they are minority of the general gym clientele: and when pushed further it was clearly evident the was little or no knowlegde of the subjects. Pretty sad when I think it would be fair to say that most guys join the gym to get stronger, lean up and/or add more muscle?

Agree with you there Steak.

So the best solution would be to correct the source of the problem and that is to improve quality of training which the specific institute is responsible for.

The thing that gets on my nerves:

Personal trainers should practice what they preach, so trainers should look and train like the part (all those psychically unfit trainers out there, shame on you) Just like I would never chose a fat nutritionist when trying to lose fat. just don't make Sense to me!

[nate225]

Great example Dubble D. :nod:

I copied & pasted a response on another forum to this one - had to share it as I thought Iscariot summarised his view on a good PT/Coach very well:

It might be a bit semantic, but there is knowledge and 'knowledge'. What I have seen with a fair proportion of personal trainers is that while they retain an adequate degree of theoretical knowledge their ability to implement said knowledge in a practical setting (and, indeed, their own experience in a practical setting) is limited.

I'll never ever forget being told at a shiny-land that, when doing GMs, that I shouldn't squat like that - even acknowledging my propensity to GM up my heavy squats

Frankly, give me someone who can show me what they mean instead of yapping my ear off about X,Y and Z - while I personally find the whole which muscle activates where fascinating, it doesn't tell me how to do anything.

Most personal trainers I have encountered can't make the transition from theory to practise - to restate the above.

Further, a lot of beginner (and not so beginner) Personal Trainers deal in absolutes - that is, X is bad regardless of whether or not their is a good reason for X.

What also causes a lot of personal trainers to fail is their appalling listening and rapport skills - thus we have cookie-cutter routines for a generalised archetype; 3x10 anyone.

That being said, I have encountered some good Personal Trainers, almost universally:

- They are excellent communicators and even better listeners

- They have a passion for ongoing education

- They spend time actively engaged in the activity they teach

- They have an open mind and are prepared to try new things

- They set timebound, realistic goals

My $0.00002

[rimma]

I would love to get a 'personal trainer' if I had the money, which I don't. I'm sure even the shitter PT's would be able to correct my technique and help me a great deal. There's only so much that watching vdieos on the internet can teach you :roll:

Probably mostly a matter of swallowing the pride. Getting help from someone with more knowledge and experience who can provide motivation would be a godsend in my personal opinion; I don't know a single person interested in weightlifting.

[BarBrother]

I'm sure even the shitter PT's would be able to correct my technique and help me a great deal.:roll:.

U would be suprised :doh:

and it pains me to say that because I am a PT by trade and have seen stuff which should see the PT fired on the spot.

[michaelk]

So many people think that they can get all the information they need off the internet and so don't need to pay a "coach".

...and yet in all my years I've never seem a computer or the internet spot a lift, correct form in mid set, or grind out 3 more reps through a personal connection with the trainee?

[steak]

^ :clap:

[bigmd]

Best Thread on NZFBB!!!

Totally agree with the 1st Post on here and most of the one following that.

As many of you know last yr. i employed the service do a coach for the 1st time> in past i have in the past been lucky enough to gain my knowledge from the likes of Steve lynch, Dave Smith and Share knowledge from some of the people mentioned by Nate as we have in past turned in similar groups. Although all of what i learnt from my coach i don't believed was the beast for me after 17yrs of competing i still learnt a great deal that i can still put into practice. while in USA i also employed the service of Hany Rambod for a session,(current Mr O, Jay Cuttlers Coach as well as the Gift Phil Heath) much like Nate it was a session of sounding off ideas and seeing if i was on the right track. It was worth every cent of the $200US for the hour chat ($385 NZ at the time)

i like to look at myself having 2 jobs, Im a PT for the masses and a coach for the serious trainer. sounds a bit odd but if i talked to some of my general clients the way i have to talk to my serious athletes too get the most out of them, the general clients may not come back.lol

[nate225]

Well put MikeD - I was going to quote your example at the time. As I have heard many wise people say "No one has all the answers".

Excellent point MikeK.

Damn, I'm concerned for my wellbeing when I'm agreeing with both you two in the same paragraph! :grin:

Rimma - no one said you have to pay for coaching. Sometimes you'll find someone who has a heap of knowledge they'll share for free (check my list over the last 20 years! :grin: ). I've coached a number of athletes over the years and have never made more than a free beer from it.

That said if you don't have access to the sort of people with the knowledge you need, it might pay to save up for a few consults, with a bit of time in between to do your 'homework'. With the right person you'll make more progress in a few months than you would in years.

Nate

[oldfella]

When I moved from general pissing around fitness to bodybuilding I sought out a trainer/coach who had been there and done it. PT's who haven't been there just can't pass on that valuable info and technique.

Yes, it cost me, but I didn't waste any time. At my age I don't have a lot and am not prepared to shag around "trying" to get it right by surfing untold web pages and talking to every wanna be in the gym.

Go to the source. They know, they've been there. Been lucky enough to have been under the supervision of 3 very experienced Pros. I feel I'm also lucky enough to be guided by a great bunch of experienced people right now.

Hard to quote the right example but if you want to learn properly, get the right people teaching you or providing advice. Don't ask every tom dick and harry in the gym. Get the right guy / gal and stick with them. It ain't gonna happen in 5 minutes but if you stick with them you will see results.

I only have good things to say about coaches. Get my vote. :clap:

[musclenz]

Perhaps what has not been mentioned here & what can be absent from a coaching perspective is the abilty to not only teach at the Physical Level but also at the Emotional, Mental & even the Spiritual Levels. These include the Mind (conscientious & subconscientious), the Personality & the Ego (for BBers ) & the Soul. The Physical Body is only one aspect of the Being & without addressing the many other complex aspects of the person it is difficult to achieve a state of connectedness with the Physical Body & achieve "growth". All aspects of the person must be in harmony to move forward.

[TonganTerror]

Great topic nate,

DD its a great thought to have potential PTs go through better training but I personally believe that the best knowledge is gained over time being on the floor "doing it". I dont think you can substitute time on that floor training, weeding out your own bad form, learning by listening to other gym goers whom some have a wealth of knowledge themselves and by correcting your own techniques then you will be more apt to teaching newbies.

Which leads me to commenting on the expectation of someone using a coach or PT some people clearly think that by having PT they will grow or get lean or faster stronger etc a lot of the punters dont do themselves any favours by expecting the PT to be a miracle worker "ive got a personal trainer yeah she trains me three times a week so Ill be lean for summer.....wanna go get some KFC :roll: "

[TonganTerror]

Perhaps what has not been mentioned here & what can be absent from a coaching perspective is the abilty to not only teach at the Physical Level but also at the Emotional, Mental & even the Spiritual Levels. These include the Mind (conscientious & subconscientious), the Personality & the Ego (for BBers ) & the Soul. The Physical Body is only one aspect of the Being & without addressing the many other complex aspects of the person it is difficult to achieve a state of connectedness with the Physical Body & achieve "growth". All aspects of the person must be in harmony to move forward.

so true Im sure I can see my quads grow when im in emotional harmony yet im also sure I see them shrink when I go through the rare tough time.......

[Pseudonym]

Wow, a lot of contenders for Post of the Month here. I think I've liked half the posts in this topic! :clap: