Shoulder and Traps Help

[olympia]

I think its time for a group cuddle :kiss: :kiss: :kiss:

[sharky]

For some reason it seems that my traps and shoulders are the "hardgainer" parts of my body

do u do deadlifts?.

Since ive been training ive done very little shrugs, pretty sure the Dlifts and other pulls have added some lbs to that area.

I know you guys wont like this. But no I don't do DLs. But hear me out, I've been training for only about 6 months seen some great results. Im following a programme a PT showned me of mainly compound excersises (bench, squats, pulls, dips, ect) but it didnt include the deadlift (think the PT will show me in a couple of months in a new programme) I simply have never been shown how to correctly do DL's and am not keen to F*^K my back. Don't get me wrong Im gaining mass but haven't noticed much in the traps area.

[Mrbig]

For some reason it seems that my traps and shoulders are the "hardgainer" parts of my body

do u do deadlifts?.

Since ive been training ive done very little shrugs, pretty sure the Dlifts and other pulls have added some lbs to that area.

I know you guys wont like this. But no I don't do DLs. But hear me out, I've been training for only about 6 months seen some great results. Im following a programme a PT showned me of mainly compound excersises (bench, squats, pulls, dips, ect) but it didnt include the deadlift (think the PT will show me in a couple of months in a new programme) I simply have never been shown how to correctly do DL's and am not keen to F*^K my back. Don't get me wrong Im gaining mass but haven't noticed much in the traps area.

hay man I know some guys that dont do shrugs deadlifts or squats and have massive traps some muscles will grow better than others if you wanna do shrugs in your training do them its up to you but yes the deadlift is most probably the best exercise there is but your right it must be learnt properly or you will injure yourself but when done correct and with decent weight it will add mass to your entire physique

[ThePman]

as for the mid and lower fibres of the trap theyre completely pointless to worry about

Tell me that when you blow out a shoulder because of poor scapular positioning.

[EMC]

as for the mid and lower fibres of the trap theyre completely pointless to worry about

Tell me that when you blow out a shoulder because of poor scapular positioning.

as for the mid and lower fibres of the trap theyre completely pointless to worry about your not going to bend over at a 45* and shrug as thats completely pointless and you also produce that short range of motion in your barbell rows.

why poor scapular positioning? what are you trying to imply by this?

[ThePman]

I'm implying that

1. Most people have such poor form on their back exercises that they don't adequately train scapular retraction and depression, which is a function of the traps III and IV, which you just said aren't important;

2. Weak scapular retraction and depression in proportion to scapular elevation (handled by the traps I and II, which are overactive and overdeveloped in most people due to point 1) leads to poor scapular control; and

3. Poor scapular control means that you can't position the scapulae properly during pressing exercises, and sooner or later you end up with a busted shoulder or two.

[EMC]

I'm implying that

1. Most people have such poor form on their back exercises that they don't adequately train scapular retraction and depression, which is a function of the traps III and IV, which you just said aren't important;

2. Weak scapular retraction and depression in proportion to scapular elevation (handled by the traps I and II, which are overactive and overdeveloped in most people due to point 1) leads to poor scapular control; and

3. Poor scapular control means that you can't position the scapulae properly during pressing exercises, and sooner or later you end up with a busted shoulder or two.

correct. i thought you were implying that you should retract while rowing. pman, i was implying that theres no need to train the mid/lower fibres like the upper fibres as you get them from all your general back exercises. therefore you wouldnt need to bend over at a 45 degree(or greater angle) and shrug bent over as thats pointless and you automatically do that movement when you row at the top of the contraction, or you should be at least.

like you said

they don't adequately train scapular retraction and depression

[ThePman]

correct. i thought you were implying that you should retract while rowing.

You should. How else are you going to train scapular retraction if you don't retract the scapulae?

pman, i was implying that theres no need to train the mid/lower fibres like the upper fibres as you get them from all your general back exercises.

If you do those exercises correctly, sure. Most people don't. Hip and lower back drive isn't training scapular retraction.

therefore you wouldnt need to bend over at a 45 degree(or greater angle) and shrug bent over as thats pointless and you automatically do that movement when you row at the top of the contraction, or you should be at least.

For the record bent-over shrugs are a great exercise for that region, and I use them a lot as part of my shoulder rehab stuff.

Expecting the big back exercises to cover it can set you up for problems if you're not doing them right. Most people aren't.

[EMC]

EMC wrote:

correct. i thought you were implying that you should retract while rowing.

You should. How else are you going to train scapular retraction if you don't retract the scapulae?

well part of any sort of row is to retract at the end of the lift in order to engage the mid/lower trap fibres and rhomboids. isometric contractions are great but theyre not a god send...its debatable that retracting the blades with a hanging load is dangerous. sure the traps are an extremely strong muscle but every muscle has its limits. eg deadlifting with shoulders retracted.

For the record bent-over shrugs are a great exercise for that region, and I use them a lot as part of my shoulder rehab stuff.

everyone does theyre own thing, its definately an exercise that would target those muscles well. i can understand for rehab you could articulate those muscles without too much rotation of the shoulder

[EMC]

Sent at: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:50 pm

From: gymsta

To: EMC

hahahaha bro you know jack all when it comes to bodybuilding. how many years you been training? 1?

i've been in the business 12 years now, respect your elders please

cheers,

gymsta

in response to my previous post:S gymsta if you want to talk more sh*t to me you can do it in public. please stop sending me private messages, thanks.

[nate225]

Can we stop with the personal insults people..... I'd hate to see another good thread get locked.

Nate

[Mike Zero]

For the record bent-over shrugs are a great exercise for that region, and I use them a lot as part of my shoulder rehab stuff.

Expecting the big back exercises to cover it can set you up for problems if you're not doing them right. Most people aren't.

I agree with EMC on this one. I don't think this is a valid point to argue, Pman. Surely you would agree that teaching someone to train their back properly is a much better long term solution than telling someone to do bent-over shrugs. Anyway, one could argue that the average gym-goer would f*ck up the bent-over shrug also. But when we are talking NZBB we aren't talking the average gym-goer, I think we can assume that most people here know how to train their upper back correctly.

[mr natural]

If your wanting bigger traps (body building here guys)then yes i would suggest doing some shrugs, i find em good to do with your shoulders as i dont do much deadlifting on back days. As mr big mentioned ,be careful not to over train em if you doing alot of deadlifting ect.. Its about figuring out a good break down/ recovery timing split for them within you workout configuration.

[ThePman]

For the record bent-over shrugs are a great exercise for that region, and I use them a lot as part of my shoulder rehab stuff.

Expecting the big back exercises to cover it can set you up for problems if you're not doing them right. Most people aren't.

I agree with EMC on this one. I don't think this is a valid point to argue, Pman. Surely you would agree that teaching someone to train their back properly is a much better long term solution than telling someone to do bent-over shrugs. Anyway, one could argue that the average gym-goer would f*ck up the bent-over shrug also. But when we are talking NZBB we aren't talking the average gym-goer, I think we can assume that most people here know how to train their upper back correctly.

Hey, whatever works for ya. My comments there were in response to EMC saying that "most people" won't have overdeveloped upper traps compared to mid/lower traps. Unfortunately, that is the case, as born out by the statistics on shoulder injuries and the correlation with imbalanced and/or weak scapular muscles.

How you choose to deal with that is your call.

[rose]

I do shrugs every week. There's a shrug competition in Eastonia this year and I'm going to win 8)

[Beef]

I do shrugs every week. There's a shrug competition in Eastonia this year and I'm going to win 8)

looking at those traps i wouldn't be surprised if you do win!

[Ronin]

I'm implying that

1. Most people have such poor form on their back exercises that they don't adequately train scapular retraction and depression, which is a function of the traps III and IV, which you just said aren't important;

2. Weak scapular retraction and depression in proportion to scapular elevation (handled by the traps I and II, which are overactive and overdeveloped in most people due to point 1) leads to poor scapular control; and

3. Poor scapular control means that you can't position the scapulae properly during pressing exercises, and sooner or later you end up with a busted shoulder or two.

Gotta go with the Pman on this one. Having just gone through 2 months of physio for an RC injury, a LOT of the work I was given centered around "setting the shoulder blades" ie retracting and depressing the scapulae.

[Riccardo]

I think a lot of people are missing the point here..

Op states that he recently received his program from a PT which centers around basic compound movements but he is yet to start deadlifting... correct me if im wrong but the deadlift is about as basic a compound movement you can get...

Now I had a massive back day yesterday centered around deadlifting chins and some rowing movements. My upper and mid traps are wrecked, as well as doms in many other places.

I don't do a lot of shrugging (only when I think they're looking a bit small :pfft: ) but when I do its usually on a shoulder or back day simply because I know I'm working those areas already when dealifting or doing lateral raises, upright rows etc. I have only incorporated the shrug into my routine recently after I managed to pack on a bit of mass from my compound movements.

My advice would be to start deadlifting as soon as possible, focus on good form on rowing movements, and lets say a month or two after deadlifting you still feel the need to do some shrugs then go ahead and do them.

Instead of getting hung up on your week points and trying to fix every little imperfection right now, achieve a good base of mass and start tweaking from there you will probably have less injuries and a better looking physique in the long run.

[Growth]

This may seem like a silly question, but when do you guys work out your traps? With your shoulders or are they more part of a back routine? I'm aiming to make my shoulders and traps bigger. Should I work my traps along with my shoulders or work them on back day? Any suggestions much appreciated.

I've tried working traps (exclusivly, via shrugs) on both a shoulder day and a back day, cant say there is any measurable difference. I think like the others have eluded to, as long as you've got all your big compound exercises down (including the suggested deadlifts), then just toss in the trap exercises wherever they work best for you. As long as your not sacrificing the important stuff like your compund exercises then your good to go IMO.

[crazybaby80]

Mine, an most peoples traps grow with minamial effort. I just do 6sets of shrugs once a week...

[evil action]

shrug baby shrug

[Optimass]

Train them with shoulders or back ... It depends on splits for me. If I split all pulling movements with pushing movements over a 3 day split ... I do them with Back/Biceps. If on a 4 day I do them with delts/Triceps. I usual do a couple of sets of upright row to complement them.

I'm not sure if I had just done deadlifts that they would have ended up the same size .. but I do get a lot of positive comments on them.

[gymstasmum]

My son is a genius. All you other clowns need to listen up, if you want huge traps.

[Beef]

My son is a genius. All you other clowns need to listen up, if you want huge traps.

get a life boosting.